Cheating hypocrisy in Boxing.....

I believe you're only a cheat If you get found out...and I believe lots of people share the same attitude.......Don't believe any sprinter these days beats Ben Johnson naturally........and yet he wouldn't make the final these days......

Lets face it these days it's very amateurish If you get caught. ....... Hence I believe that a huge number of boxers are doping.......

The ones that get caught are absolutely hammered and prehaps rightly so..........However cheating goes on in all sport and a lot of it is applauded !!..........Called gaining an edge and It's very easy to justify it..Just think everybody else is doing it!!

I mean take Roberto Duran...Probably the most popular fighter of alltime.........and in his day an alphabet lovechild meaning he could get away with anything and he did...

Take Moore vs Duran.........Deliberate thumbs......countless elbows...headbutts...low punches....It was common assault and everybody lapped it up............maybe he juiced too wouldn't put it past him....But forget that last comment........

You think Moore would have preferred a juiced up fair-Duran instead of a completely dirty fighting animal he got that night...I do....

Let's face it I'd have more time for people with their mock outrage over peds.. If they were a little bit more consistent on CHEATING overall....

Duran was a smart fighter..I applaud him..He knew he wouldn't get chucked out in front of 10,000 screaming fans......

Just remember when you applaud cheating don't moan about Peds......After all either condone everything or nothing !!

You're walking a fine line Truss, between blatant cheating and lets say it bending the rules in your favour.

Would you call Ali a cheat ? A hero of yours and many.

He constantly held a fighter behind the head which is against the rules, yet he got away with it. No problem myself however that's the line you're walking with this one.

Cheers Rodders

It's a measured response......Duran was just an example he is one of many........

However he knew what he was doing...........low blows, elbows and headbutts can be very debilitating.......

Ali did bend the rules..not condoning it..

Thing is Duran is a hero to the same people who hang Ped takers....

My argument is.........be more consistent about cheating.....

Spoiler:

Couldn't find the even better one where an actual boxing coach goes through and shows you each one, how it's questionable bordering on illegal, and how he gets away with it.

He gets away with it because he's a big star and they don't want a riot...........Or a golden goose destroyed.........

Tyson carried on after biting off half an ear !!........Only the second bite that got him chucked out..

It's wrong or right..but it's all wrong or right ...

Or nothing...

Yeh, because a an elbow or low blow is equivalent to being drugged up to your eyeballs......

If you're going to be silly go away...

Not in the mood for you..

I'm going to have to agree with Toppy here Truss, you're comparing two very different animals. Elbows, headbutts and such are part of the game. We get taught to follow through with our hooks to catch with the forearm or elbow when on the inside - its a commonly taught tactic. You're not throwing an elbow, but it is extra harassment. Its at the referee's discretion as to whether to call the boxer on this or not, look at Holyfield and Hoppo, ATG's in their own right, but both huge advocates of using the head and dirty inside tactics to win. Not cheating.

On the other side, you've got people who before the fight want to give themselves an advantage that the other person doesn't have. Using PED's is a wilful acceptance that you can't do something without them and an unfair advantage. Bear in mind, if the opponents of a dirty boxer want to fight fire with fire, they can do. What they can't do is think "well he's on steds, so I'll use them too" because it is expressly forbidden to do so.

Think of football mate, holding the ball at the corner flag at 89 minutes with a 1 - 0 lead isn't sportsmanlike, its a horrible tactic, but its allowed. Before kickoff, having a member of your team wearing rocket boots is cheating.

They aren't part of the game...........

They are illegal..end of

Then how have Holyfield and Hoppo been so successful despite deliberate use of the head? Surely they should be banned and hated?

Yes I'm saying they should........Condone it all or nothing....

Cheating is cheating..........

But taking drugs in secret to gain an advantage they don't have beyond the natural is surely worse than using tactics they're perfectly able to employ themselves?

Hatton V Tszyu was a fairly tight affair until he gave the Australian's nuts a working over......

So stamping in soccer...elbowing people in the head..deliberately blinding someone with a thumb is acceptable...

Because two can do it ??

what a joke...........

Cheating is acceptable as long as it is done on a small scale....

So If I hold up a bank and steal 1000 I should get a lesser sentence than someone who steals 10000..

Very good..

Completely skewed logic. Is Football a combat sport? No. Therefore any physical violence is of course cheating.

Truss, you're reaching with this.

Not reaching at all...you brought soccer into it..

You're justifying cheating by saying both can do it.....

Why isn't all cheating wrong ??

Use of the head and elbows is negligible. You can't throw an elbow or try to headbutt, but it is part and parcel of participating in a combat sport, its a blurred line.

There are no blurred lines when it comes to peds. Unnatural advantages are forbidden. You know this before taking part. Taking them is expressly forbidden.

It wasn't negligible against Davey Moore but the same people who laud Duran moan about Ped abusers..

Your argument doesn't wash..

Either condone it all or nothing..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:They aren't part of the game...........

They are illegal..end of

Neither are PEDs??!!

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:They aren't part of the game...........

They are illegal..end of

Neither are PEDs??!!

No s**t

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It wasn't negligible against Davey Moore but the same people who laud Duran moan about Ped abusers..

Your argument doesn't wash..

Either condone it all or nothing..

So basically you're saying we have only two options: either play sport to absolute perfection (your boy PBF's career is now in tatters) without even the tiniest hint of indiscretion and achieve a level of human inflallibility and honestly yet to be ever demonstrated in a thousand years OR juice and drug up to your eyeballs and bring a gun into the ring so you can just shoot your opponent and be done with it?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:They aren't part of the game...........

They are illegal..end of

Neither are PEDs??!!

No s**t

The point you're making is just so confusing. Jab's analogy was a fair one and your response made no sense.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:They aren't part of the game...........

They are illegal..end of

Neither are PEDs??!!

No s**t

The point you're making is just so confusing.  Jab's analogy was a fair one and your response made no sense.

Combine your posts please..Don't want your tripe ruining my thread...

No confusion..........Cheating is acceptable or it isn't........

Now go away...........we all know you'd argue whatever thread I wrote..

Why combine my posts? I responding to two different ones of yours?

How about you take a punt at trying to combine some of your diatribe into a coherent argument?

Ok, I'll say cheating of any sort (by your silly definition) is not allowed.

Byebye Floyd's career, byebye ATG status.

Happy days.

Not suggesting cheating shouldn't be allowed.....

I'm suggesting people are happy to justify some forms but not others......

Why is assaulting Davey Moore acceptable........to the same people who call ped takers cheats..........

Because a hispanic referee lets him get away with it........

Aren't both morally wrong ??

It's Moores fault and his handlers fault that he wasn't man enough to stand up to Durans assault, don't send a boy in against man because he tends to get beaten up quite badly, brilliant performance and perfectly within the rules as the referee didn't warn him once.

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:It's Moores fault and his handlers fault that he wasn't man enough to stand up to Durans assault, don't send a boy in against man because he tends to get beaten up quite badly, brilliant performance and perfectly within the rules as the referee didn't warn him once.

well that's okay then...That newcastle boy who was out for six months from that Wigan boys shocking tackle...agrees with you too !!

Despite him getting away with it...

Different sport I don't care about discussing football on the boxing board nor do I think anyone else will.

Why do you have a problem with Pacquiaos ascent through the weights but not Mayweathers when apparently cheating in and out of the ring is the same?

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:It's Moores fault and his handlers fault that he wasn't man enough to stand up to Durans assault, don't send a boy in against man because he tends to get beaten up quite badly, brilliant performance and perfectly within the rules as the referee didn't warn him once.

cheating is ok If you get away with it......

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:Different sport I don't care about discussing football on the boxing board nor do I think anyone else will.

Why do you have a problem with Pacquiaos ascent through the weights but not Mayweathers when apparently cheating in and out of the ring is the same?

 

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:It's Moores fault and his handlers fault that he wasn't man enough to stand up to Durans assault, don't send a boy in against man because he tends to get beaten up quite badly, brilliant performance and perfectly within the rules as the referee didn't warn him once.

cheating is ok If you get away with it......

Hope your wife's reading this.........

Then presumably you will from now on stop questioning Pacquiaos apparent improved power at the higher weights, glad we got that one sorted out.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:Different sport I don't care about discussing football on the boxing board nor do I think anyone else will.

Why do you have a problem with Pacquiaos ascent through the weights but not Mayweathers when apparently cheating in and out of the ring is the same?

 

The only decent contribution you've offered today Mate..

I have cheated on my Wife I'm sorry to say.....

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:Then presumably you will from now on stop questioning Pacquiaos apparent improved power at the higher weights, glad we got that one sorted out.

If I question it.........It doesn't mean I condone or don't.........So it's irrelevant.. 

so what's your position then? do you even have one??

Position is..........All cheating shouldn't be tolerated.....not for people to pick and choose which should,,

Ok, that's fine. My position too.

Where do you relegate Floyd to in ATG stakes then since he is such a flagrant cheat in exactly the manner you describe?

And, as Terror points out, presumably you now have him and Pac level pegging since you can't denounce Pac's (rumoured) outside the ring activities without doing the same for Floyd's in-ring ones?

Surely the difference is that The Duran style cheating is something that the ref. could and should be responsible for detecting and preventing- disqualify him if neccessary , but PEDs are not detectable by the ref, and therefore can't be punished-it's completwly underhand, whilst butting etc might not be nice, it's done right out in the open- and it's up to the ref to deal with it- how many times do sports coaches tell their charges to play to the whistle? same thing as far I can see.

Pre-meditation is the key here Truss- similarly to in a law court society views a premeditated crime with a lot more outrage than something done in the heat of the moment such as elbows and low blows(even if it may have been pre-meditated). Margarito with his cement gloves and the guy who removed all the padding were viewed with equal, if not more outrage than those taking PEDS.

I can see where Truss is coming from, in one respect. I quite enjoy fighters who know how to handle themselves in that respect, within reason of course, but it does often get airbrushed out when they go over the top with it if it's a fighter we all like.

A couple of years or so apart, for instance, were Conteh-Parlov and Watt-O'Grady. Conteh's misfortune is readily brought up on these shores, and rightly so, whereas the farce between Watt and O'Grady tends to be airbrushed out of the picture, to the point where I've even seen people on here mentioning it as a good win for Watt! Good result on paper, maybe, but let's be honest, the whole event was a disgrace.

But as Horizontal rightly says, the big difference is that this kind of stuff is often only allowed to fester because of incompetent officials, whereas PED use stops with one man and one man only. There's no guarantees which way a fight will go at the opening bell and an argument can be made that this kind of rough stuff is merely a by-product of what unfolds in the ring, often in retaliation. No such problems with PED use, which has very clear objectives and motives.

Both are wrong, mind you, and Duran is one of many who got away with it a couple more times than he should have. Though the way Moore fought that night meant that he was always likely to be stopped eventually, he was at least doing reasonably well while he still had two eyes.

[quote="TRUSSMAN66"]

TopHat24/7 wrote:

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:Different sport I don't care about discussing football on the boxing board nor do I think anyone else will.

Why do you have a problem with Pacquiaos ascent through the weights but not Mayweathers when apparently cheating in and out of the ring is the same?

 

The only decent contribution you've offered today Mate..

I have cheated on my Wife I'm sorry to say.....[/quote]

What was his name?

Pekchenko wrote:Pre-meditation is the key here Truss-  similarly to in a law court  society views a premeditated crime with a lot more outrage than something done in the heat of the moment such as elbows and low blows(even if it may have been pre-meditated). Margarito with his cement gloves and the guy who removed all the padding were viewed with equal, if not more outrage than those taking PEDS.

Are you trying to tell me Duran's dirty tricks were spur of the moment......It was gaining an edge and he knew he wouldn't be thrown out..

In fairness, Truss, I've never actually been able to pinpoint when exactly Duran's thumb came in to play, with some arguing the first round, others saying the third. If it was the third, then no doubt Duran could excuse himself with the fact that Moore aimed a punch at him after the bell had sounded to end the second, which Duran had reacted very angrily to (albeit it was completely unintentional by Moore, who started winding the shot up a split second before the bell went).

I don't think anyone's really denying that Duran was a dirty so and so, particularly that night where he really should have been given at least a warning by the referee, but I still don't think you'll find many who agree that such a style of fighting is more understandable or acceptable than PED use, which is the real issue.

Duran - dirty.
Floyd - dirty.

Truss - conflicted.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Duran - dirty.
Floyd - dirty.

Truss - conflicted.

Tophat - Pointless

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Pekchenko wrote:Pre-meditation is the key here Truss-  similarly to in a law court  society views a premeditated crime with a lot more outrage than something done in the heat of the moment such as elbows and low blows(even if it may have been pre-meditated). Margarito with his cement gloves and the guy who removed all the padding were viewed with equal, if not more outrage than those taking PEDS.

Are you trying to tell me Duran's dirty tricks were spur of the moment......It was gaining an edge and he knew he wouldn't be thrown out..

 
Probably weren't but you can always argue they were instinctive actions- PEDS is pure pre-meditation, as were the concrete gloves no debate- society views all pre-meditated cheating far worse than spur of the moment stuff.

Obviously...........and rightly so.........But my thread suggests that all cheating should be condoned or none at all.......

The thing that your missing Truss is that there is a line between deliberate and accidental in a fight. The way certain boxers fight then a clash of heads will happen or they'll follow through on a punch and use the elbow but who's to say it was deliberate other than the referee.

Where as Peds are taking in the knowledge that it is not accidental 99% of the time and and cannot be explained away by a boxers fighting style

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Obviously...........and rightly so.........But my thread suggests that all cheating should be condoned or none at all.......

At least your finally able to criticise your beloved Floyd. Never thought I'd see that day.....

No1Jonesy wrote:The thing that your missing Truss is that there is a  line between deliberate and accidental in a fight. The way certain boxers fight then a clash of heads will happen or they'll follow through on a punch and use the elbow but who's to say it was deliberate other than the referee.

Where as Peds are taking in the knowledge that it is not accidental 99% of the time and and cannot be explained away by a boxers fighting style

wishful thinking..