English clubs "grand standing" and cannot leave Heineken Cup until 2015 according to ex RFU Chairman.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24074931

The current two European competitions, the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup, involve teams from England, France, Ireland, Italy, Scotland, Wales, Portugal and Romania.
However, the English and French argue their qualification criteria are much tougher and put them at a disadvantage in the competitions.
They served notice to quit the tournament in 2012, however, Thomas does not believe their proposed alternative can get off the ground.
"It's grandstanding," he said.
"The ERC (European Rugby Cup) agreement was signed, and it was signed subsequently to an agreement that the RFU and PRL [Premier Rugby Ltd] and each individual club entered into and that was in 2007.
"One of the terms of the agreement was that the Premiership clubs would remain playing in Europe until the end of that agreement with the RFU.
"The RFU have got to stand up and be counted, it's not a popularity competition being at the RFU."
RFU chief executive Ian Ritchie has since released a statement stating that his organisation is "supportive of the Premiership clubs seeking greater meritocracy," while stressing that rugby should "continue to thrive and grow" and urging "compromise on both sides".
Thomas also expects the French Rugby Federation and International Rugby Board to block any move to form a new tournament.
"The clubs in England require the consent of their union, the teams in France require the consent of their union," he said.
"Pierre Camou is probably one of the strongest presidents in world rugby - he is a tough guy.
"Also, because it's a cross border they require the consent of the IRB and they have a French chairman in Bernard Lapasset.
"There is no way that those two Frenchmen are going to give consent for this to occur."

TrailApe wrote:

Bath has done well to get Strings (thanks Munster for developing such a fine player)

I like to think it was the Falcons that developeed Stringer after Saracens messed him about. 

After all, Munster were never really known for their forwards game  were they?

The. Best. Pack. Ever.

Sin é wrote:Sarries v Toulouse H Cup tickets available for a £5 with Groupon  

I tell you, these businessman with their silly ideas! Aiming to make more money by selling a high number cheaply, when has that ever worked?!

alcoombe wrote:

Sin é wrote:Sarries v Toulouse H Cup tickets available for a £5 with Groupon  

I tell you, these businessman with their silly ideas!  Aiming to make more money by selling a high number cheaply, when has that ever worked?!

I'd worry about these businessmen if they can't sell out a stadium in a city of 12m people without serious discounting, to watch two of the supposedly leading clubs in Europe.

I've just seen the tv viewing figures for

BT Sport's rugby double-header London Irish v Saracens and London Wasps v Harlequins attracted 77,000 and 103,000 viewers on average.

Meanwhile in the Rabo last October 46K were at the Leinster v Munster game in the Aviva and 240,000 watched it on TG4.

Those businessmen should have a look at how the Irish provinces have developed their brand.

Two interesting articles in the Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/16/premiership-final-heineken-cup-trans-border
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/sep/16/heineken-cup-premiership-rfu

Just to be pedantic but London's population is 8million and has never been 12 million

Sin é wrote:

alcoombe wrote:

Sin é wrote:Sarries v Toulouse H Cup tickets available for a £5 with Groupon  

I tell you, these businessman with their silly ideas!  Aiming to make more money by selling a high number cheaply, when has that ever worked?!

I'd worry about these businessmen if they can't sell out a stadium in a city of 12m people without serious discounting, to watch two of the supposedly leading clubs in Europe.

I've just seen the tv viewing figures for

BT Sport's rugby double-header London Irish v Saracens and London Wasps v Harlequins attracted 77,000 and 103,000 viewers on average.

Meanwhile in the Rabo last October 46K were at the Leinster v Munster game in the Aviva and 240,000 watched it on TG4.

Those businessmen should have a look at how the Irish provinces have developed their brand.

You do realise that the £5 tickets are the child prices in the cheapest part of the stadium, the rest of the prices range from £60 to £16.

https://www.eticketing.co.uk/saracens/details/event.aspx?itemref=1428


I wonder why less people watched a game on pay-TV compared to one on FTA?

nth wrote:

Sin é wrote:

alcoombe wrote:

Sin é wrote:Sarries v Toulouse H Cup tickets available for a £5 with Groupon  

I tell you, these businessman with their silly ideas!  Aiming to make more money by selling a high number cheaply, when has that ever worked?!

I'd worry about these businessmen if they can't sell out a stadium in a city of 12m people without serious discounting, to watch two of the supposedly leading clubs in Europe.

I've just seen the tv viewing figures for

BT Sport's rugby double-header London Irish v Saracens and London Wasps v Harlequins attracted 77,000 and 103,000 viewers on average.

Meanwhile in the Rabo last October 46K were at the Leinster v Munster game in the Aviva and 240,000 watched it on TG4.

Those businessmen should have a look at how the Irish provinces have developed their brand.

You do realise that the £5 tickets are the child prices in the cheapest part of the stadium, the rest of the prices range from £60 to £16.

https://www.eticketing.co.uk/saracens/details/event.aspx?itemref=1428


I wonder why less people watched a game on pay-TV compared to one on FTA?

There is no mention of those tickets being child prices. Those £5 tickets will buy you a seat in the 'lower bowl red & black seats'. Groupon is a special offer site.

If you look at the link you supplied you will see that you can buy additional tickets for Adults at £20 and U16 for £11.

BT have over a million subscribers so it may as well be FTA if comparing to the Irish market. That was on TG4 which is an Irish language channel and would be competing against the other main channels which had Xfactor etc.

Sin é wrote:

nth wrote:

Sin é wrote:

alcoombe wrote:

Sin é wrote:Sarries v Toulouse H Cup tickets available for a £5 with Groupon  

I tell you, these businessman with their silly ideas!  Aiming to make more money by selling a high number cheaply, when has that ever worked?!

I'd worry about these businessmen if they can't sell out a stadium in a city of 12m people without serious discounting, to watch two of the supposedly leading clubs in Europe.

I've just seen the tv viewing figures for

BT Sport's rugby double-header London Irish v Saracens and London Wasps v Harlequins attracted 77,000 and 103,000 viewers on average.

Meanwhile in the Rabo last October 46K were at the Leinster v Munster game in the Aviva and 240,000 watched it on TG4.

Those businessmen should have a look at how the Irish provinces have developed their brand.

You do realise that the £5 tickets are the child prices in the cheapest part of the stadium, the rest of the prices range from £60 to £16.

https://www.eticketing.co.uk/saracens/details/event.aspx?itemref=1428


I wonder why less people watched a game on pay-TV compared to one on FTA?

There is no mention of those tickets being child prices. Those £5 tickets will buy you a seat in the 'lower bowl red & black seats'. Groupon is a special offer site.

If you look at the link you supplied you will see that you can buy additional tickets for Adults at £20 and U16 for £11.

BT have over a million subscribers so it may as well be FTA if comparing to the Irish market. That was on TG4 which is an Irish language channel and would be competing against the other main channels which had Xfactor etc.

How is Irish Xfactor going?

Is Louie Walsh on that too?

Choose from the following options:
•  £5 for a child's ticket

•  £13 for an adult's ticket (21% off)

It's just below the bit you've taken the screenshot from.
 
http://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/events/saracens/26672368
 
I don't really think that 21% off for adults is that outrageous a reduction.  Personally I think it says something that Saracens can aspire to sell a significant proportion of the seats in a 90,000 seat stadium despite having one of the lowest regular support bases of any premiership side.
 
Similarly if you are going to highlight the Munster/Leinster match figures we could just as easily point out that Quins have sold out the 82k seats at Twickenham for a regular league game before, i.e. against London Irish last year.  In neither case does that tell the whole story though as they are the exception not the norm.  
 
Granted it's a couple of years out of date and you always need to treat wikipedia with a pinch of salt...  however this would suggest that when you look at the leagues as a whole (and limit the effect of matches with unusually high/low attendances and occasional gimmicks) average gates for the premiership are over 50% higher than those for the Rabo.

Sin é wrote:

nth wrote:

Sin é wrote:

alcoombe wrote:

Sin é wrote:Sarries v Toulouse H Cup tickets available for a £5 with Groupon  

I tell you, these businessman with their silly ideas!  Aiming to make more money by selling a high number cheaply, when has that ever worked?!

I'd worry about these businessmen if they can't sell out a stadium in a city of 12m people without serious discounting, to watch two of the supposedly leading clubs in Europe.

I've just seen the tv viewing figures for

BT Sport's rugby double-header London Irish v Saracens and London Wasps v Harlequins attracted 77,000 and 103,000 viewers on average.

Meanwhile in the Rabo last October 46K were at the Leinster v Munster game in the Aviva and 240,000 watched it on TG4.

Those businessmen should have a look at how the Irish provinces have developed their brand.

You do realise that the £5 tickets are the child prices in the cheapest part of the stadium, the rest of the prices range from £60 to £16.

https://www.eticketing.co.uk/saracens/details/event.aspx?itemref=1428


I wonder why less people watched a game on pay-TV compared to one on FTA?

There is no mention of those tickets being child prices. Those £5 tickets will buy you a seat in the 'lower bowl red & black seats'. Groupon is a special offer site.

If you look at the link you supplied you will see that you can buy additional tickets for Adults at £20 and U16 for £11.

BT have over a million subscribers so it may as well be FTA if comparing to the Irish market. That was on TG4 which is an Irish language channel and would be competing against the other main channels which had Xfactor etc.

The clue is in the "from £5".  I suggest you take another look at the bottom of the groupon page that you took that screenshot from, it very clearly states that £5 is for a child's ticket.  You should be careful with these sort of special offer sites that prey on the vulnerable.

http://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/events/saracens/26672368


Yes, the "additional tickets" are additional to when season ticket holders claim theirs so that they get a discount when taking along family and friends.

All of these are limited options and the bulk of the purchasing options are for £16 plus, up to £60, like I said.  Go to the official ticket site and take a look if you're still confused on the issue.

http://www.ticketmaster.co.uk/event/37004ADB905DA2C5?camefrom=CFC_UK_BUYAT_102463


A quick look at Leinster's HC fixture against the Top14 champions show they are similarily priced, 10-60 Euros.

http://www.ticketmaster.ie/event/18004B13E2156592?did=elaserp&brand=ie_leinster&camefrom=CFC_IE_CLI_LEINSTER_RUGBY


One million subscribers as a potential audience, compared to a 6 million potential audience for TG4, there's no disparity.  There clearly wasn't anything on any other channel in the UK at the same time either, and it's not like people are usually out and about on a Saturday early afternoon, so it would have been a completely captive audience.

Munster never discount tickets.  They certainly wouldn't sell tickets for as low as €7 for instance.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/10106.php#.Ujeom3_PXWV

Munster Rugby are currently offering a 3 Match Pack which includes tickets for the last three remaining pool games in Thomond Park from 50 euro per person. This pack includes Cardiff, Leinster (Not on Public Sale) and Ulster home fixtures.
Fixtures can be viewed online by clicking here

This season's package offers fantastic value with a 15% discount on individual match prices.

Category A €100

Category B €75

Terrace €50

Junior Terrace €18

Terrace Family Pack (North/South) €100

Category B Family Pack 1 Adult + 1 Child €100

Category B Family Pack 2 Adult + 2 Children €200

3 Match Packs can be purchased online here

Individual Matches

With the reduction in ticket prices and the introduction of a family pack for just €40 there are now some great value ticket options available to watch Munster play. Full details of ticket prices available are as follows:

Ticket Prices

Category A Stand - €40

Category B Stand - €30

Adult & Child Stand - €40 (Cat B Seating for one Adult & and one Child Under 16)

Adult Terrace - €20

Junior Terrace - €7 (Under 16)

Family Pack Terrace - €40 (Two Adult Terrace & Two Junior Terrace)

Has this site really lowered itself to the degree where clubs are being criticised for discounting a selection of their tickets at large events, making those games more accessible?  Isn't this the exact same thing that World Cup or Olympic organisers have been criticised for not doing enough of?

Saracens may not be my favourite team, but given that they donate a share of their Wembley ticket sales to charity, I hope they break their own world record for the attendance of a club rugby match.

From the Guardian last night,

Proposals to move the Premiership final from the end of the season and to play European club rugby in a single block from March to June are among the ideas being considered by the leading English club owners as they prepare to thrash out the detail of a new tournament to replace the existing union-run Heineken Cup.

They are also keen to re-emphasise that Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian sides are all welcome to join the new Anglo-French-driven competition, heading off complaints from the Celtic unions that the loss of Heineken Cup rugby would be a calamitous blow to the sport in their countries. The Premiership club backers and chairmen, who are due to meet on Wednesday, are understood to be happy for all the six nations to be represented.

What may change at some stage is the structure of the season, previously hard to amend when European Rugby Cup Ltd controlled the Heineken Cup schedule.

Under a new regime there might be scope for the Premiership to be played in its entirety between September and early February. That, in turn, would leave the way clear for a "new" Heineken Cup to be staged between March and June, possibly even involving provincial sides from South Africa from 2015-16 onwards.

"Potentially the Premiership final could be before the Six Nations," a Premiership insider told the Guardian. "Then, if you ran a new Heineken Cup with the South Africans involved between March and June, that would be a pretty good competition for four months. You'll hear people not just talking about a new European Cup but a new trans-border competition."

The clubs, emboldened by the extra cash available from their £152m television rights deal with BT Sport and having given notice of their intention to withdraw from the existing ERC-run Heineken Cup at the end of the season, are adamant their plans will not be stymied by national unions or the International Rugby Board.

A senior English club figure said: "There are still some people who will say: 'You can't have a cross-border competition without the permission of the French Federation, the RFU and the IRB.' Those people are living in the past.

"What has changed the whole landscape is the BT Sport deal because suddenly the clubs have got their own broadcaster and are bringing their own money into the game. The French will also be selling their equivalent TV rights shortly. The unions can huff and puff as much as they like but the reality is that the unions are not going to stop a competition bringing in £30m to £40m to rugby."

There is also a widespread view that the Welsh, Scots and Irish cannot afford not to be part of any new competition, even if it is club-run.

"My guess is that next year there will be a European competition with all those sides involved and it could even be called the Heineken Cup," the source predicted. "The English and French clubs will play together next year and the Scots, Welsh, Irish and Italians are welcome to join us."

monwy wrote:Has this site really lowered itself to the degree where clubs are being criticised for discounting a selection of their tickets at large events, making those games more accessible?  Isn't this the exact same thing that World Cup or Olympic organisers have been criticised for not doing enough of?

Saracens may not be my favourite team, but given that they donate a share of their Wembley ticket sales to charity, I hope they break their own world record for the attendance of a club rugby match.

Its no way to try and build a sustainable support base. No wonder they have losses of over 5m last season and they want the Rabo nations to pick up the bill. I  see their latest initiative to get bodies through the gate is to give Bath supporters their money back if the Orange One scores the first points.

gelodge wrote:Munster never discount tickets.  They certainly wouldn't sell tickets for as low as €7 for instance.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/10106.php#.Ujeom3_PXWV

Munster Rugby are currently offering a 3 Match Pack which includes tickets for the last three remaining pool games in Thomond Park from 50 euro per person. This pack includes Cardiff, Leinster (Not on Public Sale) and Ulster home fixtures.
Fixtures can be viewed online by clicking here

This season's package offers fantastic value with a 15% discount on individual match prices.

Category A €100

Category B €75

Terrace €50

Junior Terrace €18

Terrace Family Pack (North/South) €100

Category B Family Pack 1 Adult + 1 Child €100

Category B Family Pack 2 Adult + 2 Children €200

3 Match Packs can be purchased online here

Individual Matches

With the reduction in ticket prices and the introduction of a family pack for just €40 there are now some great value ticket options available to watch Munster play. Full details of ticket prices available are as follows:

Ticket Prices

Category A Stand - €40

Category B Stand - €30

Adult & Child Stand - €40 (Cat B Seating for one Adult & and one Child Under 16)

Adult Terrace - €20

Junior Terrace - €7 (Under 16)

Family Pack Terrace - €40 (Two Adult Terrace & Two Junior Terrace)

Munster (or any Irish club) have never given tickets away to adults at a £5 a go - probably because they would lose all their existing season ticket holders  

I can't believe this lad is still trying to pretend those Saracens tickets he highlighted weren't for children and not the same price as Munster have charged for a child when discounting.

You stick to your guns fella, keep digging.

Groupon wrote:

One Child's Ticket For Saracens v Toulouse, 18 October, 7.45pm Kick Off
Price £5.00
One Adult's Ticket For Saracens v Toulouse, 18 October, 7.45pm Kick Off
Price £13
21% Discount - Save £3.50
Price £13.00

I went in and looked instead of sneering from afar.
http://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/events/saracens/26672368 I had to sign up for a bloody newsletter though although if they get too much, I'll get unsuscribed 2 6.

This article just posted doesn't mention at all what the FFR have threatened to do or the legality of the franglo cup.The FFR have threatened to set up regional sides to compete in the h cup if the French clubs won't compete. The French will be alright financially with an expanded top 14. So if things get hairy and the French clubs face law suits over setting up an illegal competition or breaking contracts they may well go that route rather than the franglo comp. What I'm worried about now is that the English clubs will find themselves isolated, without a franglo cup or a h cup and they may not survive the loss of earnings. There has to be some other way to improve their lot.

What this original post showed me was that the English clubs don't have much choice but to do what they're doing. The majority of English clubs are desperate for money. Any renegotiation of the h cup therefore that involves the booting out of weaker rabbo teams won't be enough for them. In fact if the rabbo unions concede to having only four teams in the h cup and the players have to play blindfolded it wouldn't be enough. In order to survive they need more money. Now. I have at last developed some sympathy for the PRL stance after reading this.

This BT deal pretty much requires them to exit the h cup. If they don't then they'll have to stay with the sky deal, which means less money. Even if percentages are switched around so that they get a bit more per club if this amount is still less than the BT deal they won't want it. They may not have much choice if they're facing huge debts.

I still think that the RFU could do more to help their pro clubs. Having one more international per year and giving more funds to the pro teams like the Welsh do could be a start. Yes there are far more pro sides in England to be taken care of but this model obviously is not working. If pro rugby is to survive in England either the union has to do more, or do something radical, or the clubs will do it for themselves. Relying on the French may work out or may be a total disaster for them.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_8926407,00.html

The kingmakers are the RFU, FFR and the still silent IRB. There are a lot of barriers to this new tournament.

There are indeed, Notch. But Lux has an axe to grind.

Lux wrote:"There were meetings up to the beginning of June. Since then everyone has been waiting for someone else to make the first move to kick-start the negotiations," Lux told AFP.

"We received letters from the English and French leagues a few weeks ago that had a decidedly guerilla spirit to them.

"When I hear the English and French leagues denouncing Celtic intransigence, we could also reply that those two leagues don't want to change their positions.

"We need to find a compromise to advance."

Negotiations were blocked and subjected to Rabo obfuscation for a whole year yet now they talk of 'compromise' as if it's a new word in their lexicon.

The Rabo is now beginning to realise the threats were serious and are only now calling for UN peacekeeping forces to be called in to defend their turf. And I don't blame them.

But that lost year has been costly for them in terms of bargaining strength.

Intotouch wrote:....

What this original post showed me was that the English clubs don't have much choice but to do what they're doing. The majority of English clubs are desperate for money. Any renegotiation of the h cup therefore that involves the booting out of weaker rabbo teams won't be enough for them. In fact if the rabbo unions concede to having only four teams in the h cup and the players have to play blindfolded it wouldn't be enough. In order to survive they need more money. Now. I have at last developed some sympathy for the PRL stance after reading this.

..

From a practical point of view the most important thing for the clubs is to be playing high profile competitive games that generate money.

Getting results is nice but winning is less important than earning.

Someone has translated these on Munsterfans. I haven't seen them published elsewhere.

Dear Editor,

As Independent Chairman of the Director of the ERC, I am writing to correct a number of inaccuracies published in the Friday edition (September 13) of Midi Olympique. More information in the interview the President of the National Rugby League, Paul Goze and in an article entitled "H war" by Marc Duzan are all just wrong and I can not accept the state.

The future

While it appears that the English and French clubs lead a well-orchestrated suggesting that European tournaments are finished, their proposal for an Anglo-French competition is not possible because all the federations are opposed campaign. Over the past 18 seasons, the competition of European club rugby have continued to grow and generated a staggering 500 million euros for professional sports with the only distribution of central revenue. Tournaments played a crucial role in bringing the clubs on the international stage and help to raise the level in all participating countries. These tournaments are popular with players, coaches, broadcasters, and especially the fans. I think it is now time to stop the exchange of press releases and dramatic ultimatums, and start real negotiations to consolidate European rugby competitions.

Next stakeholder meeting of the ERC

As it is stated in the press release following the meeting of the Steering Committee of the ERC in Dublin September 11, 2013, the proposition that the ERC, as a signatory of the current agreement, organizes next stakeholder meeting was accepted without objection. I note that Mr. Goze said that the Top 14 clubs are still willing to participate in ERC tournaments if the result of the negotiation process is favorable. The ERC will therefore organize the next meeting and the appointment of a mediator will probably be acceptable to all parties and help this meeting.

Dear Editor,

As Independent Chairman of the Director of the ERC, I am writing to correct a number of inaccuracies published in the Friday edition (September 13) of Midi Olympique. More information in the interview the President of the National Rugby League, Paul Goze and in an article entitled "H war" by Marc Duzan are all just wrong and I can not accept the state.

The future

While it appears that the English and French clubs lead a well-orchestrated suggesting that European tournaments are finished, their proposal for an Anglo-French competition is not possible because all the federations are opposed campaign. Over the past 18 seasons, the competition of European club rugby have continued to grow and generated a staggering 500 million euros for professional sports with the only distribution of central revenue. Tournaments played a crucial role in bringing the clubs on the international stage and help to raise the level in all participating countries. These tournaments are popular with players, coaches, broadcasters, and especially the fans. I think it is now time to stop the exchange of press releases and dramatic ultimatums, and start real negotiations to consolidate European rugby competitions.

Next stakeholder meeting of the ERC

As it is stated in the press release following the meeting of the Steering Committee of the ERC in Dublin September 11, 2013, the proposition that the ERC, as a signatory of the current agreement, organizes next stakeholder meeting was accepted without objection. I note that Mr. Goze said that the Top 14 clubs are still willing to participate in ERC tournaments if the result of the negotiation process is favorable. The ERC will therefore organize the next meeting and the appointment of a mediator will probably be acceptable to all parties and help this meeting.
Income distribution and the ERC

Both articles contain a number of inaccuracies regarding the income and its distribution. Last season, the contribution of the ERC Federations and clubs was 44.3 million - a figure that has doubled since 2005/2006. 85% of the amount distributed is shared between six European countries. The remaining 15% is distributed to countries so meritocracy based on the results of their clubs in tournaments. Last season, the NRL has received 12.2 million euros, Premiership Rugby clubs 10.8 million euros, Ireland € 6.6 million, Wales 5 million, Scotland 5 million and Italy 4.6 million Euros. In other words, for the season 2012/2013, the French and English clubs have received 52% of the income distribution and the distribution seems related to the number of teams playing in the Heineken Cup (13 English and French on this 24 year ).

Income can they be distributed differently? Yes of course. During the final negotiations for the agreement being, participation and income distribution has changed with the agreement of all parties. This represented an increase for Italy. Participation and income distribution can be changed again but only with the agreement of all six countries and I can assure you that all the other countries are willing to discuss it.

Where the income come from?

The article by Mr. Duzan and comments of Mr. Goze contain ridiculous suggestions hinting that England and France are the only significant sources of income for the ERC. The success of our tournament was built on a fusion of cultures, styles and passion of supporters from the six countries.

Our television contracts include significant additional financial contributions from Sky Sports has added the Republic of Ireland to the original agreement covering the United Kingdom, and there are also major contracts with Sky Italia (Italy), TG4 ( Ireland), S4C (Wales) which must be added TV international agreements outside of Europe, which are now major contributors.

In terms of sponsorship, suggest that Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales are not important markets is once again ridiculous. These are important markets and especially our main sponsor Heineken. Just look at the number of spectators in the semi-finals and finals in the past six years to get an idea of ​​the commercial contribution of only Irish supporters. The European Cup is now recognized as the most competitive club tournament in the world, and anyone imagine an Anglo-French competition would also be commercially attractive is naive at best. "
Sports friendships

Jean-Pierre Lux

1. Premiership Heineken Cup holder
2. Premiership Challenge Cup holder
3. Premiership champion.
4. Premiership runner-up
Premiership semi-finalists (2 teams)
Anglo-Welsh Cup holder
Fifth-, sixth, and seventh-place teams, in that order, until the Premiership's Heineken Cup allocation is filled

Is this really a top six qualification?

"The success of our tournament was built on a fusion of cultures, styles and passion of supporters from the six countries."

Thats the crucial thing for me. One of my best days out in a competition thats had a lot of them was Ulster vs Edinburgh. The novelty of that fixture in a semi-final, the atmosphere, the passion from both sides and the rugby itself was brilliant without a Frenchman or an Englishman in sight.

We don't want to lose that.

Also, we don't want a future where the major clubs are undermining the Unions. The Unions should be the guardians of the game at every level.

Pot Hale wrote:1. Premiership Heineken Cup holder
2. Premiership Challenge Cup holder
3. Premiership champion.
4. Premiership runner-up
Premiership semi-finalists (2 teams)
Anglo-Welsh Cup holder
Fifth-, sixth, and seventh-place teams, in that order, until the Premiership's Heineken Cup allocation is filled

Is this really a top six qualification?

Can you translate this into a format that I can understand, PH? I neither understand your point nor (if there is one) your argument unless that is just a way of pointing out the Jeff's potentially moribund HEC selection criteria.

For me, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance coming out of the PRL camp. They're saying they want a competition by the clubs for the clubs and they don't want to deal with Unions, but they're also saying the door is open for Irish, Welsh etc.

As we don't have any professional clubs and our provincial sides are run directly by the IRFU these two positions seem to contradict each other  

I would say that the RFU are hoping the FFR and IRB will take down this club rebellion before they have to act- they don't have the stomach for a civil war with a RWC on the horizon, understandably.

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, they're doing the same thing many other people do, especially on here and in the media, and refer to domestic sides as clubs? Just maybe. rather than saying "Welcome all clubs, provinces, regions and whatever the hell the Scottish teams are labelled".

The point (the very obvious point) is that the English and French clubs want the competition to be governed by the participants. In the Irish case this will be the Provinces, who are IRFU, and therefore the IRFU will still control the Irish vote because they control the Irish participants. In the Welsh case the Regions will control the Welsh vote.

This whole thing kicked off because the FFR took the LNR votes to get Lux in. If that didn't happen I don't think notice would have been given by the French and the English were just following their lead.

An interesting post in the v2 Club Rugby section, Notch. The cognitive dissonance is seemingly an endemic psychological problem.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Groupon wrote:

   One Child's Ticket For Saracens v Toulouse, 18 October, 7.45pm Kick Off
   Price £5.00
   One Adult's Ticket For Saracens v Toulouse, 18 October, 7.45pm Kick Off
    Price £13
   21% Discount - Save £3.50
   Price £13.00

I went in and looked instead of sneering from afar.
http://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/events/saracens/26672368 I had to sign up for a bloody newsletter though although if they get too much, I'll get unsuscribed 2 6.

Discounting tickets to a Heineken Cup game against one of the aristocrats of Europe doesn't bode well for the new Franglo competition.
The Munster discount is against one of the less competitive teams in the Rabo (the Dragons) - where even a child's terrace ticket still costs more than a 5er.

Its also worth nothing that is more or less coinciding with the replay of the All Ireland Hurling Final in Croke Park, Dublin which is being contested between two Munster counties - Cork (where the match is being played) and Clare.

Your point being? I'm no supporter of Sarries for so many reasons, but you seem to be criticising them for no particular reason. They have mega-rich sugar daddies who seem to be prepared to buy their way to the top and try to fill a 90,000 stadium by discounting whilst Munster playing in Cork at Musgrave Park.

Munster site wrote:Musgrave Park is the Cork home of Munster Rugby and is also home to two of the All Ireland League Senior Club sides, Dolphin RFC and Sundays Well RFC. The west stand was demolished in 2011 and replaced with a temporary structure holding a seated capacity of 2900, increasing the stadium capacity from 8300 to 9251.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/club/musgrave.php

Chalk and cheese?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Your point being? I'm no supporter of Sarries for so many reasons, but you seem to be criticising them for no particular reason. They have mega-rich sugar daddies who seem to be prepared to buy their way to the top and try to fill a 90,000 stadium by discounting whilst Munster playing in Cork at Musgrave Park.

Munster site wrote:Musgrave Park is the Cork home of Munster Rugby and is also home to two of the All Ireland League Senior Club sides, Dolphin RFC and Sundays Well RFC. The west stand was demolished in 2011 and replaced with a temporary structure holding a seated capacity of 2900, increasing the stadium capacity from 8300 to 9251.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/club/musgrave.php

Chalk and cheese?

My point is that it smacks of desperation that Sarries has to resort to selling very, very cheap tickets to one of their biggest games of the season in a city of over 8m people. Even if the locals are not sarries supporters, surely they would want to see the cream of French rugby in European action? Thats like Man Utd reducing its ticket price to kids for a fiver against Barcelona/Real Madrid in the Champions League.

Cork is a much smaller place (100K population) and the match happens to coincide with an All Ireland Final Replay that has Cork in it. There will be at least 40K Cork people at that match in Dublin for starters (and another 40K from Clare) - all Munster people.

What are the ticket prices at Musgrave for the match, Sine?

The Munster/Ticketmaster link is just so sloooow.

Munster play Newport Gwent Dragons in Musgrave Park on Saturday 28th September at 6.45pm and tickets are available to buy online here or from the Munster Rugby ticket offices in Musgrave Park and Thomond Park. Kids go free with the Family Terrace Pack, with 2 adults and 2 kids for €40.

Ticket Prices: Terrace tickets €20, Junior Terrace €7, Adult Stand €35, Junior Stand €10. Additional offers exclusively for this game will be communicated to season ticket holders shortly.

Then Munster open their Thomond Park campaign with Leinster in round 5 of the RaboDirect PRO12 on Saturday October 5th at 6.45pm.

Tickets are on sale for this game now and can be bought online here, or by ringing 0818 719300. They can also be purchased from the ticket office in Musgrave Park and Thomond Park.
Ticket Prices: Terrace tickets €30, Cat A Stand €50 and Cat B Stand €40

Sin é wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Your point being? I'm no supporter of Sarries for so many reasons, but you seem to be criticising them for no particular reason. They have mega-rich sugar daddies who seem to be prepared to buy their way to the top and try to fill a 90,000 stadium by discounting whilst Munster playing in Cork at Musgrave Park.

Munster site wrote:Musgrave Park is the Cork home of Munster Rugby and is also home to two of the All Ireland League Senior Club sides, Dolphin RFC and Sundays Well RFC. The west stand was demolished in 2011 and replaced with a temporary structure holding a seated capacity of 2900, increasing the stadium capacity from 8300 to 9251.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/club/musgrave.php

Chalk and cheese?

My point is that it smacks of desperation that Sarries has to resort to selling very, very cheap tickets to one of their biggest games of the season in a city of over 8m people. Even if the locals are not sarries supporters, surely they would want to see the cream of French rugby in European action? Thats like Man Utd reducing its ticket price to kids for a fiver against Barcelona/Real Madrid in the Champions League.

Cork is a much smaller place (100K population) and the match happens to coincide with an All Ireland Final Replay that has Cork in it. There will be at least 40K Cork people at that match in Dublin for starters (and another 40K from Clare) - all Munster people.

No it's not. It's nothing like Man Utd reducing ticket price against Barcelona and you know it.

Desperation would be deeply discounting a standard home match. Using discounted tickets to fill Wembley or Twickenham (as Sarries and Quins have done) is a valid commercial strategy. Club rugby - the major finals aside - is not really big enough anywhere to fill a national stadium at full prices. Especially when there's a limited window in which to sell the tickets - remember that there's only a few weeks to sell tickets between the confirmation of the HEC QFs and SFs and the date of the game.

I don't know Sarries' economics, but for the Big Game Quins reckon that getting a 50k crowd at Twickenham (with lots of £10 tickets in that mix) earns as much as a normal home game. Every £10 over that is essentially profit. For the last 3 years they have filled Twickenham with that strategy, which has brought in useful extra income just from the game, and overall attendances are up enough to suggest that some of those fans have started coming to the Stoop as well.

I am pretty sure that Sarries have given away or discounted more Wembley tickets than Quins did, but they have been starting from a lower base. What matters to them is to get fans to the game and convert them into regulars.

Poorfour wrote:Desperation would be deeply discounting a standard home match. Using discounted tickets to fill Wembley or Twickenham (as Sarries and Quins have done) is a valid commercial strategy. Club rugby - the major finals aside - is not really big enough anywhere to fill a national stadium at full prices. Especially when there's a limited window in which to sell the tickets - remember that there's only a few weeks to sell tickets between the confirmation of the HEC QFs and SFs and the date of the game.

I don't know Sarries' economics, but for the Big Game Quins reckon that getting a 50k crowd at Twickenham (with lots of £10 tickets in that mix) earns as much as a normal home game. Every £10 over that is essentially profit. For the last 3 years they have filled Twickenham with that strategy, which has brought in useful extra income just from the game, and overall attendances are up enough to suggest that some of those fans have started coming to the Stoop as well.

I am pretty sure that Sarries have given away or discounted more Wembley tickets than Quins did, but they have been starting from a lower base. What matters to them is to get fans to the game and convert them into regulars.

Munster & Leinster have been doing it for years in the Avivia in the League. Usually get around 50K at full price in the Aviva when they play against each other. Similar situation when Leinster visit Thomond (26K). The population of the island of Ireland is less than the population of London!

I think its a bad strategy - it just cheapens the product. Munster built their season ticket sales on people being eligible to enter a draw for a ticket to a Heineken Cup game!

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I'm no supporter of Sarries for so many reasons, but you seem to be criticising them for no particular reason. They have mega-rich sugar daddies who seem to be prepared to buy their way to the top and try to fill a 90,000 stadium by discounting

And you lads want us to trust the future of European Rugby to these feckers?

Do you not see the problems with that?

Sin é wrote:Munster play Newport Gwent Dragons in Musgrave Park on Saturday 28th September at 6.45pm and tickets are available to buy online here or from the Munster Rugby ticket offices in Musgrave Park and Thomond Park. Kids go free with the Family Terrace Pack, with 2 adults and 2 kids for €40.  

Ticket Prices:  Terrace tickets €20, Junior Terrace €7, Adult Stand €35, Junior Stand €10.  Additional offers exclusively for this game will be communicated to season ticket holders shortly.

Then Munster open their Thomond Park campaign with Leinster in round 5 of the RaboDirect PRO12 on Saturday October 5th at 6.45pm.

Tickets are on sale for this game now and can be bought online here, or by ringing 0818 719300. They can also be purchased from the ticket office in Musgrave Park and Thomond Park.
Ticket Prices: Terrace tickets €30, Cat A Stand €50 and Cat B Stand €40

So there are £5 tickets available then. Quite rightly so.

Good for Munster  

Sin é wrote:
The. Best. Pack. Ever.

Who. Always. Get. Handed. Their Arses. By. The. Ospreys  

Shifty wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The. Best. Pack. Ever.

Who. Always. Get. Handed. Their Arses. By. The. Ospreys  

Its only recently that the Os have won a few games against Munster - when the Pack of Hayes, Horan, Axel, Wally, Leamy, Fla, Quinny have all retired now:

Played 27 times
Wins: Munster 13 Ospreys 13
Draws: M 1, Os 1
Tries: M 47, Os 42
Points scored: M 499, Os 497  

Looks like Munster are still on top, even without that pack  

Sin é wrote:Munster play Newport Gwent Dragons in Musgrave Park on Saturday 28th September at 6.45pm and tickets are available to buy online here or from the Munster Rugby ticket offices in Musgrave Park and Thomond Park. Kids go free with the Family Terrace Pack, with 2 adults and 2 kids for €40.  

Wouldn't be bring up a game in Cork on the same day as the All-Ireland Hurling Final replay... the attendance might not be all the Munster Branch would hope it could be! I'm sure they'll roll out a few more special offers for that game.

Sin é wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Your point being? I'm no supporter of Sarries for so many reasons, but you seem to be criticising them for no particular reason. They have mega-rich sugar daddies who seem to be prepared to buy their way to the top and try to fill a 90,000 stadium by discounting whilst Munster playing in Cork at Musgrave Park.

Munster site wrote:Musgrave Park is the Cork home of Munster Rugby and is also home to two of the All Ireland League Senior Club sides, Dolphin RFC and Sundays Well RFC. The west stand was demolished in 2011 and replaced with a temporary structure holding a seated capacity of 2900, increasing the stadium capacity from 8300 to 9251.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/club/musgrave.php

Chalk and cheese?

My point is that it smacks of desperation that Sarries has to resort to selling very, very cheap tickets to one of their biggest games of the season in a city of over 8m people. Even if the locals are not sarries supporters, surely they would want to see the cream of French rugby in European action? Thats like Man Utd reducing its ticket price to kids for a fiver against Barcelona/Real Madrid in the Champions League.

Cork is a much smaller place (100K population) and the match happens to coincide with an All Ireland Final Replay that has Cork in it. There will be at least 40K Cork people at that match in Dublin for starters (and another 40K from Clare) - all Munster people.

Wouldn't Munster playing Leinster (surely as much European royalty as Toulouse now) and Ulster at home be two of their biggest games of the season?

The link Gelodge posted earlier in the thread was a 3 match pack deal for home games against Leinster, Ulster and Cardiff where adults got a deal of €50 and kids €18, which works out at £13 and £5 a game, exactly the same as Saracens are charging. And that is Munster trying to fill a 26k stadium rather than 90k Wembley.

Sin é wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Desperation would be deeply discounting a standard home match. Using discounted tickets to fill Wembley or Twickenham (as Sarries and Quins have done) is a valid commercial strategy. Club rugby - the major finals aside - is not really big enough anywhere to fill a national stadium at full prices. Especially when there's a limited window in which to sell the tickets - remember that there's only a few weeks to sell tickets between the confirmation of the HEC QFs and SFs and the date of the game.

I don't know Sarries' economics, but for the Big Game Quins reckon that getting a 50k crowd at Twickenham (with lots of £10 tickets in that mix) earns as much as a normal home game. Every £10 over that is essentially profit. For the last 3 years they have filled Twickenham with that strategy, which has brought in useful extra income just from the game, and overall attendances are up enough to suggest that some of those fans have started coming to the Stoop as well.

I am pretty sure that Sarries have given away or discounted more Wembley tickets than Quins did, but they have been starting from a lower base. What matters to them is to get fans to the game and convert them into regulars.

Munster & Leinster have been doing it for years in the Avivia in the League. Usually get around 50K at full price in the Aviva when they play against each other. Similar situation when Leinster visit Thomond (26K). The population of the island of Ireland is less than the population of London!

I think its a bad strategy - it just cheapens the product. Munster built their season ticket sales on people being eligible to enter a draw for a ticket to a Heineken Cup game!

Different start point and audience, though, innit? Munster v Leinster is a traditional derby between two proud provinces of Ireland. One team is the focus of all the provincial interest, and the only real competition is GAA

English rugby was - until professionalism - far more about playing than watching. London clubs in particular had a great amateur playing base but far fewer supporters. A big factor is competition from roundball. Munster and Leinster do not have to compete with the likes of Arsenal, Spurs, West Ham, Chelsea, Fulham, Palace, QPR, Charlton Athletic to name only those that a person with no interest in the game can name off the top of his head.

Ten years ago, Quins were lucky to draw a crowd of 5,000. Now they average just under 13,000 for home games (and that includes 10,000 for the much-maligned LV cup games) and are aiming to sell out the Stoop 5-6 times this year, plus Twickenham once (both the Big Game and Sarries at Wembley set world records for regular club attendance). As I said, I don't know Sarries finances, but the Big Game has been profitable for Quins every year.

Leinster were averaging about 5-6K when they were in Donnybrook (moved to RDS for 07-08 season).

Munster started attracting a decent following around 2000.

SIN E Rocks.  

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:Munster play Newport Gwent Dragons in Musgrave Park on Saturday 28th September at 6.45pm and tickets are available to buy online here or from the Munster Rugby ticket offices in Musgrave Park and Thomond Park. Kids go free with the Family Terrace Pack, with 2 adults and 2 kids for €40.  

Wouldn't be bring up a game in Cork on the same day as the All-Ireland Hurling Final replay... the attendance might not be all the Munster Branch would hope it could be! I'm sure they'll roll out a few more special offers for that game.

Free turnips and a hang-sangwich. Usual double-offer.

They always go for it too. Its like drugs to em.

Without wishing to wade into the quarry of victimhood, self-aggrandizement and vegetable comparing that this thread had become (apart from you, Gibson old pal), but Glasgow had a total sell-out two weeks ago against Cardiff, with the vast majority of the fans being locals. This all despite a second-string side being named, and Scotland playing an international fannyball match at Hampden on the same night.

Anyone who knows the average Gladwegian's disdain (at best - total ignorance is more common) for the oval game will appreciate the achievement. That we're on the way to another capacity crowd on Friday against Leinster is little short of astonishing.

Sin é wrote:

Big wrote:So to paraphrase - the English game is losing money and is unsustainable so they should be forced to continue in what is for them the least cost effective tournament.  Right.  

You sure ain't going to fill twickers with Stade Francais supporters, unlike you do with any of the Irish  clubs when you meet in competition.

Pretty much every French club move their games to a bigger stadium to accommodate the travelling Irish fans. Leicester had a bit of a windfall by getting Leinster in a QF who brought the game to the 50K Aviva - and unlike Sarries & Co., they were not giving the tickets away to school kids. Munster said that getting a home semi-final in Thomond Park was worth 800K a few years ago.

PRL/LNR are entitled to say run things to be run differently or we're off, and the Rabo unions are entitled to say no thanks.  They've given due notice and done it all by the book.  However, PRL/LNR can't demand that the Rabo teams compete in a new tournament, and likewise the Rabo teams can't demand that PRL/LNR stay in the current one.  It's been fun, thanks, but lets move on.  And lets not kid ourselves into thinking it's the end of rugby.  

The PRL/LNR need to stop running an unsustainable game and live within their means.

http://www.wasps.co.uk/MatchReport.ink?matchid=13123&section=Squad&type=t

Check the attendance. I guess the bandwagon hadn't got rolling back then. 3/4 of the crowd were Wasps. I 've been to games v Munster too, where the majority are GAA fans and need the laws explaining to them.