Things that have no place in rugby

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 22 Jul 2013, 4:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

Earlier today I made a rather cryptic thread commenting on something which I thought rugby could well do without: namely backs who feel the need to grow beards as if they were auditioning for a part in a shipwreck movie. You can get away with the Grizzly Adams look if you're a forward simply because you can get away with a lot of things when you're that size.

On Sunday night I watched the full Reds Ceusaders game. My understanding is that Crotty is growing his beard and won't shave it off until his good mate Fruean is back and recovered from heart surgery. I can make an exception for this much like hideous taches in Movember as it's selflessly minded. I don't profess to know the story of Dom Shipperley but if he doesn't have one he should be slapped silly by his team mates until he shaves that ridiculous beard off. I'm not saying a back can't have a beard but this don't come near me I'm crazy beard look is fooling nobody.

So apologies to those frustrated by my obtuseness but some of the comments did get me wondering. The wearing of skull caps, celebrating of tries, tattoos and long hair came up. So what do you think should be banned by the IRB? In no particular order and apart from Robinson Crusoe beards on backs or at least backline players here are things that need to go. I'm not interested in laws but I am in incidental things.

1. Halftime comments from a player with no interest in making one. Just leave them be. We know what they're thinking and we know they're not going to say what they're thinking.

2. Music to artificially generate atmosphere. This is a big gripe with NZ in particular. Fine at sevens but no Mexican trumpet at kick offs, no music after a try. Just let the game do the talking.

3. Video technology is all well and good when used properly. But often it is used needlessly and kills the continuity of the game. Sometimes it needs to be used and sometimes we all know the ref or linesmen saw what happened but just want to play it safe.

No doubt I will add to the list but that'll do for now. Get it off your chests. Don't hold back. It feels good!

by Knowsit17 Tue 23 Jul 2013, 2:59 pm

Gavin Henson?

by fa0019 Tue 23 Jul 2013, 2:59 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
fa0019 wrote:in the old days things were much more simpler... forwards looked like Richard Loe and Gareth Chilcott... backs looked like Andrew Merthens and Rob Andrew.

Then Jonah came around and this "girly" back broke the biggest and meanest forwards the game had to offer.... and the only person to successfully tackle him time and again was another delicate back... Joost.

Try telling that to Simon Goeghegan. Never missed a tackle on the Lomusarus.

I do recall Geoghegan chasing him down and tackling him from behind successfully in the RWC all those years ago... didn't stop the offload and try but still one of a few select players to take him down one on one.... probably can count the number of players on one hand.

Did anyone ever in a one on one defence ever get the better of lomu in a tackling situation?

by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 23 Jul 2013, 3:17 pm

Mrs Lomu. Those Tongans can be firm disciplinarians.

by fa0019 Tue 23 Jul 2013, 3:22 pm

I can firmly believe that he would do anything his mum said. She probably still gives him clips round the ear when he's being bad!

by Bathman_in_London Tue 23 Jul 2013, 4:21 pm

http://www.rugbydump.com/2009/08/1047/friday-funnies-how-to-stop-jonah-lomu-with-kearnseys-chalkboard

A little old this, but it was pretty amusing.

by R!skysports Tue 23 Jul 2013, 5:45 pm

Backs with scrum caps

Fake tan on rugby players

Quiffy hair that gets stroked sideways every 5 mins

Tashes - on anyone anywhere ever (apart from charity)

Coloured boots

Shoulder pads - it is not dynasty you know

Rules to stop a response to the haka

Splashdowns

Finger wagging at other players

Players 'reffing the game'

Scrum halfs - (they are annoying, although realise this might make for a different game)

Stupid designed numbers on the back

Scrum clocks

Kicking tees (let them use their heel like we did)

Kicking coaches on the pitch when kicking - WTF

Water breaks

Super slow mo for HD

Shocked

I see to have some anger issues here

by Scarpia Tue 23 Jul 2013, 6:14 pm

Riskysports wrote:Backs with scrum caps

Fake tan on rugby players

Quiffy hair that gets stroked sideways every 5 mins

Tashes - on anyone anywhere ever (apart from charity)

Coloured boots

Shoulder pads - it is not dynasty you know

Rules to stop a response to the haka

Splashdowns

Finger wagging at other players

Players 'reffing the game'

Scrum halfs - (they are annoying, although realise this might make for a different game)

Stupid designed numbers on the back

Scrum clocks

Kicking tees (let them use their heel like we did)

Kicking coaches on the pitch when kicking - WTF

Water breaks

Super slow mo for HD

I see to have some anger issues here

Ha ha. But I agree with all these. Can I add "playing down the clock". I know it's legal and I know I cheer when a team I support does it to win a game but it seems against the spirit somehow. Not sure how to stop it though.

by Mr Bounce Tue 23 Jul 2013, 6:23 pm

I REALLY REALLY hate it when the fly-half bounces the ball before kicking off. Drives me up the wall. It's a ball. It's gonna bounce!!! steam

by GloriousEmpire Tue 23 Jul 2013, 6:38 pm

I know I've left but I have to comment.

What about the disturbing trend where forwards feel the need to do things between set pieces? All this running in the open, popping up on the wing, "linking" back line play and generally trying on their side steps and body swerves and dummy passing. Please give it a rest. Lets get back to the glory days of Jason Leonard and Big Phil Vickery (now retired) for whom it was enough to prop and then amble from ruck to ruck flopping onto the ground and rolling around onto the wrong side?

by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 23 Jul 2013, 6:55 pm

With a name like Mr Bounce I would've thought you would appreciate the bounce. Things that have no place in rugby - Page 2 3933776953

Looks like you've put some thought and fist banging into your choices risky. clap

I would add to that fine list jersey manufacturers changing the design and colour (yes looking at you Nike and your really dark, dark, dark, dark blue jersey like an imitation pair of priests' black socks) of their test jerseys willy nilly just so that they can extract money each year by encouraging people to have the latest design. Even if it's ugly like the white collar on the latest AIG jersey.

by doctor_grey Tue 23 Jul 2013, 7:20 pm

dummy_half wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
kiakahaaotearoa wrote:It's a back's responsibility to look well presented to the ladies. Some differ greatly in their interpretation of well presented but they all became rugby players as boys for one thing. Even Neil Jenkins recognised this and pulled accordingly by remaining relatively clean shaven.
Absolutely, some clear thinking on this point.

I suppose there must be a lot of forwards using 606v2 because it seems periodically I have to remind people about how backs should be attired, act, and obviously dress. Backs do not have beards. Backs bathe more than once per month. Backs know the difference between good and proper wine and the £3 nonsense. Backs do not wear scrum caps because why would someone want to go there? All that odor and dirt and stuff. Backs use a proper tailor and nothing off the rack. Backs do not dye their hair, nor their skin. Backs can wax rhapsodic about how lovely the weather was at Ascot. All else has no place in Rugby.

...

You missed out the fundamental - backs do not want to get their kit dirty in case they get mistaken for a forward (for shame ). For this reason, they will wash their kit after every match or training session just in case there is some splatter of dirt on a sock. Oh, and because backs are able to form relationships with members of the opposite sex, they do not feel the need to spend all Saturday afternoon embracing fellow hairy forwards...

Truly you are wise. I did indeed forget to state we do try to stay clean at all times. To be fair, though, Rugby is a tough mans sport, and sometimes even we have to take a splatter or two. But not to excess, mind.

We don't wear scrum caps because it will make a bit of a mess with the gel in our hair.
We don't let our socks down because, well, it is simply not done.
And we pass the ball. A lot. And we don't drop it. We in the backs community believe the ball is a beautiful thing. Yes, shared. But also it is meant to be held and cared for. Caressed like a woman's bosom. Not messed about with like a greased pig. Or road kill.

And all done with a wry, condescending smile and a pinkie finger in the air.

by InjuredYetAgain Tue 23 Jul 2013, 8:20 pm

Excessively large valuables bags.
When I started, you shoved your wallet and house keys (no car so you could get absolutely whammed after the game) in a sock and out that into a plastic bag.
It moved onto a group (let's just call the "backs" for convenience) who started putting chains and other jewellery in. From there, they descended to mobiles the size of a prop's arse.
Wouldn't surprise me if they put I-pads or x-boxes in a valuables trunk these days. Meanwhile, as long as we forwards have enough money to get guffed, a bus home and then a Chinese take away (which we don't actually eat until breakfast time on Sunday) we are happy

by doctor_grey Tue 23 Jul 2013, 8:46 pm

InjuredYetAgain wrote:...........Meanwhile, as long as we forwards have enough money to get guffed, a bus home and then a Chinese take away (which we don't actually eat until breakfast time on Sunday) we are happy

Good gosh.
I think I saw something like this on the Discovery Channel many years ago. From a tribe up the Amazon or Congo somewhere.

by Knowsit17 Tue 23 Jul 2013, 8:53 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:I REALLY REALLY hate it when the fly-half bounces the ball before kicking off. Drives me up the wall. It's a ball. It's gonna bounce!!!

Go easy on them man, they clearly don't have your expertise in that area Wink

by MrsP Tue 23 Jul 2013, 8:55 pm

Breadvan wrote:Touchline reporters interviewing coaches mid game. " I don't want to answer inane questions, I'm trying to watch the game. We're 21-0 down ffs! "

This!!!

by InjuredYetAgain Tue 23 Jul 2013, 8:56 pm

I think that was actually Glasgow, doc
You were confused as you saw loads of Congolese but they were only there doing missionary work, teaching the locals how to use cutlery, toilets etc

by doctor_grey Tue 23 Jul 2013, 9:12 pm

Right-o! And the funny, strange, and haunting language the natives spoke was Glaswegian. Now it all makes sense.

I really need to watch the Discovery Channel with more attention.

by Submachine Tue 23 Jul 2013, 10:40 pm

Former first team players, playing with the fifths drinking side talking horlicks and trying to impose ridiculously high standards on those who only ever aspired to cause some temporary pain and get peed afterwards.

by GLove39 Tue 23 Jul 2013, 10:43 pm

Things that have no place in rugby?
Well the obvious answers would be Callum Clark...

by GLove39 Tue 23 Jul 2013, 10:46 pm

Overly long try celebrations. Super 15 I'm looking at you. The other week a Cheetas lock thought he scored a try so launched into a routine that involved using the ball to mimic a lawmower Shocked

Seriously what the duck is up with that?

by dallym Wed 24 Jul 2013, 10:05 am

socks not pulled up.

and those mini socks that some of the players (e.g. O'Connor) are wearing these days

by Bathman_in_London Wed 24 Jul 2013, 10:24 am

If I was a head coach, we would have a black boots policy, I mean seeing Nick Easter amble around in white boots, who does he think he is?

Scrum caps for girls has already been covered, but if you wear one, why take it off to kick?

Director of elite performance/director of rugby/ a load of other meaningless names that Allistair Campbell might have come up with.

Random bits of tape on the arms/legs, thankfully bound to be a fad to go the same way as the nose strip.

The use of club nicknames as actual names, for me Leicester are either Leicester or the Tigers, not both. Same with Northampton and Saints.

A playing annoyance, having worked had to secure a turnover, some donkey comes in and shins the ball back to the opposition as they ruck over/ try and get a breather.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 24 Jul 2013, 10:55 am

dallym wrote:socks not pulled up.

and those mini socks that some of the players (e.g. O'Connor) are wearing these days

Even Chris Latham dallym? When you play like he did, I think you can make an exception. But I do understand the reasoning.

Referees who say advantage and then come back to the spot almost half an hour earlier (if I've told you once I've told you a million times don't exaggerate!) while others seem to forget about the advantage and the infringement with reckless abandon. Kicking the ball away is deemed to end an advantage as well as going for a drop goal but dropping a ball or doing nothing is deemed worthy of going back. WTF?!

by fa0019 Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:02 am

I think shoulder pads are fine... I used to wear one myself. It didn't help in attacking, rather mitigate the pressure on your shoulders of the 10+ tackles made during a match.

Headgear for flankers and backline... we see a number of players such as Conrad Smith who have suffered a number of concussions recently and whose careers are placed in doubt because of it, would headgear have prevented the severeness of these concussions?

It doesn't interfere with play or mobilty so overall I'm fine with it... although whenever I came across a back on the field with headgear we always targeted him... just because we thought it was lame.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:08 am

Seems only fair as they were the doing the same to you because of your shoulder pads. Hug

by fa0019 Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:11 am

My point exactly Kia, us softies need all the help we can get. Wink

My point was it didn't help in attacking and in defence it only helped in reducing the pressure hit after hit. These days guys are so big even at club rugby that unless you want car crash injuries its sensible to take a precaution which doesn't impact mobility and infringe on fairness.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:22 am

We have protection pretty much everywhere for players but I wonder how many players wear protection in the underpants area. Not so much protecting against crapping yourself when you're about to tackle a huge guy but more for preserving the integrity of your meat and spuds.

by fa0019 Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:24 am

Kia, unless you're a prop and up against an old timer with all the tricks I think most chaps we be ok... well unless your name is Buck Shelford???

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:25 am

Or Long John Slitherer...

by SecretFly Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:26 am

Give them all helmets and shoulder padding...make it mandatory. Break it into four quarters. Make dancing girls also mandatory and call it American football?

by fa0019 Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:27 am

kia - apparently its not an issue in Wales! Wink

by doctor_grey Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:28 am

fa0019 wrote:I think shoulder pads are fine... I used to wear one myself. It didn't help in attacking, rather mitigate the pressure on your shoulders of the 10+ tackles made during a match.

Headgear for flankers and backline... we see a number of players such as Conrad Smith who have suffered a number of concussions recently and whose careers are placed in doubt because of it, would headgear have prevented the severeness of these concussions?.........

A few quick points. Firstly I agree the shoulder pads do perform a function. They can reduce the immediate force of what we can call a blunt trauma injury. This would be something like a bone to bone contact, knee to collarbone, for example. Collarbones are fairly fragile. If the pads go down the back they can protect the kidneys a bit. But not much more. If someone is already playing with damaged ribs, these really won't help. My feeling is if these make a player more confident in contact, no issue. but they cannot be allowed to grow bigger.

Second, and more importantly, the scrum cap. The purpose of a scrum cap is to protect the ears and secondarily bandages or cuts to the head. They do not protect against concussion. In any way. The best prescription for Conrad Smith is to take 6 months away from Rugby now. nd be concussion tested before coming back.

Sorry for going all serious and a bit preachy. But injuries are my thing - both professionally (of course), but also as a player (plenty of injuries there too, though no Buck Shelford) and a youth coach/dad.

To put in perspective, I am in the third day of a killer migraine which I get a few times per year. Can't work, so I am spending my time making bad jokes and dumb posts here. Directly related to concussions either in Rugby or out in the field over a lifetime where I was always immune to long term damage.......

Serious sh1t over. Back to the maggots............

by doctor_grey Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:30 am

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:We have protection pretty much everywhere for players but I wonder how many players wear protection in the underpants area. Not so much protecting against crapping yourself when you're about to tackle a huge guy but more for preserving the integrity of your meat and spuds.

Hard protection of the family jewels is prohibited, no? Serious question. I always thought it was. I don't know any professional players who use it.

by fa0019 Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:32 am

doctor_grey wrote:
fa0019 wrote:I think shoulder pads are fine... I used to wear one myself. It didn't help in attacking, rather mitigate the pressure on your shoulders of the 10+ tackles made during a match.

Headgear for flankers and backline... we see a number of players such as Conrad Smith who have suffered a number of concussions recently and whose careers are placed in doubt because of it, would headgear have prevented the severeness of these concussions?.........
A few quick points. Firstly I agree the shoulder pads do perform a function. They can reduce the immediate force of what we can call a blunt trauma injury. This would be something like a bone to bone contact, knee to collarbone, for example. Collarbones are fairly fragile. If the pads go down the back they can protect the kidneys a bit. But not much more. If someone is already playing with damaged ribs, these really won't help. My feeling is if these make a player more confident in contact, no issue. but they cannot be allowed to grow bigger.

Second, and more importantly, the scrum cap. The purpose of a scrum cap is to protect the ears and secondarily and bandages or cuts to the head. They do not protect against concussion. In any way. The best prescription for Conrad Smith is to take 6 months away from Rugby now. nd be concussion tested before coming back.

Sorry for going all serious and a bit preachy. But injuries are my thing - both professionally (of course), but also as a player (plenty of injuries there too, though no Buck Shelford) and a youth coach/dad.

To put in perspective, I am in the third day of a killer migraine which I get a few times per year. Can't work, so I am spending my time making bad jokes and dumb posts here. Directly related to concussions either in Rugby or out in the field.

Serious sh1t over. Back to the maggots............

Not at all Doc.... good to point out.

I always assumed it helped protect against/reduce the impacts of a concussion(s) especially when Petr Cech was told to wear one after a head injury he experienced.

by SecretFly Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:34 am

doctor_grey wrote:
kiakahaaotearoa wrote:We have protection pretty much everywhere for players but I wonder how many players wear protection in the underpants area. Not so much protecting against crapping yourself when you're about to tackle a huge guy but more for preserving the integrity of your meat and spuds.
Hard protection of the family jewels is prohibited, no? Serious question. I always thought it was. I don't know any professional players who use it.

Backs don't need the protection for family stuff. And we all know some of the forwards need firm handles for down there rather than protection. I think NetherRegion Handles would clean up a lot of the messing around at scrums.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:37 am

doctor_grey wrote:
kiakahaaotearoa wrote:We have protection pretty much everywhere for players but I wonder how many players wear protection in the underpants area. Not so much protecting against crapping yourself when you're about to tackle a huge guy but more for preserving the integrity of your meat and spuds.
Hard protection of the family jewels is prohibited, no? Serious question. I always thought it was. I don't know any professional players who use it.

Don't be so naive doc. It's not just the shirts that are tight. The shorts are too and there are some pretty serious odd shaped turnips around if nothing is being put down there.

Hope you get over your migraine soon doc. And hope I sober up soon and do some furious

work.

by Scarpia Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:39 am

Bathman_in_London wrote:

Scrum caps for girls has already been covered, but if you wear one, why take it off to kick?

The chances of being kicked in the head while attempting a conversion are relatively small.

by SecretFly Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:51 am

I can't see why this assumed issue about Halfpenny, and him taking off his cap to kick, persists.

Just think about it. He's trying to create the conditions where he does most of his kicking- and that's not in a game. That's on the practice ground. You'd assume he doesn't wear a cap on the training ground...thus he's more comfortable, and in his zone, with it off when kicking in a game.

by MrsP Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:52 am

doctor_grey wrote:
Second, and more importantly, the scrum cap. The purpose of a scrum cap is to protect the ears and secondarily bandages or cuts to the head. They do not protect against concussion. In any way. The best prescription for Conrad Smith is to take 6 months away from Rugby now. nd be concussion tested before coming back.

Sorry for going all serious and a bit preachy. But injuries are my thing - both professionally (of course), but also as a player (plenty of injuries there too, though no Buck Shelford) and a youth coach/dad.

To put in perspective, I am in the third day of a killer migraine which I get a few times per year. Can't work, so I am spending my time making bad jokes and dumb posts here. Directly related to concussions either in Rugby or out in the field over a lifetime where I was always immune to long term damage.......

Serious sh1t over. Back to the maggots............

by MrsP Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:53 am

Scarpia wrote:
Bathman_in_London wrote:

Scrum caps for girls has already been covered, but if you wear one, why take it off to kick?

The chances of being kicked in the head while attempting a conversion are relatively small.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:54 am

Wear the scrum cap while practising. Save time. Although it would be funny if he practised goal kicking with just his boots on and no clothes and then tried to replicate that feeling of liberty and serenity during a game...

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:56 am

I don't like the practice of tucking your mouthguard into your sock. Would you eat food out of a sock? Maybe at Christmas time but those ones haven't been worn and normally the food inside is either wrapped up or packaged.

I much prefer to have a mouthguard necklace where the plastic container can be brought out and the mouthguard hygienically stored away when not needed.

by GunsGerms Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:00 pm

Kia, rugby dirt is good dirt.

As for the removal of a scrum cap. I wore one for a while and I was an OH and found it made a big difference removing it when taking kicks. OHs that wear scrum caps probably arent wearing them by choice but out of necessity. They can be distracting, irritating etc. All things you want to avoid when kicking.

by SecretFly Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:01 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Wear the scrum cap while practising. Save time. Although it would be funny if he practised goal kicking with just his boots on and no clothes and then tried to replicate that feeling of liberty and serenity during a game...

I'd rip that bloody thing off every time I kick too...in fact, I'd tell him to just get rid of the thing altogether. But there you go...he'd now probably feel 'naked' without it during normal gametime. He's caught now between two psychological time zones,so to speak.

by GunsGerms Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:02 pm

MrsP wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Second, and more importantly, the scrum cap. The purpose of a scrum cap is to protect the ears and secondarily bandages or cuts to the head. They do not protect against concussion. In any way. The best prescription for Conrad Smith is to take 6 months away from Rugby now. nd be concussion tested before coming back.

Sorry for going all serious and a bit preachy. But injuries are my thing - both professionally (of course), but also as a player (plenty of injuries there too, though no Buck Shelford) and a youth coach/dad.

To put in perspective, I am in the third day of a killer migraine which I get a few times per year. Can't work, so I am spending my time making bad jokes and dumb posts here. Directly related to concussions either in Rugby or out in the field over a lifetime where I was always immune to long term damage.......

Serious sh1t over. Back to the maggots............

Dr Grey you must be stressed. Thats always the prognosis I get whenever I have migrane. Sorry always wanted to say that to a doctor.

by Cyril Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:04 pm

Players stopping quick free-kicks/penalties by holding onto the ball or sneakily throwing/rolling it away.

This doesn't get punished enough (by penalties, being marched back 10 metres or a yellow card). I do think I remember Drew Mitchell getting a second yellow (and his marching orders) for doing it though, which is a pretty stupid way of earning an early bath!

by SecretFly Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:06 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I don't like the practice of tucking your mouthguard into your sock. Would you eat food out of a sock? Maybe at Christmas time but those ones haven't been worn and normally the food inside is either wrapped up or packaged.

I much prefer to have a mouthguard necklace where the plastic container can be brought out and the mouthguard hygienically stored away when not needed.

Pertinent analogy as at Christmas time many people eat food out of a Turkey's ass Wink

by maestegmafia Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:07 pm

SecretFly wrote:I can't see why this assumed issue about Halfpenny, and him taking off his cap to kick, persists.

Just think about it. He's trying to create the conditions where he does most of his kicking- and that's not in a game. That's on the practice ground. You'd assume he doesn't wear a cap on the training ground...thus he's more comfortable, and in his zone, with it off when kicking in a game.

He definitely takes a lot less time pre goal kick than many others, even removing the head gear so its certainly no issue for me.

It's the silly face pulling and ridiculous routine some players perform that enters room 101 for me..

by SecretFly Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:10 pm

Cyril wrote:Players stopping quick free-kicks/penalties by holding onto the ball or sneakily throwing/rolling it away.

This doesn't get punished enough (by penalties, being marched back 10 metres or a yellow card). I do think I remember Drew Mitchell getting a second yellow (and his marching orders) for doing it though, which is a pretty stupid way of earning an early bath!

If it became more harshly penalised, they'd have to seriously think about back-dating it through perhaps a century? As some pretty big games have been won through the decades on the whim of a player who held onto a ball for enough miliseconds to make a swift counter-attack unviable.

by fa0019 Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:14 pm

One thing I never liked was the obvious copying of styles from other kickers.

Neil Jenkins copied Grant Fox action for action in the old days (albeit probably superceding the 'master' in terms of his effectiveness).

Elton Jantjies has taken JW's action to the extreme. It looks ridiculous.

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