How many players from your club/province would make this team?

There is a bit of discussion going on about the Crusaders on the International section. I thought a much more interesting debate would be how many players from your team would make the starting 15 for the Crusaders?

Before anyone accuses me of being a Crusaders sycophant, I'm living in Hurricanes territory and the Crusaders team is chock a block with the cream ofhurricanes youth. So I'm probably best described as bitter and twisted.

The team that ran out last weekend was:

15 Israel Dagg
14 Tom Marshall
13 Ryan Crotty
12 Tom Taylor
11 Zac Guildford
10 Dan Carter
9 Andy Ellis
1 Wyatt Crockett
2 Corey Flynn
3 Owen Franks
4 Luke Romano
5 Sam Whitelock
6 George Whitelock
7 Matt Todd
8 Kieran Read
    Replacements
16 Ben Funnell
17 Joe Moody
18 Luke Whitelock
19 Richie McCaw
20 Willi Heinz
21 Tyler Bleyendaal
22 Adam Whitelock

Obviously injuries and fitness come into it. I'm figuring that Fruen, and would be in the picture if they weren't injured. MCCaw would probably be starting if he hadn't had a break.

From a Hurricanes perspective I'd like to think the following players would have a show:
Dane Coles at hooker,
Vito or Thrush on the reserves (or at 6),
Perenara as one of the halfbacks,
Savea as wing
Jane on the wing (assuming he was fit)
Barrett as first five/wing/full back cover on the bench

How about players from you local franchise?

Romano - Eben Etzebeth
Flynn - Bismarck du Plessis
Flynn - Adriaan Strauss
Marshall - Bryan Habana
Taylor - de Villiers, Serfontein
Ellis - Vermaak, Van Zyl, Pretorius
Crockett - Beast
Franks - Jannie
Backrow - a plethora of them.

You are cheatong Bil.

They are from several SA teams. Not just 1. Pick just your s15 team.

OK,

My issue is that I do not watch much SH rugby, as on a Saturday morning I am usually being Taxi Dad. So I can only base my decisions on what I have seen of players in the AB shirt.

Do not know 14, 13, 12 or 7. apologies for my ignorance.

I reckon that our 6 current Lions would make a damned good crack of ousting their competitors, as well as Ayerza at loosehead prop.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:You are cheatong Bil.

They are from several SA teams. Not just 1. Pick just your s15 team.

I don't have a Super XV team.  

I love watching the Crusaders play, big fan of many of their players, Franks, Sam Whitelock, Guildford and Dagg are some of my absolute favourites.

But, i'd like to think that the following might be in with a shout

Paul James - Not a fan of Crockett, concedes a lot at scrum time
Rob Webber - He'd definitely challenge Flynn
Frans Louw - at 6 or 7, alongside McCaw and Read would be an incredible trio
Kyle Eastmond - the type of player that could flourish in S15 and would be in with a shout at 12/13

1/2p would be the only guy who would have a shot imo from the blues.

blackcanelion, would it be fair to say that the Crusaders' relative weaknesses would be at 12,13,14,1&6?  From the Chiefs, we could offer Jason Shoemark, Sireli Naqelevuki, Jack Nowell, Brett Sturgess and Tom Johnson in those positions - I'm not sure that you'd want any of them, but that's ok, given that the totality of Exe is greater than the sum of the individual players. You'll know plenty about Shoey and Naqer as former Super XV players, Nowell is, I suspect, a future England star in the making and part of their recent JWC-winning U20 team, Sturge is a solid customer, fairly mobile around the park and not bested by many in the scrum, while TJ has a few caps for England but would be behind Wood and Croft in the pecking order at blindside

Zac Guildford...hows he going with his personal Demons at the moment...?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Zac Guildford...hows he going with his personal Demons at the moment...?

Not sure. I suspect he's probably coming to a club near you sooner than later.

Leinster:
1.Wyatt Crocket -> Cian Healy
6. George Whitelock-> Sean O'Brien
13. Ryan Crotty -> Drico (would get some game time)

Sub:
Madigan. He would be the sort of 10 they get giddy over in NZ.

Sean O'Brien. Cian Healy. Bod and Darce. Nacewa would have walked into that back 3 but he's gone :-(

perhaps some would say I am being unrealistic, but hey, I'm not the only one.

Heaslip would give Reid a run for his money. But reid is pure quality.

blackcanelion wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Zac Guildford...hows he going with his personal Demons at the moment...?

Not sure. I suspect he's probably coming to a club near you sooner than later.

Funny you should say that, theres been a few rumours that he has a father like relationship with Peter Russel..our head coach, that he might be heading up...

And we need a top class winger...

Oh good god, Zac G on the Newcy Brown  

Jon Davies would most likely be able to do a job in either of the centre berths. And George North would have done a job on the wing (No longer a Scarlet, but hasn't pulled on a Saints jersey yet so I still count him).

Well sadly Gwent Dragons only have 2 top international players - Faletau is ever improving at 8 but I still think Keiran Reid is the better player. Our other one would be Dan Lydiate, but he's pretty much marmite - liked in Wales but not rated outside so not sure if he'd shift George Whitelock at 6??? Haven't heard much about this Whitelock to be honest. How good is he?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Oh good god, Zac G on the Newcy Brown  

HHmmm yeah on second thoughts...
Though not officially Newcy Brown anymore...its brewed somewhere in Yorkshire now...an absolute disgrace...

As a Tigers fan I'd back:

Ayerza over Crockett
T Youngs over Flynn
Dan Cole over Franks
B Youngs over Ellis
Manu over Crotty

As definite selections and then makes cases for:

Croft over Whitelock
Allen over Taylor

Might be a case for Parling as well.

For Ulster:

14 - Tommy Bowe over Tom Marshall
9 - Ruan Pienaar over Andy Ellis
4 - Johann Muller over Luke Romano
3 - Maybe an arguement for John Afoa over Owen Franks but I appreciate most would go for Franks.

Think thats about it.

Sam, I think you are being very generous to Dan Cole saying hes ahead of Owen Franks. Don't think I'd even have John Afoa over Owen Franks to be honest. Not sure about Ayerza and Youngs over Crockett and Ellis either.

As good as that team is I'd like to think Qera, Kalamafoni, 36 and perhaps May would stand a chance of ousting their competition and surely Jimmy Cowan would waltz into that team, after all he was sold to us as being the best NZ scrum half

A New Zealander has also just suggested to me Ulster's Jared Payne at 13 ahead of Ryan Crotty even though hes mainly played 15 for us

HHmmm for the Falcons...hhmmm

 hhhmmmm

Mike Blair maybe?

From a stormers point of view and our theoretical 1st XV (inc. injured players in 2013 squad). We lost matches to the Sharks, Bulls, Waratahs and Rebels this year but beat 5/6 of those who reached the playoffs... the only loss coming to the Crusaders... at home and had we had our first XV I think we would have come through. Anyhow...

I'd say our front five is as good as those in the crusaders man for man. A front five of Kitshoff, Leibenberg, Cillers, Etzebeth and Bekker. At least there is no one in the tight five from the crusaders I'd swap for that five.

Backrow of Burger, Kolisi and Vermeulen. Its very strong. Read is probably a more polished player then Vermeulen, perhaps I'd swap Todd for Kolisi but in the pack I'd say I would keep 7 out of 8.

In the backs I'd probably drop our 10... be it Jantjies, Grant or Van Aswegen and also De Jongh for Crotty.

I'm not a big fan of Ellis at 9, Schreuder is young and a decent player. I don't think Ellis would improve our side at all though. Dagg would also overcome Pietersen who is a decent player but not in the same calibre. I wouldn't swap Aplon or Habana... both are excellent players and do well with the limited backline strategy we play in WP.

So from the 15 Crusaders players I'd want 1 in the forwards, max 2. In the backs I would see Carter, Crotty and Dagg come through.

So 4-5 for me.

Ahm, so you'd have 10 Stormers over the Crusaders players in the above team?  

I'd have Robshaw at 6 or 7. And Care. Then maybe Marler. Possibly. But definitely Care and Robshaw

Artful_Dodger wrote:Ahm, so you'd have 10 Stormers over the Crusaders players in the above team?   

Are the Stormers a bad side? No... with massive injuries and players like Bekker, Cillers, Leibenberg, Burger, Vermeulen and Taute been out injured for most of the season they still only missed the playoffs by 1 place and beat 5 out of 6 of those who are in the playoffs.

If a player is the same standard then you'd keep the man currently in the side right??? There are players who are of the same standard as those in the crusaders... chaps like Kitshoff, Schreuder, Aplon... but those who are out and out better??? Certainly I stand by only 5 in the Crusaders team who would actually improve us man on man.... and our record over the last 3 years supports this.

Would you really not have Owen Franks in your side?!

What do you know of Pat Cilliers CJ?

And long term injured players probably wouldn't start over fit good players

Very little but my opinion of franks is that he is probably the best TH in world rugby so if he is better than that I will be surprised

Franks is good yes but he's not standout and hasn't been for a year. Cillers IMO is just as good. He's a special talent, only a youngster in prop terms and doesn't get bossed by anyone.

Pat Cilliers is a silly boy, he could have been a Scarlet but decided to stay in SA and get capped.

My argument was that if a player is of the same standard you keep the current player... so rather than say which players would get into the crusaders I answered which crusader would get into the stormers which is slightly different.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Pat Cilliers is a silly boy, he could have been a Scarlet but decided to stay in SA and get capped.

What!!! He turned down Llanelli for Cape Town and 50,000 fans in newlands!!!! Whats he been smoking????

Same sh1t as you if you think most of those players are better than their crusaders counterparts.

The question was how many of your team would make the Crusaders not visa versa, and even if it was visa versa you are being waaaay to one eyed. imho.

Quite surprising to see people picking Cole & JdP ahead of Franks, I'd have Franks streets ahead of JdP and most likely Cole too on recent form.

Too one eyed.... perhaps.... although perhaps people should wake up and smell the coffee.

This crusader team have not won the SR title since 2008. You'd additionally have to be a very brave man to bet on them beating the Chiefs and the Bulls away from home in succession. Even the best Crusaders teams of yesteryear will have struggled to do that.

In the last 4 seasons the stormers have come 7th, 1st, 2nd and 2nd in the SR log. Ave. of 3.00

In the last 4 seasons the crusaders have come 4th, 4th, 3rd and 4th in the SR log. Ave. of 3.75

So over the last 4 years we've been the better side.

The Crusaders team that conquered all is long gone... now they are just one of maybe 4/5 teams who are equally strong and good enough to beat each other on their day... home advantage counts in SR, big time.

I'm going to bet on them winning. Their current form, as in the last few games, is unstoppable

Crusaders aren't particularly strong this year, especially in the backs.

Are they better than the Stormers? Possibly, they certainly play better rugby imo.

Francois Louw?

Maybe.

To be honest I'd take Cole or Afoa over Franks, Artful. Ayerza is vastly underrated, thankfully, and should come into his own further with the removal of the hit.

Ellis is a good solid 9, Ben Youngs is considerably better than that.

In terms of who are superior

Burger
Bekker
Eztebeth
Leibenberg
Habana
De Villiers

In terms of who are equal

Aplon
Schroeder
Kolisi or Vemeulen
Cilliers
Kitshoff

In terms of who is inferior

Pietersen/Taute
Jantjies
De Jongh
Kolisi or Vermeulen

Franks is a step above Afoa(as shown on the Int stage).

I'd personally have Franks over Cole, I don't think Cole has been that great of late, especially in the set piece.

Jones, Mas and Franks are the best 3 TH's about at the minute imo.

fa0019 wrote:In terms of who are superior

Burger - hard to rate him superior when he doesn't really play
Bekker - Whitelock in much better form, shades it
Eztebeth
Leibenberg
Habana
De Villiers

In terms of who are equal

Aplon - Equal to Dagg or Guildford? I'd say neither personally
Schroeder
Kolisi or Vemeulen - Vermeulen equal to Read????
Cilliers - no chance, not even close
Kitshoff - he will be but Crockett is ahead currently

In terms of who is inferior

Pietersen/Taute
Jantjies
De Jongh
Kolisi or Vermeulen

But of bias sneaking in there

perhaps... everyone is biased a little right. Everyone believes in their own players. You'd find an Ireland fan who doesn't think BOD is still not the best 13 in world rugby a rare commodity... and they would have an reasonably justified argument at least.

Vermeulen I mentioned earlier was not better then Read but he's a very good 6 and I'd have 2 of our 3 in the backrow.

But most people on here don't watch/see SR, only a couple of snippets on video etc and melt at the instance anyone says Dagg, McCaw, Carter etc. Fine they can wipe the floor with the reds and play pretty rugby.... big deal. It doesn't make them necessarily better then the other good sides in SR, they haven't won the title since 2008 and in all probability won't either this year. If the Chiefs don't beat them the bulls almost certainly will.

Its a fact over the last 4 years we have been a better side overall, as mentioned above. If thats the case then surely we have overall better players???
We didn't make the playoffs this year (by 1 place) but this was due to us losing games against mid-low teams... against the best we did very well. We beat 5 out of the 6 playoff sides this year with the worst butchers bill of anyone... as well as last season too.

Apologies, I didn't see the Vermeulen at 6 point. He is a very good 6/8, been a fan for a while.

"But most people on here don't watch/see SR, only a couple of snippets on video etc "

I can't account for everyone but I think you may be a bit off with that one. We get most Super games broadcast on Sky and I personally d/l a few games a week.

I'd say I watch more Super rugby than domestic due to its availability.

I think you're in the minority then Sgt.

On here the Crusaders are thought of as still the team above everyone else which is ridiculous. They haven't had that awe factor since Sean Maitland left!

well perhaps not quite but still people look at their 7 titles and think wow they're amazing... but if people want to still live in 2008 then fine by me... France are the best test team in Europe, Munster are the stand alone team in the HC, the boks are the world champions and England are still getting floored by Wales..... well some things never change I guess!!

Crusaders are not that great but certainly look like a team coming into some good form.

Their pack is certainly very strong, not sure I've seen them field a weaker midfield than Taylor/Crotty for a while though.

I know there's a few avid viewers of Super rugby Fa, you can normally spot them quite easily.

Sorry Sgt but Mas hasn't been on much form of late and the French scrum strength owes a lot to Domingo, his technique is awesome. Cole improved the Lions scrummaging on the second and third tests from the bench and dismantled Tonghuia in the AP final, Toulon will be keenly aware of both his and Ayerza's talents having seen their expensive front row including Hayman go backwards in the HEC.

Franks has never wowed me and looked only solid against the Reds though I only caught the first half.

Just for the record, as an Edinburgh fan, I can confirm that none of our squad would threaten the Crusaders XV.