Face the facts.

First topic message reminder :

I know we all support our teams with the passion of a first love, it is something or should I say someone you never forget, even if we move countries (well if I had to) we would still support our teams with the same passions.

It is high treason not to (well for some). But as much as we are passionate and optimistic at times how many of us are realists? Or is reality too far removed from what we would like to believe that we simply ignore the realities and build walls around the criticisms and doubters?

For me being a realist I often find myself very critical about the Springboks, and I must admit even amongst South Africans who are passionate about the Boks I rarely find someone who loves to talk Springbok rugby as often as I do, I find it a challenge to find supporters who knows our players as well and could tell you their weaknesses or strengths.

I look at our situation and think back to the days when we had a record superior to any nation against us with a longing memory of pride and trepidation. It only serves one purpose and that is to fire me up and make me want to rebel against the rugby administration in our country. I sometimes wish I chose a different path and went into journalism just so I could voice my criticisms on a public media format read by the all and sundry in SA, sadly the only format available are rugby forums read by people form other countries in the main and rarely cares whether we are on a downward spiral or not.

Anyway, for me the importance of not pulling an ostrich and sticking my head in the sand ignoring the realities of our situation is vital in not BS'ing myself when it comes to our chances of beating opponents or winning tournaments.

I probably over analyse the situation more than I should and can at times be very critical to the point where I want to slap the toffee out of someone, but hell that is who I am. Passion for your team doesn't disappear in the bad times, in fact I think that is when our disappointment provide us with more passion and creates a laager mentality to draw inward and begin the analysis in all earnest.

The question I have for you guys, are you realistic about your teams, do you prefer to ignore the opinions and criticisms of others, do you have a laager mentality, or are you blissfully ignorant and unaware of the reality you must face by choice?

In our case, I have little faith that we will win the Rugby Championship this year, will be too soon for us to compete in the next RWC simply because we are effectively starting over from scratch.

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:I think the SH needs. U20 competition as well, we go into these tournaments less prepared than the NH, SA played Argentina and that is it, I don't know if NZ or OZ played any games before had.

SA seemed very well prepared? They were a very good team again. The quality of school boy rugby in SA, England and NZ is very high.

We weren't, I said before the JWC that our backline is too small, our average backline player weighed more than 10 kilo's less per player than the top teams, it showed in defence during the tournament, our preparation in Argentina was a disaster, we lost 2-1.

I believe its here next year so the crowds will be interesting. Schools rugby is supported strongly throughout the country so I hope the matches are spread around.

rodders wrote:The 2015 RWC is a 4 horse race between NZ, England, SA and Wales.

But lets face it, NZ will win.

I'd be quite optimistic about our chances if we got out of the group. That's a big "if" though.

But lets face it NZ England will win

The Bachelor wrote:

rodders wrote:The 2015 RWC is a 4 horse race between NZ, England, SA and Wales.

But lets face it, NZ will win.

I'd be quite optimistic about our chances if we got out of the group. That's a big "if" though.

Whose chances are you refering to, Bachelor? The Single Men's XV?

The Bachelor wrote:

rodders wrote:The 2015 RWC is a 4 horse race between NZ, England, SA and Wales.

But lets face it, NZ will win.

I'd be quite optimistic about our chances if we got out of the group. That's a big "if" though.

IF

 Nah thats a big IF.

I think something messed up your big IF:laughing:

Stuffed up the font size...

SecretFly wrote:

The Bachelor wrote:

rodders wrote:The 2015 RWC is a 4 horse race between NZ, England, SA and Wales.

But lets face it, NZ will win.

I'd be quite optimistic about our chances if we got out of the group. That's a big "if" though.

Whose chances are you refering to, Bachelor?  The Single Men's XV?

Wales - although I guess you could apply the same statement to both England and Oz.

The Bachelor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

The Bachelor wrote:

rodders wrote:The 2015 RWC is a 4 horse race between NZ, England, SA and Wales.

But lets face it, NZ will win.

I'd be quite optimistic about our chances if we got out of the group. That's a big "if" though.

Whose chances are you refering to, Bachelor?  The Single Men's XV?

Wales - although I guess you could apply the same statement to both England and Oz.

Thanks. I didn't quite know.

Given the runner up in the pool of England, Wales and Australia will have to play the boks I would say its not just getting out the group which is necessary... its winning the group which is necessary. If you somehow get through the boks, you then have to beat NZ in the SF to progress.

That is something no team has ever done in RWC history... beaten the Boks & NZ in the same tournament.

fa0019 wrote:Given the runner up in the pool of England, Wales and Australia will have to play the boks I would say its not just getting out the group which is necessary... its winning the group which is necessary. If you somehow get through the boks, you then have to beat NZ in the SF to progress.

That is something no team has ever done in RWC history... beaten the Boks & NZ in the same tournament.

there is only 2 tournaments where it could have happened though (1999 and 2003). In 1991 SA wasnt participating and in the others well either SA or NZ won anyway.

I think only one team has ever beaten 2 of the SANZAR nations in the same tournament and that was England in 2003.

the boks beat NZ & AUS in 95.

FA, do you support the Boks in any way?

course I do mate... when they're facing Wales!!!

In all honesty you find yourself supporting them/or at least wanting them to win if you follow the players, go to the matches etc.

You can't one minute cheer one player on and the next minute want someone to kick his head in (so to speak).

I know the team better than I know the home nations sides these days.

it be between England and Australia for second place   

fa0019 wrote:course I do mate... when they're facing Wales!!!

In all honesty you find yourself supporting them/or at least wanting them to win if you follow the players, go to the matches etc.

You can't one minute cheer one player on and the next minute want someone to kick his head in (so to speak).

I know the team better than I know the home nations sides these days.

Good on you mate, your son is making you soft.  

Hi,Biltong I`m back and raring to go first it is as fact every team goes thru a peri0od of highs and lo`s.That applies in both Hemispheres,I cannot discuss your players but I can discuss relavent teams.
The Invincible Bok is/was a myth it is true you were the leading side win /loss up until the start of the Pro Era BUT.
ONLY the period just either side of WW2 were you invincible,after the 3-4-1 .Scrum became more or less Universal.Your relative decline started ,drawn series versus the Lions 1955,
lost Series to NZ 1956,France at home 1958,1964 ,Lions 1974.
Post 1950 the All Blacks were starting to catch up,ONLY during the aftermath of the 2-3-2 Scrum and mastery of the 3-4-1.[1935-49].Could the Boks claim to be World number one side
mastery being between NZ and SA.
Pre 1937 and post 1949 it was a case of Home side advantage being decisive in each case whether series or Super/Test results between them mostly.
Post 1984 when Non-White players were introduced into the Bok sides,rumours of player quotas etc.SA has become relative ly speaking by results a lesser side I make no inference
from the racial thing just stating a fact.[from an outsider looking in].
The policy of picking Overseas based players selected on reputation or NH form has been a disaster for the Boks.
The style of play and deviation from the established Bok Power game doesn't seem to have
helped.The fluid Super style has seldom translated to the test Level.
Fact is SA players as individuals,OR as a Team are as good as ever at any one Match,BUT not consistently.
Once the Boks would tour NH once every 10 years or so,NZ every 7 to 10 whole generations differently.
In the pro era contact with All Countries is as frequent as 2 or 3 times a year sometimes when Home advantage is crucial.ONLY the AllBlacks have a 50% or so away win record
versus the Boks.
With respect how can Home advantage apply to a team with there key players based in Europe?
JWC form this year showed ALL the SH sides had forgotten there setpieces,it is good that
another name is on the trophy.
BUT one swallow doesn't make a Summer RWC 2003 then 10 years in the doldrums DON`T
go overboard.
To early to judge NH sides this year,AUS injury first test was horrendous,SA looked useful
[by results].
Nz looked like a lot of experimental permutations giving players a chance not expecting
starting 15 .To be much different from last year ,when is "Captain Tackles" due back?

Alan - where have you been, man?
 
Not a peep out of you the entire Lions tour.

Good timing Alan, McCaw resumes today for his Christchurch club. After a bit of a break...a real break...he's been back in training, apparently focussing on more of a carriers role No speific plans re SXV playoffs- dont know if hes allowed anyway- take it all as it goes with the RC the target. Looks amazingly fresh without the customary battle scars he seems to always have...he misses those I'll bet.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/8912187/Christchurch-flanker-to-pack-down-beside-hero

Hi,George two Mini-strokes .hospital visits ,and Pc/cash problems meant no access till about a coupleofweeks ago.Just getting around to Pc usage again,good series win for Lions but Lhonestly could have gone either way.

Allright EMac.. I think tbh the first two games could clearly have gone either way- both virtual draws in my mind., The last game was dominated by the Lions so very deserved winners IMO..

 Good to see you back on here emack - Really hope things get a bit better for you. Take it easy mate, just one day at a time

Morning Alan, welcome back.

Alan wrote:The Invincible Bok is/was a myth it is true you were the leading side win /loss up until the start of the Pro Era BUT.

Yeah, I don't know where the reference invincibles come from, certainly not me.

Alan wrote:Post 1984 when Non-White players were introduced into the Bok sides, rumours of player quotas etc.SA has become relatively speaking by results a lesser side I make no inference from the racial thing just stating a fact.[from an outsider looking in].

Unfortunately that is true, but it is said the sons will pay for the sins of their fathers, I just hope at some point the Quotas can truly be a thing of the past.

Alan wrote:The policy of picking Overseas based players selected on reputation or NH form has been a disaster for the Boks.

Agree with you, and it is something I am totally against. Not only because of the principle but it holds back the evolution of the Boks by keeping players who's reputations mean everything to the respective national coaches

Alan. wrote:The style of play and deviation from the established Bok Power game doesn't seem to have
helped. The fluid Super style has seldom translated to the test Level.

Not exactly sure what you mean here, style of play at Super XV level? I doubt we will ever move away from our strnegths, we just need to utilise our backs more.

Alan wrote:Fact is SA players as individuals, OR as a Team are as good as ever at any one Match, BUT not consistently.

Consistency is a major problem, however the consistency stems form our inability to adapt to referee and how they interpret breakdowns which can lead to matches where our forward pack doesn't know how to dominate breakdowns.

Alan wrote:With respect how can Home advantage apply to a team with there key players based in Europe?

If you think it is bad now, wait for a few weeks, we will have Juandre Kruger, Andries
Bekker, Francois Louw, Ruan Pienaar, Morne Steyn, JP Pietersen, Bryan Habana and Zane Kirchner all favourites of Meyer in the bok squad, a potential 8 players playing overseas representing the Boks

Alan wrote:JWC form this year showed ALL the SH sides had forgotten there setpieces, it is good that
another name is on the trophy.

True, but to be fair the focus away from scrums has been an illness in some parts of the SH. Our problem is quotas have influenced the selections of our U20 for a few years, and size wise these guys aren't big. Our defence has suffered because of it.

alan wrote:BUT one swallow doesn't make a Summer RWC 2003 then 10 years in the doldrums DON`T
go overboard.

Well England has been there or there about for five years or so now. Wales have improved and Ireland isn't too shabby at age group either.

Alan wrote:To early to judge NH sides this year, AUS injury first test was horrendous, SA looked useful
[by results].

NZ looked like a lot of experimental permutations giving players a chance not expecting
starting 15 .

We'll have to see about the upcoming Rugby Championship, I don't know Meyer's mind set towards all these players going overseas, he must move forward and pick youngsters which short term will mean we have a very inexperienced Bok team.

emack2 wrote:Hi,George two Mini-strokes .hospital visits ,and Pc/cash problems meant no access till about a coupleofweeks ago.Just getting around to Pc usage again,good series win for Lions but Lhonestly could have gone either way.

 Jaysus. Take it easy then, youngfeller. Good to have you back and wishing you better health.

Biltong wrote:

Alan wrote:With respect how can Home advantage apply to a team with there key players based in Europe?

If you think it is bad now, wait for a few weeks, we will have Juandre Kruger, Andries
Bekker, Francois Louw, Ruan Pienaar, Morne Steyn, JP Pietersen, Bryan Habana and Zane Kirchner all favourites of Meyer in the bok squad, a potential 8 players playing overseas representing the Boks

Biltong,

I know we have a long injury list and that a lot of our players are leaving overseas, but I think that you have a bit of a grim perspective of where we are at currently.  Look at that list that you typed out.  Only two I know of you really wanted in your springbok side from what I have seen and they are on the older, maybe declining side already.  So what if Morne and Bryan has probably had their best seasons in a while lately.  I think they are replaceable.  JP (although one of my favourites, I think yours as well) he hasn't been all that good recently.  Zane is solid, but I think Le Roux is pretty much the favourite now.  Ruan isn't my pick for a while and so is Andries. Louw and Juandre in my opinion might hurt us, but that we will just have to face head on.

I am confident that we should be putting on a decent showing in this years Championship, we might even push for winning the whole thing.  I would really be dissappointed if we don't end first or second.

FerN wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Alan wrote:With respect how can Home advantage apply to a team with there key players based in Europe?

If you think it is bad now, wait for a few weeks, we will have Juandre Kruger, Andries
Bekker, Francois Louw, Ruan Pienaar, Morne Steyn, JP Pietersen, Bryan Habana and Zane Kirchner all favourites of Meyer in the bok squad, a potential 8 players playing overseas representing the Boks

Biltong,

I know we have a long injury list and that a lot of our players are leaving overseas, but I think that you have a bit of a grim perspective of where we are at currently.  Look at that list that you typed out.  Only two I know of you really wanted in your springbok side from what I have seen and they are on the older, maybe declining side already.  So what if Morne and Bryan has probably had their best seasons in a while lately.  I think they are replaceable.  JP (although one of my favourites, I think yours as well) he hasn't been all that good recently.  Zane is solid, but I think Le Roux is pretty much the favourite now.  Ruan isn't my pick for a while and so is Andries. Louw and Juandre in my opinion might hurt us, but that we will just have to face head on.

I am confident that we should be putting on a decent showing in this years Championship, we might even push for winning the whole thing.  I would really be dissappointed if we don't end first or second.

Hi Fern, the problem is Meyer will keep on selecting them, I agree we have the youngsters, but Meyer is worried about his win record, so instead of blooding the youngsters he will fall back onto these guys come Rugby Championship.

Just wait, you'll see.

said above about England:- "When we come face to face with an all out physical assault we tend to wilt. That needs to change and change quickly."

Just not enough power in the side lately. Hope Lancaster Knows this and is working to improve it. Otherwise we will continue to be the nearly men who run out of steam in the last quarter

Just to throw it out there but I think that you've started the cycle for change at just the right time, 4 years is too long for a continuous plan in rugby if you ask me. They say a weeks a long time in rugby, how long does that make 4 years?

208 weeks?

Taylorman wrote:Good timing Alan, McCaw resumes today for his Christchurch club. After a bit of a break...a real break...he's been back in training, apparently focussing on more of a carriers role No speific plans re SXV playoffs- dont know if hes allowed anyway- take it all as it goes with the RC the target. Looks amazingly fresh without the customary battle scars he seems to always have...he misses those I'll bet.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/8912187/Christchurch-flanker-to-pack-down-beside-hero

Taylorman, a quick question if I may. I read that McCaws last game pre-Crusaders was against the team that had a young Scottish guy Finn Russell playing at 10. He was there on a scholarship where we send two of our best youngsters to NZ to let them see that they are really quite kak at the game. Any word on how young Russell got on over the season?

Interesting..not up on Christchurch club rugby myself but I'll ferret around and see what I can find other than what you see from google.... Kia might have some insiders down there as well...