The Tigers v Ulster 'friendly' aka 'get your retaliation in first' Sat 31 Aug

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed 28 Aug 2013, 12:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

Code:: 15 Niall Morris 14 Scott Hamilton 13 Vereniki Goneva 12 Anthony Allen 11 Adam Thompstone 10 Toby Flood (c) 9 David Melé 1 Logovi'i Mulipola 2 Tom Youngs 3 Dan Cole 4 Louis Deacon 5 Geoff Parling 6 Tom Croft 7 Julian Salvi 8 Jordan Crane Replacements from Neil Briggs George Chuter Boris Stankovich Jérôme Schuster Fraser Balmain Tom Bristow Harry Wells Tom Price Sebastian de Chaves Michael Noone Jamie Gibson Thomas Waldrom Scott Steele George Tresidder Ryan Lamb Owen Williams Dan Bowden George Catchpole Henry Purdy Perry Humphreys

http://www.leicestertigers.com/news/17589.php#.UiG0oT-oEpU

Ulster XV and replacements to face Leicester Tigers, Pre-Season Friendly, Welford Road, Saturday 31st August (kick off 15:00);

(15-9): J Payne, A Trimble, L Marshall, C Farrell, D McIlwaine, J McKinney, P Marshall; (1-8): T Court, R Herring, R Lutton, J Muller (Captain), D Tuohy, R Diack, C Henry, R Wilson; Replacements: C Black, N Annett, D Fitzpatrick, A O’Connor, C Joyce, L Stevenson, M McComish, S Doyle, I Porter, P Jackson, M Allen, R Andrew.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/11694.php

This is a warm-up for serious business later in the season starting in October and I hope that both sides pit plenty of top-squadders against each other.

The front rows under the new Laws should be interesting.
If the ref applies them...

by **LondonTiger** Mon 02 Sep 2013, 11:56 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I wish I could have been there, hate to leave my seats empty
One seat per cheek?

you may well be right Sad

More mundanely, I have two season tickets that are used by various family members.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 02 Sep 2013, 12:02 pm

Ah, gotcha.

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon 02 Sep 2013, 1:53 pm

Code:: Leicester Tigers say action could be taken against the Ulster forward whose tackle saw Toby Flood knocked out in Saturday's pre-season fixture at Welford Road. Lock Dan Tuohy was yellow-carded for a high hit on the Tigers skipper just 10 minutes into Leicester's 30-10 victory. Flood lay motionless on the field after being knocked out cold and there was a 12-minute delay in the game as medics tended to him. The 28-year-old was taken to a waiting ambulance in a neck brace and with an oxygen mask strapped to his face. He spent the evening having tests and scans at Leicester Royal Infirmary on what is believed to be an injury to part of his neck or head. Although Flood tweeted a picture of himself from his hospital bed later that day with his thumbs up and the message "how is everyone else's day going?", it is almost inconceivable that he will be fit for next Sunday's Aviva Premiership opener against Worcester. That will be a big blow to the club, and Tigers backs coach Paul Burke, standing in for suspended director of rugby Richard Cockerill, said they were keen for justice to be done, if the video of the incident showed serious foul play. With no citing commissioner at the ground for the pre-season friendly, Tigers would have to instigate proceedings if they wanted to see Tuohy cited. "The referee deemed it a yellow card so if there was anything untoward in the tackle, we would expect the citing commission to have a look at it," he said. And in relation to Flood also being knocked unconscious in his last competitive game for the club at the Aviva Premiership final last May, Burke added: "Yet again, our chief play-maker is lying on the floor. "We will look at the video and, hopefully, the authorities will have a look at it and the necessary action will be taken. "It's not ideal because Floody is an important part of our team and we want the best players on the field. "We have got a good squad this year with Ryan Lamb and Owen Williams at fly-half but, ideally, we want Toby Flood playing for Leicester. "Hopefully, appropriate action will be taken and we will take it from there."

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Action-taken-horror-injury-Leicester-Tigers-Toby/story-19739160-detail/story.html#axzz2djtNPTXD

by yappysnap Mon 02 Sep 2013, 7:14 pm

One for him and one for the beer

by Hound of Harrow Tue 03 Sep 2013, 8:48 am

A London Welsh player was carded for leading with his forearm/elbow last season. Iirc it was referred by the ref to the TMO* to check for foul play.

* Thankfully all AP games will have a TMO this season, whether televised or not.

by Metal Tiger Tue 03 Sep 2013, 9:33 am

yappysnap wrote:One for him and one for the beer

There are 2 seats right in front of me & my pals in the Crumbie that are almost empty every game... I don't think I have seen anyone sat in them for the last 2 years. We did enquire at the ticket office if they were free as we had some friends who wanted to move up from the terrace but they are owned by a season ticket holder.

Not that I am complaining mind as we have readily used them for storing our beer/nachos!!

Are these the same seats!?

by **LondonTiger** Tue 03 Sep 2013, 9:35 am

Nah, I am in the Goldsmith's

by Metal Tiger Tue 03 Sep 2013, 9:40 am

yappysnap wrote:A lot of power players use that method of protecting the ball by hugging it to their chest and then fending with their elbow. I always thought that as long as they don't actually stick their elbow out at the tackler it was alright.

Remember a couple of seasons back Banahan KO'd a Scottish flanker with exactly the same technique and nothing happened to him. Likewise big guys in SuperRugby do it all the time.

I was at the game but seated in the Crumbie so opposite side of the pitch really. Never actually saw the incident in detail due to distance and other players in the eyeline. The main subject of discussion was "who was down" and a few wry comments about Flood starting the season as he ended it. We had the impression that it was a clash of heads from a blocking players running into Flood. Found out in the bar at half time from other pundits that it was a potential elbow in the face that sparked Floody out. I stress to add I have not seen any footage so cannot confirm or deny that assertion.

From the general discussion no one seemed to think it was deliberate. Stupid. But not deliberate.

by Metal Tiger Tue 03 Sep 2013, 9:49 am

Artful_Dodger wrote:Commentator on Radio Leicester said our back 3 made a lot of good breaks 3 of which ended in forward passes in the Tigers 22 any and all of which could have been trys. Hopefully that gets the rustiness out of the system for the start of the season next week.

Tis' true. Bad passes in the final phase ballsed up at least 2 to 3 very promising attacks by Ulster.

None of which can compare to Goneva making a cintilating break out down the wing, drew the final Ulster defender for a school boy 2 against 1 move and fired the try scoring pass straight into Niall Morris's boot laces. Much to the giggles of the fans who broke out into a quick choros of that "circus/juggling" tune.

Dat dat da da da da, dat dat da daaaaah!!

by Metal Tiger Tue 03 Sep 2013, 9:53 am

nathan wrote:Paul burke said he's conscious again and going through standard medial checks.

Tigers reporter gave Ryan lamb man of the match, didn't see that one coming!

A couple of nice breaks from Lamb, more than a few "long range floaty potential intercept type" passes which gave me the jitters and some just plain awful kicking. A reasonable home debut, but far from man of the match IMHO.

by Metal Tiger Tue 03 Sep 2013, 10:02 am

maverickmak wrote:

Seems to be leading with the arm. Possibly deliberate. Clumsy at least.

As a rule Tigers don't cite opposition players but that doesn't stop the citing official from following up on his own.

That picture does look bad, but has to be seen in context. Is it just a pumping arm as he tries to power through the tackle? Or has he just forearm smashed TF in the fizz? He got sin binned for it so that may well be the end of it.

by MrsP Tue 03 Sep 2013, 10:08 am

I read somewhere (?BBC) that the only way for a citing to happen in a friendly was for a club to refer the incident.

Can't say if that's correct though.

by Artful_Dodger Tue 03 Sep 2013, 10:15 am

MrsP wrote:I read somewhere (?BBC) that the only way for a citing to happen in a friendly was for a club to refer the incident.

Can say if that's correct though.

Paul Burke says if they think there is foul play they will refer it to the citing commissioner. Suggest to me that they don't know if its worth referring yet or not, in fact I'm not sure there is footage of it as one would have thought that it would have come to light by now.

by Portnoy's Complaint Tue 03 Sep 2013, 11:37 am

The only anecdotal evidence I've heard is from MT and my brother both of whom were on the far side of the pitch apparently and didn't see anything untoward but both independently thought that there was a clash of head. My brother also says that there didn't appear to be a great reaction of outrage from the crowd on the touchline nearest the incident.

But there will presumably be some in-house video footage of the incident.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 03 Sep 2013, 1:27 pm

Do I remember incorrectly that Tigers are (or used to be) a non-citing club?

by **LondonTiger** Tue 03 Sep 2013, 1:36 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Do I remember incorrectly that Tigers are (or used to be) a non-citing club?

Supposedly.

Though that is more a PR stance than anything, as within a competition there are citing officers etc. Even then how often do we hear "We are not a citing club but.... weare sure the officials would liek to look at....".

by Artful_Dodger Tue 03 Sep 2013, 1:36 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Do I remember incorrectly that Tigers are (or used to be) a non-citing club?

One of the Tigers fans said that in this post (think it was LondonTiger) but Paul Burke (Tigers Assistant Coach) has said they will cite if they think there has been foul play. Which their obviously has to some degree if Tuohy was yellow carded. We'll have to wait and see what happens. I think the yellow card will probably be the end of it whether Tigers cite or not, I can't see Tuohy picking up much of a ban if the referee saw it clearly and didn't think it was worthy of a red.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 03 Sep 2013, 1:44 pm

T'was not me Dodger, but yeah Paul Burke was asked "Will you cite" by the Leicestershire reporter who hangs aroundf the training paddock, and replied "If we feel there was serious foul play".

That makes the local news and then the papers pick up on it and we all discuss ad nauseum. The life of this interweb thingy I guess Very Happy

by Artful_Dodger Tue 03 Sep 2013, 1:48 pm

Well.....he said he expects the citing commissioner to have a look at it and said that he was hopeful that action will be taken. Hoping action will be taken is a bit stronger than saying 'IF' there was foul play as he seems to have decided that there was from the quotes in this article....

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Action-taken-horror-injury-Leicester-Tigers-Toby/story-19739160-detail/story.html#axzz2djtNPTXD

Are there any updates on Flood himself? I imagine he'll be out for at least a couple of week with the mandatory time out for concussion.

by Portnoy's Complaint Tue 03 Sep 2013, 2:47 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Well.....he said he expects the citing commissioner to have a look at it and said that he was hopeful that action will be taken. Hoping action will be taken is a bit stronger than saying 'IF' there was foul play as he seems to have decided that there was from the quotes in this article....

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Action-taken-horror-injury-Leicester-Tigers-Toby/story-19739160-detail/story.html#axzz2djtNPTXD

Are there any updates on Flood himself? I imagine he'll be out for at least a couple of week with the mandatory time out for concussion.

Is

AD wrote:Well.....he said he expects the citing commissioner to have a look at it and said that he was hopeful that action will be taken. Hoping action will be taken is a bit stronger than saying 'IF' there was foul play as he seems to have decided that there was from the quotes in this article....

a fair summary of http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Action-taken-horror-injury-Leicester-Tigers-Toby/story-19739160-detail/story.html#axzz2djtNPTXD

or a creative interpretation of it?

by MrsP Tue 03 Sep 2013, 2:49 pm

The mandatory time out for concussion is now 5 days minimum.

Yes, that's right, a whole 5 days so long as you can convince a doctor that you have no symptoms in any of the stages of the Graduated Return To Play (GRTP) protocol.

Of course that relies on the players reporting symptoms.

I make no apology whatsoever for taking another opportunity to bang the "CONCUSSION IS SERIOUS" drum.

https://www.606v2.com/t22009-advice-on-when-to-return-to-play-after-a-concussion

Especially not today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23943642

by Artful_Dodger Tue 03 Sep 2013, 2:53 pm

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:Well.....he said he expects the citing commissioner to have a look at it and said that he was hopeful that action will be taken. Hoping action will be taken is a bit stronger than saying 'IF' there was foul play as he seems to have decided that there was from the quotes in this article....

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Action-taken-horror-injury-Leicester-Tigers-Toby/story-19739160-detail/story.html#axzz2djtNPTXD

Are there any updates on Flood himself? I imagine he'll be out for at least a couple of week with the mandatory time out for concussion.

Is
AD wrote:Well.....he said he expects the citing commissioner to have a look at it and said that he was hopeful that action will be taken. Hoping action will be taken is a bit stronger than saying 'IF' there was foul play as he seems to have decided that there was from the quotes in this article....
a fair summary of http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Action-taken-horror-injury-Leicester-Tigers-Toby/story-19739160-detail/story.html#axzz2djtNPTXD

or a creative interpretation of it?

Where is the creative interpretation exactly?

I said he expects the citing commissioner to have a look at it....

Paul Burke said "we would expect the citing commission to have a look at it,"

I said he was hopeful action would be taken...

Paul Burke said "hopefully, the authorities will have a look at it and the necessary action will be taken."

Don't see any room for creative interpretation I've just said Burke said exactly what he said. What parts of my post are you insinuating were exaggerated?

by MrsP Tue 03 Sep 2013, 3:13 pm

I really don't understand the whole,

"We don't cite"

thing.

It isn't about telling tales or "manning up" or whatever, it's about player safety and if you think an incident should be reported in the interests of player safety then that is what you should do. That is not to say that you should try to deliberately get your opponents in hot water but if there is an issue which needs addressed then it is in everyone's interest to address it.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 03 Sep 2013, 3:38 pm

MrsP it is bull any way. We scream and shout instead applying pressure on the authorities to act.

by MrsP Tue 03 Sep 2013, 4:03 pm

Ah ha! The old "Passive Aggressive" approach!

Very Happy

by formerly known as Sam Tue 03 Sep 2013, 5:29 pm

I believe the traditional stance of not citing comes from the amateur saying of what happens on the pitch stays on the pitch. Given that the Hawkins incident nearly sparked a post game brawl there may be a slight erosion of this principle these days.

As we haven't seen the footage we cannot say but if Burke and the Tigers coaches have seen the incident played back and think there was foul play then there is a case to answer as striking a player with your forearm in the tackle is genuinely unpleasant thing to do. I should know my opposite number tried it on Saturday and when I drove him back anyway proceeded to rake the side of my face with his nails. I was not amused.

Then again I didn't opt to cite (the ref pinged the forearm but missed the rake) so I had the option with committee members present. I chose not to, I dumped him on his backside a couple of times (legally) and let him know how little I thought of him and ensured he and his team lost. That was ample retribution for me.

by Portnoy's Complaint Tue 03 Sep 2013, 7:21 pm

MrsP wrote:Ah ha! The old "Passive Aggressive" approach!

Think that it's the "Aggressive Passive Aggressive" approach Mrs P. It took 'til about 2005 until the Tiger cottoned on to how professionalism works.

Now they just wait until the compensation claim lawyers get in touch.

by Portnoy's Complaint Fri 06 Sep 2013, 11:26 am

The Grauniad wrote:

Ulster lock Dan Tuohy escapes citing for high tackle on Toby Flood

• England fly-half was knocked out in pre-season friendly
• Leicester coach Richard Cockerill fuming at no RFU action

Thursday 5 September 2013 23.31 BST

The Ulster lock Dan Tuohy has avoided a citing for the high tackle that put the England fly-half Toby Flood in hospital.

Flood, the Leicester captain, was knocked out during last Saturday's pre-season victory for the home side at Welford Road and spent the night at Leicester Royal Infirmary where scans revealed no further damage. He will miss the Tigers' Premiership opener against Worcester at Welford Road on Sunday on medical advice.

Tuohy was sent to the sin-bin for the offence but the Rugby Football Union has revealed it would be unable to take further action due to a disciplinary loophole – that it will now seek to close – arising out of the game's pre-season status.

"Ulster players were not subject to the RFU's jurisdiction in this match and as a result no action can be taken," an RFU spokesperson said. "Clubs can agree how discipline should be dealt with in advance of such games and we're looking to see how we can make sure this always happens in the future."

The inability to cite Tuohy will further infuriate Richard Cockerill, who earlier this week called for the incident to be investigated. Leicester's director of rugby said: "It's these sort of things that will stop little Johnny coming to mini-rugby on a Sunday morning. Once again our playmaker has been hit and we have lost him from the game. It is illegal. You would expect the powers-that-be to have a look at that."

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/05/dan-tuohy-leicester-toby-flood

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 06 Sep 2013, 11:33 am

The Grauniad wrote:The inability to cite Tuohy will further infuriate Richard Cockerill, who earlier this week threw his TV remote through a window because the batteries were flat and smashed his kettle because it wasn't coming to the boil quickly enough.

by Metal Tiger Fri 06 Sep 2013, 11:35 am

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
The inability to cite Tuohy will further infuriate Richard Cockerill, who earlier this week called for the incident to be investigated. Leicester's director of rugby said: "It's these sort of things that will stop little Johnny coming to mini-rugby on a Sunday morning. Once again our playmaker has been hit and we have lost him from the game. It is illegal. You would expect the powers-that-be to have a look at that."

I always thought we didn't cite and left any action to the RFU. Obviously I was wrong in believing that assertion. Cockers, it seems, is very cross with the RFU (let's face it... when isn't he?) over them taking no action against Tuohy/Forearm O'Smashy.

by Metal Tiger Fri 06 Sep 2013, 11:37 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
The Grauniad wrote:The inability to cite Tuohy will further infuriate Richard Cockerill, who earlier this week threw his TV remote through a window because the batteries were flat and smashed his kettle because it wasn't coming to the boil quickly enough.

It's a good thing to have characters in your club.

by Portnoy's Complaint Fri 06 Sep 2013, 11:43 am

The Grauniad is a well-established alias of the Guardian, LP.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Grauniad

I prefer quotes to be established and supported by genuine contexts.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 06 Sep 2013, 11:44 am

I knew that, Portnoy. I was only having a laugh.

by Portnoy's Complaint Fri 06 Sep 2013, 11:50 am

I know that you know, LP.

Only the report has an underling seriousness. Head trauma are a definitely underrated aspect of (pro-)rugby.

Ask MrsP.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 06 Sep 2013, 11:53 am

I don't dispute it.

by Portnoy's Complaint Fri 06 Sep 2013, 12:10 pm

""Ulster players were not subject to the RFU's jurisdiction in this match and as a result no action can be taken," an RFU spokesperson said. "Clubs can agree how discipline should be dealt with in advance of such games and we're looking to see how we can make sure this always happens in the future."

I wonder if this quote from of the RFU emanates from a Tigers' prompt or from within.

It might have all sorts of consequences on inter-league club tours at Easter etc. should the host team's Union not have jurisdiction on matters of potential foul/dangerous play.

by **Notch** Fri 06 Sep 2013, 12:25 pm

Would I be overly cynical in saying Cockerill is half looking after his player and half looking for ammunition to use in the media in the week of our game against them in the Heineken Cup?

It's hard to know what to think when there are only pictures to go on. It probably would have been better for everyone if their had been a citing. Either be cleared of wrongdoing or get a minor slap on the wrist and by the time the Heineken Cup comes around we have a clean slate.

by Portnoy's Complaint Fri 06 Sep 2013, 1:18 pm

Notch wrote:Would I be overly cynical in saying Cockerill is half looking after his player and half looking for ammunition to use in the media in the week of our game against them in the Heineken Cup?

It's hard to know what to think when there are only pictures to go on. It probably would have been better for everyone if their had been a citing. Either be cleared of wrongdoing or get a minor slap on the wrist and by the time the Heineken Cup comes around we have a clean slate.

I dunno, Notch, about half as cynical as the OP title?

by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Sep 2013, 2:18 pm

I don't think Cockerill is that astutely minded. He really isn't what you'd call a political animal. I doubt he's thought that far ahead but similarly I doubt he'll forget and the media certainly won't.

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