Equality??

Here's a can of worms...

Club Championship...should women and men compete for the SAME trophy where
Men play off White Tees 6622 yards, Par 72, SSS 72
Women play off Red Tees 5732 yards Par 74, SSS 74 (and receive 2 courtesy shots!!)

Discuss

Can't see the point Jas, they'd get hammered as Club Champs are usually Scratch.

...lowest 36 hole gross score in my 2nd Club's Club Champs yesterday was a girl off Scratch shooting 143. (the 2 +3 brothers had a nightmare - well nightmare for them).

My take on it is that equality is equality and equality means everyone plays off the same tees and that the whole concept of courtesy shots is as hideously insulting to women as Muirfield's membership criteria.

If women feel they are good enough to compete against the men then fair play to them, let them. Knocking 900 yards off the course AND giving them 2 free shots however is NOT competing on a basis of equality.

JAS wrote:...lowest 36 hole gross score in my 2nd Club's Club Champs yesterday was a girl off Scratch shooting 143. (the 2  +3 brothers had a nightmare - well nightmare for them).

Wow, that's great, bet a lot of people didn't like that. Well done to her.

I didn't stay for the presentation as I was completely knackered but yeah, I can just imagine that there were a lot of murmurings. Had I shot 144 off the whites, I wouldn't have been best pleased either
But yes fair play to her, she clearly played well and she's only just out of the juniors. Can't criticise her at all.

Once handicaps are involved it isn't a real sporting contest anyway.

So may as well let everyone compete together.

You pick a tee and make sure you have a handicap from that set of tee's whether you be male, female, beast, junior, senior..whatever.

It is only for fun, so it would be better the more people involved.

McLaren wrote:Once handicaps are involved it isn't a real sporting contest anyway.

So may as well let everyone compete together.

You pick a tee and make sure you have a handicap from that set of tee's whether you be male, female, beast, junior, senior..whatever.

It is only for fun, so it would be better the more people involved.

Yes but should men and women be competing for the SAME trophy over what are effectively different courses and the women are given courtesy shots (what patronising Tool invented the concept of courtesy shots??)

Never come across a courtesy shoot but hopefully people having a handicap for the tee they use would get rid of that.

In my model anyone can play off any tee as long as they have gained a handicap for that set of tee's.

What kind of a concept is a "Handicap for that set of tees"? A CONGU handicap is a CONGU handicap, each golfer has one and only one and it is adjusted based on qualifying scores on any course.

I am guessing most clubs have about 4 sets of tee's and for men their CONGU handicap is valid on the back two sets.

So if you want to play of the forward tee's you can resubmit three cards playing from the front tee's and get a handicap for them.

The extra two shots are not 'courtesy shots'.

There's a tome from CONGU on this, the best distillation I know of is -

http://www.congu.com/faqs/old_site/Mixed%20Golf.pdf

I don't think it's a very good idea to have men and women competing for the same trophy. Equality to me is men and women competing on the same day, on the same greens, fairways, rough and hazards from separate tees for separate prizes.

Are women at the course allowed to play off any of the tees? Or is the red tee ladies tee always. What has to be equal about everyone competing from the same tee box. In terms of fairness for all involved it makes it a fairer competition how it has been setup. All women would be at a disadvantage straight away igh made to play a different course then usual.

The point is with my system there are no seperate draw sheets so people can play with whoever they want.

You can award the following

Scratch and handicap for each set of tee's

Overall handicap winner encompassing the play from all the tee's.

Has to be more fun than playing in men's medals with a bunch of folks who think they are on tour.

How long has the competition been held with these rules ? Has it caused issues before if so, why was it not changed if people feel strongly about equality. Or has it come to attention because a lady won?

McLaren wrote:I am guessing most clubs have about 4 sets of tee's and for men their CONGU handicap is valid on the back two sets.

So if you want to play of the forward tee's you can resubmit three cards playing from the front tee's and get a handicap for them.

Your handicap is only valid on however many sets of tees have been used in determining 'a measured course'. For most clubs, that is the set of tees normally used for competitions for men, and the set of tees usually used for competitions for women. A few courses have measured courses from all tees but they are the exception.

It makes much more sense to be able to play a competition from forward tees (for example in bad weather) but that seems to be beyond the scope of your average competition committee. Hence we have to trudge to the back tee to play a 460 yard par four into a howling gale.

Went up the Club earlier and got the proper picture. The Girl who won shot 147 but with 2 equalizing (not courtesy) shots per round her score was modified to 143 which beat the best bloke who shot 144. What I still don't get (call me thick) is that the equalising shots are deducted from the GROSS score not the Net and as well as getting 2 shots the ladies ALSO get to play a course 900 yards shorter, surely not right that they can have the best of both.

To me the Club Champion is the player who shoots the lowest gross score, any modification to the Gross score by definition becomes a NET score, eligible for a net prize if low enough but not gross.

JAS wrote: What I still don't get (call me thick) is that the equalising shots are deducted from the GROSS score not the Net and as well as getting 2 shots the ladies ALSO get to play a course 900 yards shorter, surely not right that they can have the best of both.

A typical lady scratch player would take 73 shots to go round the course as set up for ladies. A typical male scratch player would take 72 shots to go round the course as set up for men.

So the SSS for men is 72, against 73 for women. So if they are playing in the same event, the women are at a two stroke disadvantage (over 36 holes) before they tee it up on the first. Hence the equalisation.

seems ridiculous to me that a girl took more shots yet won the GROSS prize?

.

George explained it correctly. In your case JAS the ladies' SSS must be 2 shots more than the mens' meaning that when the course was assessed it is considered harder for the ladies (all other things being equal) than for a man. Hence the equalization shots. They aren't "courtesy" shots - that would just be patronising.

If the ladies' and mens' SSS were equal then there would be no equalization shots

To put it another way, let's say your Mens' SSS is 70, then the guy shot four over gross. If the Ladies' SSS is 72 then the girl shot 3 over gross - hence the win

I take your point about ladies and men playing different courses in the same comp but if you have mixed comps then that's the only way to do it. I must say I've never heard of a club championship being mixed - they should be separate comps .. but we have several board trophies that are mixed events

It may be me (sure it is) but if it's a GROSS comp, what difference does the men's vs. women's SSS make to anything? Surely it's about the lowest GROSS score, irrespective of whether the women's SSS is higher than the men's. Why on Earth are there 'equilisation' shots involved anywhere in this?

When ladies have played on the PGA tour haven't they played from the same tees as the men?...thought so. The score adjustment just devalues it further. Very silly, though if the playing field was level, or, it was a handicap event it would be fine by me.

Play from same tee and use handicap based on the same tees. Otherwise it doesnt make sense. Otherwise whats next? Trans gender rules, vegetarian rules?

I've played at a few courses where the competition tees are set up correctly for all the different boxes. A classic case is Victoria (Algarve) Starting with the forward tees we have juniors, ladies, seniors, professional ladies, gents, club comp tees and championship tees.

This means that pro ladies were getting an advantage of many yards over me going off the yellow, never mind white tees. At my own club there are ladies who hit the ball further than many of the men, yet get around a thousand yards advantage and an extra stroke.

I have no problems with playing against or with ladies, except in competitions, (Unless for fun) but giving someone who hits the ball further than me 1,000 yards and one stroke start?

I also accept that there are many, many more ladies who cannot drive the ball further than gents even from the red tees.

I'm not aware of any competitons at my club where juveniles compete against adult men - the view being the ability levels are just too different to easily devise a tee/handicap model that makes it properly fair. I don't see why it's any different for women - it sounds like PC for PC's sake.

I don't think it's possible to present a level playing field in golf between the sexes.  We play the same game but there's no getting away from the fact that, on a clubbing level, we play it differently.

Oh and what happened to the news forum.  Has super_realist been misbehaving again?

Not me Gael,
Someone else overstepped the mark I think. Happened whilst I was on holiday so never saw the fallout.

Morning s_r.  Flippin' 'eck.  Did someone mention PC?  Just when it was getting interesting too!

I know, I think people were getting a bit touchy about certain things.

Too many wet liberals on here that's wot I think!

I understand all the equalisation shots but to me that makes it a handicap comp. To me a club champs should be played off scratch and the same tees. If women want to join in, no problem but off the same tees, etc. By all means then have a separate champ for the comp as the one at JAS's course but give it a different name. Can be run at the same time so the men's, women's and mixed club champs are all decided together.

It no different to me playing a medal and saying I won with a net score but people beat my gross score. Clearly they are better players but we are playing a hc comp.

twoeightnine wrote:I understand all the equalisation shots but to me that makes it a handicap comp. To me a club champs should be played off scratch and the same tees. If women want to join in, no problem but off the same tees, etc. By all means then have a separate champ for the comp as the one at  JAS's course but give it a different name. Can be run at the same time so the men's, women's and mixed club champs are all decided together.

It no different to me playing a medal and saying I won with a net score but people beat my gross score. Clearly they are better players but we are playing a hc comp.

Blimey 289, I don't think male members would be at all happy at competing against 'wumin' ... especially on equal terms!    At least if they were giving stroke and distance they'd have an excuse for getting beaten!  Just look at how equipment standards have improved.  Bigger sweet spots, more forgiving irons not to mention advances in ... quite literally ... ball distance.  If we're talking best club players, I'm quite certain there are females out there who could give any club championship standard male a run for his money.

Still, even with modern equipment, I have to concede this doesn't alter the fact that the vast majority of club female golfers do not fly the ball very far through the air and the reason for this is entirely down to them taking up the game far too bleedin' late in life.

I agree with you though that the club championship should be played off scratch from the same tees.  To do anything else would lessen its value.