Old vs New

Bearing in mind all the technological advances in training techniques and diets, do you think that any of the average fighters of today, would do better against some of the legends of yesteryear?

And are there any average fighters of yesteryear who would have excelled with todays training regimes?

Whatever timeline you want to go in, who gets better?

Jamie Moore would beat Sugar Ray Robinson, for sure.

Sports science is just too advanced.

One of my favourite quotes ever Scott. Yep them nutrition shakes that improve your ability to absorb a punch are brilliant.

Do neither of you think that fighters have become fitter and stronger due to advances in tech/ diet?

I am not talking about the ability to take a punch, I am talking about training and conditioning.

Personally don't think so how and why would you make someone like Ray Robinson better ? Or Ali for instance ?

I always like the argument that guys like Robinson, Louis ect are dated and the training regimes are not a patch on today, yet Ali for whatever reason can't be improved even though he's peak is almost 50 years ago.

Cheers Rodders

Balanced to a certain extent by a lot them not staying in shape all year round but yes. But a lot of boxers had no problem fighting 15 rounds.

It's still mainly a technique sport, and the difference conditioning would really make would I guess depend on the individual. Someone who uses their strength for in fighting/keeps a high workrate etc would benefit more than a sporadic technique-based counter puncher.

No doubt sports science has advanced, but also a lot of experts believe boxing specific training methods have deteriorated. Coupled with lack of experience in fighting compared to old 150, 300 etc fight pros.

Pros and cons.

I'm of the opinion most sports have improved, in fact in probably 8/10 cases it is statistically proven. In boxing I there is a slight difference due to weight categories which effectively rule size/power out of the equation. At heavyweight however that is another matter.

seanmichaels wrote:I'm of the opinion most sports have improved, in fact in probably 8/10 cases it is statistically proven. In boxing I there is a slight difference due to weight categories which effectively rule size/power out of the equation. At heavyweight however that is another matter.

No different from weightlifting weight categories, you can improve p4p strength. But the impact strength has on punching power doesn't seem convincing (although it does seem logical).

Scottrff wrote:

seanmichaels wrote:I'm of the opinion most sports have improved, in fact in probably 8/10 cases it is statistically proven. In boxing I there is a slight difference due to weight categories which effectively rule size/power out of the equation. At heavyweight however that is another matter.

No different from weightlifting weight categories, you can improve p4p strength. But the impact strength has on punching power doesn't seem convincing (although it does seem logical).

Can't work out whether you're agreeing or not?

Oh yeah, the classic Jamie Moore line. I'd forgotten all about that!

Anyway, I think Scott (good to see you back by the way) has it right when he says there's a bit of truth on both sides. As I said in my article on Gene Tunney the other week, it's unrealistic to pretend that the early forerunners of gloved boxing like Corbett, Fitzsimmons et all could compete with their more modern counterparts using the same techniques and styles as they did then. Nowt to do with human evolution or anything, and there's every chance that, had they been born decades later in to a more developed sport, they'd have simply shifted their natural gifts in to that new direction and been successful anyway, but in terms of pure technique and style, the sport has moved on a lot since then.

I think by the twenties, with guys such as Tunney and Benny Leonard hitting their primes, we were starting to see the first men who could be dropped in to any era and still be great without having to change anything.

Anyway, that's only the technique side of things. As for fitness and all that jazz, well you'd have to be a bit closed-minded to deny that studies in sports science mean that we've found additional ways to get that extra couple of percent from the body, but it is still only a couple of percent, at the end of the day.

Fighters like Mayweather, for instance, still build their training around road work, calisthenics, sparring, padwork and light weights. Naturally, he has a few more modern add-ons as anyone would, but if you get down to the meat of it all, it's not a million miles away from the methods that someone like Jim Jeffries used.

As others say, I think a lot of it is down to the individual. Chris Arreola would have been a chunky Heavyweight with questionable conditioning in any era, I imagine, and likewise Tunney would always have been a supremely fit and well-conditioned one.

Nobody, just by watching them in action, could conclusively argue that either Mayweather or Ray Robinson was the fitter of the pair, which kind of illustrates my general jist.

Given modern technology, dieting,nutrition personal fitness training, would Sugar Ray have lost to Maxim due to heat exhaustion, I think definitely not.

If only ice was invented in those days!

Maybe, Nico. But then again, plenty of fighters have quit or had to be pulled out due to heat exhaustion since Robinson's days, so I wouldn't feel comfortable being so sure of it. 104 degrees, as it was reported to be at ringside, is enough to see anyone off. You only need to look at tennis and how many retirements during matches there have been at the Australian Open in the past few years to see that.

Offhand I can't think of many fighters today who've pulled out of fights due to severe heat exhaustion,Robinson was staggering like a drunk.

Well I can't think of too many fighters today on the big stage fighting in 100 + degree heat, either! Back in the days of outside fights in Vegas we still saw fighters complaining that the heat was too much for them (McGuigan against Cruz, Nelson against Fenech etc). Both closer to present day than Robinson-Maxim.

But certainly in other sports we still see athletes, and very professional ones too, succumbing to severe temprature, or at least seriously struggling with it. I've already mentioned tennis down under, but I remember supreme athletes such as Zinedine Zidane throwing up on the pitch due to the intense heat in Portugal in Euro 2004 (before calmly slotting away the penalty which defeated England!), Paula Radcliffe falling apart at the Athens Olympics during the marathon that same year etc, all relatively recently.

I don't completely rule out what you're saying, just highlighting that I don't think there can be any certainty about it.

you could argue that frazier was pulled out... and ali ready to quit on his stool... in the thrilla was as much about heat exhaustion as punches landed... not that there was a shortage of punches landed.

whether you'd call them modern fighters, i don't know

88Chris05 wrote:Well I can't think of too many fighters today on the big stage fighting in 100 + degree heat, either! Back in the days of outside fights in Vegas we still saw fighters complaining that the heat was too much for them (McGuigan against Cruz, Nelson against Fenech etc). Both closer to present day than Robinson-Maxim.

But certainly in other sports we still see athletes, and very professional ones too, succumbing to severe temprature, or at least seriously struggling with it. I've already mentioned tennis down under, but I remember supreme athletes such as Zinedine Zidane throwing up on the pitch due to the intense heat in Portugal in Euro 2004 (before calmly slotting away the penalty which defeated England!), Paula Radcliffe falling apart at the Athens Olympics during the marathon that same year etc, all relatively recently.

I don't completely rule out what you're saying, just highlighting that I don't think there can be any certainty about it.

McGuigans fight with Cruz was in 140 degree heat in the Nevada desert not good for a pale faced Irishman,Cruz's odds went from 9/1 to 2/1 just before the fight somebody knew something wasn't right. I think Zidane throwing up more through nerves than anything else, he knew how important that penalty was.

milkyboy wrote:you could argue that frazier was pulled out... and ali ready to quit on his stool... in the thrilla was as much about heat exhaustion as punches landed... not that there was a shortage of punches landed.

whether you'd call them modern fighters, i don't know

That fight had nowt to do with exhaustion it was brutal.

It was a brutal fight, fought in temperatures estimated at well over 100 degrees. The heat played its part in the exhaustion of both fighters... according to them

Aye, but McGuigan was still a very, very fit lad. And Bernard Taylor was forced to jack it in against Barry only a year before that in a sweltering Kings Hall in Belfast due to heat, it's worth remembering. It's not just pasty Irishmen who are at risk!

I believe Zidane stated that it was the heat which had him in tatters, and I can't imagine such a usually cool customer (unless you insult his mother, of course) who produced it time and time again in pressure situations being in a state of such nerves over a penalty, but I guess we'll never know.

Anyway, I'm no expert (I know you're all shocked) and that's my two pennies worth!

milkyboy wrote:you could argue that frazier was pulled out... and ali ready to quit on his stool... in the thrilla was as much about heat exhaustion as punches landed... not that there was a shortage of punches landed.

whether you'd call them modern fighters, i don't know

Almost literally sick to the back teeth of this "Ali was ready to quit on his stool" carp. There was no way either of those guys would quit. They hated/respected each other far too much to ever let that happen. They'd have fought another 15 rounds just to get the win, that's the kind of men they were.

Then again how many natural welterweights would have outboxed Maxim to start with?

The Terror of Tylorstown wrote:Then again how many natural welterweights would have outboxed Maxim to start with?

Bradley Pryce?

DAVE667 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:you could argue that frazier was pulled out... and ali ready to quit on his stool... in the thrilla was as much about heat exhaustion as punches landed... not that there was a shortage of punches landed.

whether you'd call them modern fighters, i don't know

Almost literally sick to the back teeth of this "Ali was ready to quit on his stool" carp. There was no way either of those guys would quit. They hated/respected each other far too much to ever let that happen. They'd have fought another 15 rounds just to get the win, that's the kind of men they were.

well we don't know, but we know he was donald ducked afterwards

can you be 'almost literally'... perhaps you can - where's rowley, our resident linguistics obergruppenfuhrer to enlighten us on the correct usage of literal and figurative.

milkyboy wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:you could argue that frazier was pulled out... and ali ready to quit on his stool... in the thrilla was as much about heat exhaustion as punches landed... not that there was a shortage of punches landed.

whether you'd call them modern fighters, i don't know

Almost literally sick to the back teeth of this "Ali was ready to quit on his stool" carp. There was no way either of those guys would quit. They hated/respected each other far too much to ever let that happen. They'd have fought another 15 rounds just to get the win, that's the kind of men they were.

well we don't know, but we know he was donald ducked afterwards

can you be 'almost literally'... perhaps you can - where's rowley, our resident linguistics obergruppenfuhrer to enlighten us on the correct usage of literal and figurative.

I can feel the gorge rising in my throat but it's yet to pass my epiglotis therefore hasn't quite reached my back teeth

it's interesting when people compare old and new they mention ali and robinson - the 2 best ever. there are thousands of other fighters that could have benefited from the knowledge we've learned about diet and nutrition.

Modern fighters might look fitter and may be more athletic but fighters from decades gone were better schooled, tougher and fight fit. 15 round fighters who'd learned how to fight by fighting regularly.

Joe Louis would murder Wlad - Robinson would wallop Floyd.

hazharrison wrote:Modern fighters might look fitter and may be more athletic but fighters from decades gone were better schooled, tougher and fight fit. 15 round fighters who'd learned how to fight by fighting regularly.

Joe Louis would murder Wlad - Robinson would wallop Floyd.

Would like to see how a modern fighter would go fighting 7 times a year or so against half decent opposition. Or before the days of drugs, hahemm mr Jones jr, pacquiao, Marquez, holy et co.

Izzi wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Modern fighters might look fitter and may be more athletic but fighters from decades gone were better schooled, tougher and fight fit. 15 round fighters who'd learned how to fight by fighting regularly.

Joe Louis would murder Wlad - Robinson would wallop Floyd.

Would like to see how a modern fighter would go fighting 7 times a year or so against half decent opposition. Or before the days of drugs, hahemm mr Jones jr, pacquiao, Marquez, holy et co.

Three of the fighters you mentioned have never tested positive for using illegal substances, therefore sir your evidence is hearsay and circumstancial.

Modern fighters are fitter of that there is no doubt........My worry is that they are overtrained......

Most fighters back in the day smoked cigarrettes and had all sorts of bad habits....

Also back in the old days referees seldom broke fighters as quick as they do today..clinches took up a fair measure of any round...and fights these days are quicker paced......

What I will say though is back in the day they were probably more singleminded and motivated and willing to go that extra mile because in those days you had to win to eat..and hunger makes you sacrifice more...

A negligent welfare system back then which started after the great depression meant that you were fighting to live.......

Fighters these days know losing isn't the end of the World...

However People know which foods to eat..which foods to avoid.........creatine.........sleep/train ratios...

Drugs helped the oldish timers also.............Steroids were wildly available from the 50/60s on and where there is money to be made I'll show you cheats....

Have no doubts a lot of fighters were taking drugs in the 60s/70s/80s.....

Old fighters were fit but it's folly to say they are as fit as fighters these days they are not....

Football, soccer, cricket, athletics shows that............

I'd like to find a modern fighter who's fitter than Armstrong or Maxim Truss.

Maybe they are the exceptions to the rule............

I imagine the guys you mention would be dynamite now.......but both I imagine smoked cigars and weren't high on nutrient requirement..

Or in the case of Armstrong he was a physiological freak who could set a pace that I doubt anyone today could match or there's your Hayes of the world who gets tired throwing 10 punches a round.

Didn't Armstrong have an enlarged heart which enabled the oxygen to get round the body quicker.

Also an abnormally slow pulse rate too, LJ.

How low we talking here Chris?

Some cyclists get them below 30... Madness!

Not sure, just seen suff like "abnormally slow" quoted quite a few times with regards to it. I think it was Armstrong himself who made this claim, rather than it being documented medically, so difficult to put a number on it. The enlarged heart is genuine, though.

I remember reading stats on Armstrong and while he was a freak there were others that could absorb oxygen more efficiently. Armstrong didn't suffer as much lactic acid build up as others but then again he was juiced to the gills and probably shooting more than any other rider.

I thought you were talking bout henry armstrong rather than lance?

i always thought zidane threw up purely through nerves, remember the game being a 8pm kick off so cant imagine it was that warm in portugal

Think as others have said if sports science does give you anything it is a couple of percent maximum. My own view though is this tends to be more than offset by the frequency with which old timers fought. There is no substitute for experience, in any sport and whoever many fights we believe it takes, be it 30, 40 or 50 to become a well rounded fighter the reality is on the whole old timers got to that point quicker.

Would seem obvious to me you are a far better fighter if you have gained this experience whilst you still have all the physical gifts to use it to your maximum advantage. Should say though that talent is talent. Leonard did not have 40 fights throughout his career and you can chuck him in with any welter you want around the time of the Hearns fight and he is going to compete at the very minimum, likewise Floyd.

I reckon Archie Moore sucking the juices out of meat and spitting the rest out was just about the pinnacle of sports diet and nutrition.

I thought Ricardo Mayorga eating chicken at the weigh-in ran that a close second

DAVE667 wrote:I thought Ricardo Mayorga eating chicken at the weigh-in ran that a close second

was it cooked?

Strongback wrote:I remember reading stats on Armstrong and while he was a freak there were others that could absorb oxygen more efficiently.  Armstrong didn't suffer as much lactic acid build up as others but then again he was juiced to the gills and probably shooting more than any other rider.

  

Union Cane wrote:

Strongback wrote:I remember reading stats on Armstrong and while he was a freak there were others that could absorb oxygen more efficiently.  Armstrong didn't suffer as much lactic acid build up as others but then again he was juiced to the gills and probably shooting more than any other rider.

  

Here's an article on ATG V02 scores and you will see Armstrong is not at the top.

As for the juicing look up Oprah on YouTube.


BTW good boy.

Holy moley, Oprah's not on steroids as well is she. Suprised that woman who refused to sll her a handbag wasn't the victim of Oproid Rage

Strongback wrote:

Union Cane wrote:

Strongback wrote:I remember reading stats on Armstrong and while he was a freak there were others that could absorb oxygen more efficiently.  Armstrong didn't suffer as much lactic acid build up as others but then again he was juiced to the gills and probably shooting more than any other rider.

  

Here's an article on ATG V02 scores and you will see Armstrong is not at the top.

As for the juicing look up Oprah on YouTube.


BTW good boy.

What tickled me was the fact that in the middle of a discussion on the boxing board about the boxer Henry Armstrong, you chip in with a comment about a cyclist. I can see why you made the error, as both are called Armstrong, but still.

Union Cane wrote:

Strongback wrote:

Union Cane wrote:

Strongback wrote:I remember reading stats on Armstrong and while he was a freak there were others that could absorb oxygen more efficiently.  Armstrong didn't suffer as much lactic acid build up as others but then again he was juiced to the gills and probably shooting more than any other rider.

  

Here's an article on ATG V02 scores and you will see Armstrong is not at the top.

As for the juicing look up Oprah on YouTube.


BTW good boy.

What tickled me was the fact that in the middle of a discussion on the boxing board about the boxer Henry Armstrong, you chip in with a comment about a cyclist. I can see why you made the error, as both are called Armstrong, but still.

Leave it Union. I am not sure this particular spider has any legs left.