An EPS for Ireland

First topic message reminder :

Simple thread to kill time during the off-season.

England named their 33-man Elite Player Squad today. If you were Joe Schmidt and you had to name a 33-man Irish squad for the Autumn tests and Six Nations Who would be in it?

The England squad has 5 props, 2 hookers, 4 locks, 6 backrows, 3 scrum-halves, 3 out-halves, 4 centres, 6 back three players

Notch wrote:If you were Joe Schmidt and you had to name a 33-man Irish squad for the Autumn tests and Six Nations Who would be in it?

The England squad has 5 props, 2 hookers, 4 locks, 6 backrows, 3 scrum-halves, 3 out-halves, 4 centres, 6 back three players

I don't understand why an EPS has to be 33 players, because it doesn't make any sense. The RWC squad will be 31 players so getting used to that restriction would be far more advantageous. OTOH presumably the point of an EPS is to get a settled group of players living and playing together as often as possible so they can perform as a team. That should really require two full XVs plus bench options so a squad of say 36 would make a lot more sense.

Maybe England want to look at a number of players in positions where they are weak but the front row rules mean there should always be at least three players in the squad for the 1,2 & 3 shirts. The set piece is something that can be practised and therefore having options who have at least trained together with the main pack should be an objective of the EPS structure.
Forwards (20)
Healy, Kilcoyne, Court
Best, Strauss, Sherry
Ross, Archer, Fitzpatrick
POC, Ryan, Tuohy
McCarthy, Henderson
POM, Heaslip, SOB, McLaughlin, TOD, Henry

Backs (16)
Murray, Reddan, Marshall
Sexton, Madigan, Jackson
Marshall, BOD
Earls, McFadden, Olding
Bowe, Kearney, Zebo, Trimble, Gilroy

What did Zebo do?

Allegedly was messing with some car antennas in San Diego and a Cork born US marine (who recognised him) decided to teach him a lesson with his fists and then blabbed all over the internet about it.

That, and some more stuff was in the tabloids... standard sex and drink stuff.

yappysnap wrote:What did Zebo do?

 
Not 'what' Yappy, 'whom'.

Ahhhh

Case of the tabloids blowing it out of proportion or he was genuinely being a Dick??

If only Ashton could bump into that same Cork born US marine...

yappysnap wrote:Ahhhh

Case of the tabloids blowing it out of proportion or he was genuinely being a Dick??

Hmm its all about context I suppose...I mean I've seen English soccerball players recieve MBEs for similar antics..... 

According to the papers at the weekend, the woman involved was posing for photos and signing autographs in Coppers during the week  

Is Zebo really short for Zebedee ... you know the one from the magic roundabout with his wire hanging out shouting "time for bed"?

Aparently Zebo as a joke recently called Rob Penney and asked for the Munster captaincy.

http://www.thescore.ie/zebo-munster-captain-987132-Jul2013/

This article also gives details on a fine Zebo got while on the Lions tour for conning team mate Conor Murray.

Really does seem like he needs to be taken down a peg or two.

I found this in an article on Matt O'Connor

Positive relationship
So to coin an Irish expression, has he talked to Joe? “Yeah, we had a day at Carton House with all the coaches a couple of weeks ago, with Joe (Schmidt) trying to get us all on the same page and making sure there is that really high level of communication across the provinces from the IRFU. I think it will be a positive relationship; certainly it is shaping up to be that way.”

Sounds like Schmidt might want a say in team selection.

I think the call to Penney was a forfeit for something on the lions tour and was a complete pisstake.

I don't think he is guilty of anymore than having a few liquors and acting the maggot. Jesus, I think we can all relate to that. If it effects his level of performance then yes he does need a slap and reminded of what's important. I suspect it won't come to that.

profitius wrote:I found this in an article on Matt O'Connor

Positive relationship
So to coin an Irish expression, has he talked to Joe? “Yeah, we had a day at Carton House with all the coaches a couple of weeks ago, with Joe (Schmidt) trying to get us all on the same page and making sure there is that really high level of communication across the provinces from the IRFU. I think it will be a positive relationship; certainly it is shaping up to be that way.”

Sounds like Schmidt might want a say in team selection.

I certainly hope so in a way. I know we are going back a bit to an earlier point argued but I think the national coach (if he is not a dunce) should have a say in certain matters in provincial rugby.

I wonder what he said to each coach??? That would be an interesting conversation. 

To Leinster, maybe to bring though Moore and other TH's quick enough??
To Munster, to possibly try Zebo at 15??
To Ulster, maybe give Bowe/Payne a shot at 13??
To Connaght, maybe moving Henshaw to 13 a few times, letting Layden start at 15??

What do others think he would be asking of provincial coaches, whether it be right or wrong that he is doing it.

profitius wrote:I found this in an article on Matt O'Connor

Positive relationship
So to coin an Irish expression, has he talked to Joe? “Yeah, we had a day at Carton House with all the coaches a couple of weeks ago, with Joe (Schmidt) trying to get us all on the same page and making sure there is that really high level of communication across the provinces from the IRFU. I think it will be a positive relationship; certainly it is shaping up to be that way.”

Sounds like Schmidt might want a say in team selection.

 
No I think its likely more to do with ensuring the style of rugby that the teams are playing is consistant with the national team.
 
This was identified as one of the major failings under Kidney - the provinces were all playing totally different styles of rugby - making it very difficult for the national side to gel on the pitch.
 
I'd guess that one of the reasons Joe held out so long is that he'd have wanted more of a say than Kidney did in what the provinces were doing, and also that communication was improved between the national and provincial coaches.
 
Coming from NZ, where the national coach has a say at every level of rugby, I'm sure he is keen to get the Irish set up functioning in a similar fashion.
 
Joe doesn't come across as the dictator type though, so I'd hope and imagine that the conversations with the provincial coaches work both ways.

Schmidt should have an opinion certainly and it should carry some weight. Regarding ulsters 13 selection though I don't know what I would want him to say. Give Payne a run? Fair enough, or how about make sure the likes of Olding/Farrell are given a chance to stake their claim. I would rather we invested in youth than moved Payne especially since Kearney has hardly been in imperious form and our back up was a 19 year old.

Stand I suppose Schmidts priority will be the 2015 RWC, so I'm sure everyone sees Payne as an option at 13.
 
I genuinely don't think Schmidt will be interfering in day to day selection of the provinces, as someone whos been involved at that level he'll be sympathetic to the fact that the coaches will have their own ideas and goals.
 
However I'm sure he will have laid out his aims and identified key positions were he wants to look at certain players.
 
I think its a really positive step that these conversations are taking place and confirms why Joe is the man for the job.
 
The provinces need a certain level of autonomy to make their own decisions but can't be given a free reign either for the National team to succeed. It's about balance and I'm confident Joe can bring that balance to the set up.

Payne could well be an option at 13. I'm not denying he isn't but I would be disappointed if we gave Payne gametime at 13 to the detriment of 3 younger Irish players, 2 of whom are young enough to be viable options for years to come.

Our options at 15 aren't great unless Kearney gets back to his imperious best

A meeting of all the coaching staff is nothing unusual since Kidney took over. Since Schmidt is new in the job, I can't see him telling any of the provincial coaches to do anything - I think it would be more a listening to what they have to say. From what I recall, the provincial coaches have been getting together anyway to discuss NIQs etc. This is all new for O'Connor & Lam probably.

For the record, I can't see Penney changing his Canterbury style to the Auckland style (where Anscombe, Schmidt & Lam have come from).

Ulster won't be moving Payne anytime soon from a position they are weak in (fullback) to a position they are well covered.

GunsGerms wrote:Aparently Zebo as a joke recently called Rob Penney and asked for the Munster captaincy.

http://www.thescore.ie/zebo-munster-captain-987132-Jul2013/

This article also gives details on a fine Zebo got while on the Lions tour for conning team mate Conor Murray.

Really does seem like he needs to be taken down a peg or two.

Actually, I think the fine was for enjoying the Zebo chanting too much from the fans! I think the two lads were very stupid and lost the run of themselves, but from what I see of Zebo, he is always acting the maggot but he is well liked by his team mates. I remember after the flick against Wales, one of his underage coaches was asked about him and he said that as a kid two things stood out about him - 1. He was very fast, and 2. He was a lovely kid.

I just hope all this stuff just doesn't knock his confidence which is the thing that makes him the player he is.

As Nelson develops I can certainly see Payne moving forward more often....I think this will be a gradual process rather than an abrupt change though.
 
O'Driscoll will be gone at the end of the season and at this stage no one looks set to step into the breach...if anything Olding looks the best bet but 2015 might come too soon for him.

Sin é wrote:
Actually, I think the fine was for enjoying the Zebo chanting too much from the fans! I think the two lads were very stupid and lost the run of themselves, but from what I see of Zebo, he is always acting the maggot but he is well liked by his team mates. I remember after the flick against Wales, one of his underage coaches was asked about him and he said that as a kid two things stood out about him - 1. He was very fast, and 2. He was a lovely kid.
I just hope all this stuff just doesn't knock his confidence which is the thing that makes him the player he is.

I wouldnt doubt that. Also its good to act the maggot and have fun. All the Irish players do this stuff. Id also be willing to bet a lot of them have done some of the seedier stuff that Zebo is getting accused of doing. I think though most of them have managed to keep under the radar a lot better than zebo. Its ok to do this stuff if you get away with it in my opinion. He needs to work on that, public image, humility etc. Dont want him to be Irelands Danny C. Not referring to breaking car aerials. Thats just dumb.

Zebodee is known to have a good aerial game - he was probably just getting into his pre-season.

Thats funny.

The Great Aukster wrote:Zebodee is known to have a good aerial game - he was probably just getting into his pre-season.

 

I still think it's silly to groom Payne as our 13 when he's not yet Irish qualified and hasn't confirmed he will be playing in Ireland next season.

It may become an option down the line, not this season though.

Sin é wrote:A meeting of all the coaching staff is nothing unusual since Kidney took over. Since Schmidt is new in the job, I can't see him telling any of the provincial coaches to do anything - I think it would be more a listening to what they have to say.

Didn't Joe Schmidt say that he had never been contacted by the national coach at one point?

I think kidney employed the "mushroom approach" Keep them in the dark and throw sh1t at them.

Joe (and probably ALL of the current provintial coaches) are straightforward blokes. They will probably sit down and discuss things like normal humans.

I'm sure Joe will give them as much leeway as he can if they do the same and are straight with him.

He strikes me as a bloke who is very laid back as long as you don't take the pi$$. However he has no problem kicking your ass if that's what it takes.

Notch wrote:I still think it's silly to groom Payne as our 13 when he's not yet Irish qualified and hasn't confirmed he will be playing in Ireland next season.

It may become an option down the line, not this season though.

It would indeed be silly if anyone actually suggested that.

Notch wrote:I still think it's silly to groom Payne as our 13 when he's not yet Irish qualified and hasn't confirmed he will be playing in Ireland next season.

It may become an option down the line, not this season though.

I thought he signed a new contract this year? According to the BBC he has.

He also said he wants to switch to centre.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/northern-ireland/22482921

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:I still think it's silly to groom Payne as our 13 when he's not yet Irish qualified and hasn't confirmed he will be playing in Ireland next season.

It may become an option down the line, not this season though.

It would indeed be silly if anyone actually suggested that.

You called Jarod Payne silly. Na na neh na naah.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:A meeting of all the coaching staff is nothing unusual since Kidney took over. Since Schmidt is new in the job, I can't see him telling any of the provincial coaches to do anything - I think it would be more a listening to what they have to say.

Didn't Joe Schmidt say that he had never been contacted by the national coach at one point?

I think kidney employed the "mushroom approach" Keep them in the dark and throw sh1t at them.

Joe (and probably ALL of the current provintial coaches) are straightforward blokes. They will probably sit down and discuss things like normal humans.

I'm sure Joe will give them as much leeway as he can if they do the same and are straight with him.

He strikes me as a bloke who is very laid back as long as you don't take the pi$$. However he has no problem kicking your ass if that's what it takes.

I think you are attributing Eddie O'Sullivan's form to Kidney. EOS was renowned for not talking to the provincial coaches.

And 'keep them in the dark and throw Poopie at them' would be completely out of character for Declan Kidney. Smal & Kiss were helping out with coaching sessions in the provinces when needed and that would not have happened if Kidney was not talking to the provincial coaches. Grek Feek or Axel Foley would not have been seconded to the national team either without the permission of the provincial coaches.

I think it will be interesting to see how the coach rivalry will work out with a mixture of Canterbury, Aussie & Auckland coaches all in the mix now. Pat Lam and Anscombe meeting up must have been interesting after all that racist telephone texts between their phones  

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:A meeting of all the coaching staff is nothing unusual since Kidney took over. Since Schmidt is new in the job, I can't see him telling any of the provincial coaches to do anything - I think it would be more a listening to what they have to say.

Didn't Joe Schmidt say that he had never been contacted by the national coach at one point?

I think kidney employed the "mushroom approach" Keep them in the dark and throw sh1t at them.

I don't think Deccie kept anyone in the dark....rather he was actually in the dark himself.....

Sin é wrote:
I think you are attributing Eddie O'Sullivan's form to Kidney. EOS was renowned for not talking to the provincial coaches.

Hardly. He retired 2 years before Joe joined Leinster.

rodders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:A meeting of all the coaching staff is nothing unusual since Kidney took over. Since Schmidt is new in the job, I can't see him telling any of the provincial coaches to do anything - I think it would be more a listening to what they have to say.

Didn't Joe Schmidt say that he had never been contacted by the national coach at one point?

I think kidney employed the "mushroom approach" Keep them in the dark and throw sh1t at them.

I don't think Deccie kept anyone in the dark....rather he was actually in the dark himself.....

I don't think he kept anyone in the dark for the reasons Eddie would have. (i.e. paranoia and being a control freak)

Just that he liked to leave things unsaid a lot. For whatever reason. It is his "style" He likes to keep people guessing.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I think you are attributing Eddie O'Sullivan's form to Kidney. EOS was renowned for not talking to the provincial coaches.

Hardly. He retired 2 years before Joe joined Leinster.

Before establishing it as fact that Kidney didn't talk to the provincial coaches, I'd like to see the quote. All the evidence suggests otherwise.

Apart from anything else, I'd be shocked if Schmidt actually said it even if it was true.

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I think you are attributing Eddie O'Sullivan's form to Kidney. EOS was renowned for not talking to the provincial coaches.

Hardly. He retired 2 years before Joe joined Leinster.

Before establishing it as fact that Kidney didn't talk to the provincial coaches, I'd like to see the quote. All the evidence suggests otherwise.

Apart from anything else, I'd be shocked if Schmidt actually said it even if it was true.

Sorry. I didn't think I was in a court of law.

If I come across the quote again I will let you know. Until then feel free to disbelieve it. I could actually be wrong.  

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

I don't think he kept anyone in the dark for the reasons Eddie would have. (i.e. paranoia and being a control freak)

Just that he liked to leave things unsaid a lot. For whatever reason. It is his "style" He likes to keep people guessing.

Wasn't it under Kidney's guidance that the unmentionable got aired out in Enfield? That doesn't sound like someone who avoids confrontation. All the players have said that he always gave feedback (as to what they had to do etc to make the team).

I came across an interview with Bob Casey recently who named Declan Kidney as his best coach (Kidney had him when he was EOS's assistant). Bob would have worked under a fair few coaches over the years including Conor O'Shea for LI.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I think you are attributing Eddie O'Sullivan's form to Kidney. EOS was renowned for not talking to the provincial coaches.

Hardly. He retired 2 years before Joe joined Leinster.

Before establishing it as fact that Kidney didn't talk to the provincial coaches, I'd like to see the quote. All the evidence suggests otherwise.

Apart from anything else, I'd be shocked if Schmidt actually said it even if it was true.

Sorry. I didn't think I was in a court of law.

If I come across the quote again I will let you know. Until then feel free to disbelieve it. I could actually be wrong.  

Ah well, you know how often fiction can become fact over time - mud sticking etc. I expect a lot of it to happen over the next few months to enhance Schmidt's innovative reputation.

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:I still think it's silly to groom Payne as our 13 when he's not yet Irish qualified and hasn't confirmed he will be playing in Ireland next season.

It may become an option down the line, not this season though.

I thought he signed a new contract this year? According to the BBC he has.

He also said he wants to switch to centre.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/northern-ireland/22482921

 

How on earth did I miss this? Apologies all. No doubt he has the skills.

To busy enjoying the Lions buildup, coverage and hype I assume.

I saw it, but it slipped my mind entirely. I still think Cave should be playing 13 for Ulster this season, but once Payne DOES become Irish qualified the question of who plays outside centre for us will become very, very interesting indeed.

It's next year for Payne though. There's an Ulster reason and an Ireland reason.

Ulster) he's our best fullback and McIlwaine and Nelson aren't ready to start the big games.
Ireland) He's not yet Irish qualified. If he was to be our first choice 13 and BOD got injured we may only have Griffin/Henshaw and Earls playing regularly at 13- not impossible Earls will lose out to Lualala too. We need Cave to be ready to step in just in case. We need Irish qualified players there.

But when Payne 'turns Irish' in 2014/2015 this could get really interesting.

Isn't it a bit cheeky of him stating that he wants to play in the centre? Where is all that indignant outrage at his neck to say where he wanted to play (Must have been all used up on Earls). 

Probably more to do with who the players in question talked to. Earls talked to the media about it whereas Payne talked to his coach.

I don't feel any 'outrage' towards Earls btw. Just think its a case of a player not knowing himself where his best position is. Don't feel like there is an issue with Earls at all. Afaik, he hasn't refused to play wing or made himself awkward to work with in any way.

Notch wrote:Probably more to do with who the players in question talked to. Earls talked to the media about it whereas Payne talked to his coach.

Since Payne isn't continually moved around, no one is going to ask him what position he prefers. He wouldn't get interviewed that much either, unlike the Irish internationals.

Notch wrote:I don't feel any 'outrage' towards Earls btw. Just think its a case of a player not knowing himself where his best position is. Don't feel like there is an issue with Earls at all. Afaik, he hasn't refused to play wing or made himself awkward to work with in any way.

Believe me there is an awful lot of it and by the abuse he gets, you'd swear that he refused to play anywhere else but centre.

I like Earls and I have always said he would make a good centre. Still think he could do a job for us there. Two weaknesses:

yo-yo confidence.
linking with team mates.

Other than that he is excellent IMO.

Not sure where you'e getting that from tbh. Lot of people just don't think he should be played in the centre is all.

His confidence is fine in Munster where people don't jump on his back if he makes a mistake (which is rare anyway). Despite BOD bawling him out, it didn't seem to affect his game either.

Earls biggest problem is being injury prone (or being played continually without a chance to get properly fit).

Sin é wrote:His confidence is fine in Munster where people don't jump on his back if he makes a mistake (which is rare anyway). Despite BOD bawling him out, it didn't seem to affect his game either.

Thats the difference in a nutshell between provincial quality and international quality. So much more pressure at test level. Everything you do is dissected. How do you handle it? Some are utterly unfazed, some struggle, most are in between.

I think in general we as fans and the media do put a bit too much pressure on Irish internationals but they can't be handled with kid gloves either.

Notch wrote:Not sure where you'e getting that from tbh. Lot of people just don't think he should be played in the centre is all.

I disagree because he is Irelands best line breaker. By that I mean he can find a gap better than Murray and Zebo.