ATG Lists

How would your ATG lists differ between what someone has actually achieved, compared to the talent that they actually have.

As an example, Joe Calzaghe could be a top 10 p4p British fighter if he had the bottle to travel, as it happens he didnt so would not make the British list for me.

Any good examples of a fighter you would move out the list based on talent, and any you would include who perhaps did not have the quality of opposition on their time...

It's the perennial question isn't it, Jack ?

I'm guilty of chopping and changing. By way of example, Foreman is a nailed on top ten heavy, for me, yet his record ( as champion, anyway, ) is no great shakes. I judge him purely on the basis of his having been one of the most ferocious and devastating fighters in history. The other side of the coin is that I'll happily sing the praises of another fighter, based on his record, even though another fighter whom I would place lower might actually be considered the more talented.

I dare say I'm not the only one who is guilty of this, by a long way. Probably goes a long way toward explaining the wide disparity of opinion we often see in ATG lists, even among acknowledged experts.

Foreman is an ATG on the basis of him destroying Frazier twice. I cant see him anywhere in the top 10 for me. His record and talent do not belong in the Top 10. Tyson has a better record than him yet GF ranks higher. I think there's some form of nostalgia with the HW in the Ali/Frazier/Foreman era.

Tyson crumbled against average fighters, cant really see a case for moving him any higher, in fact, I would move him down.

RJJ would be a good shout. Skill in abundance but fought far to many average fighters. Fights with Hagler, Spinks etc... would be very interesting to watch.

azania wrote:Foreman is an ATG on the basis of him destroying Frazier twice. I cant see him anywhere in the top 10 for me. His record and talent do not belong in the Top 10. Tyson has a better record than him yet GF ranks higher. I think there's some form of nostalgia with the HW in the Ali/Frazier/Foreman era.

C'mon, az, don't let's kick THAT one off again.

Jack is asking if we value record, talent or both. Nostalgia, etc., aren't part of the central issue and neither, specifically, is Foreman.

This is an interesting topic. Let's stay on track.

Not kicking anything off again windy. They had colour TV then.

I place more emphasis on their ability at their peak. For instance I would place Bowe above Lenox on talent and ability but lewis ahead on achievement.

Now what did GF achieve that Lennox didn't? How long was his reign compared to Lewis. Ditto Frazier although Joe has the escape clause given he beat Ali and gave him absolute hell later also.

I would put Ali top, Holmes second,Louis third and a toss up for the rest but with GF not in there and Tyson definately nailed on in there.

azania wrote:Not kicking anything off again windy. They had colour TV then.

So they did, mate. Silly me.

ATG stands for all time great and you become a great fighter by beating great fighters.

So I judge fighters on the the quality of fighters they beat in the ring.