Can anyone help me with Vettel?

First topic message reminder :

John just wrote a perfectly accurate post on the "Singapore" thread and it prompted me to reply, but rather than derail a thread I thought it better to separate. He wrote:

Who cares, reality is Vettel will ease to this years title. You can say Newey this, Newey that but the record books will just say a 4 time world champion. The competition haven't been good enough......again. Another Vettel podium this weekend & we can pretty much close the book on this season. I'm already just looking forward to next year, think the regulations will inevitably mix it up & probably the only way of halting Newey/Vettel is an inferior & uncompetitive Renault engine.

He's right. Everyone knows that the RB is an incredible car, but when that uncontentious observation becomes a stick with which to beat what I believe to be incredible driver it gets silly. You'd think the greats won titles in poor cars, or that they didn't chase the best car from team to team.

Personally I'm still a bit oblivious about why people don't like or rate Vettel. I find patriotism irrational, so I don't have that problem, and he seems a nice lad with a funny sense of humour. He seems to have provided great evidence of what he adds to the car; he attacks well yet makes very few serious errors since his stock car approach to the 2010 season (a bit of a campaign began to make out he cracks under pressure, but it's based on the thinnest of evidence when everyone makes an error or two. He seems to make fewer every year, even under a lot of heat in 2012).

I like his attitude to competition; his comments after Webber disobeyed orders at Silverstone in 2011  to back off him were unique. He said he didn't mind, he welcomed competition and understood Mark wanted to race, and he liked that too. Y'know, he was how old at the time? That's pretty grown up stuff from what was still in these terms a kid.

He won legitimate spurs in a poor car early on, something Hamilton didn't (but doesn't diminish his status in my eyes). Still, it's a good counter to the idea he can only pilot a superior car.

Is it really the finger? Seriously? Like no great sportsmen do this?


Anyone help?

Agreed.

I think I recall Lewis Hamilton saying something similar in 2009 when he found himself stuck with a below-par McLaren. He said he'd found he needed to change his driving style, the set-up of the car etc. to deal with the different race situations he was finding himself in and the different strategies he had to use as a consequence of being lower down the grid.

Would definitely be interesting to see if Vettel could adapt, should he find himself in the same situation.

John wrote:Not denying Vettel's abilty from light to flag in a dominant car, just have to wait & judge. I mean he's never won a race from below third on the grid, says everything. People making this ATG argument, including Horner post-race, always usually look pretty stupid when the car is not dominant the following season & their so-called 'genius' begins to struggle. That could happen next year with these rule changes. I actually can't wait to see Vettel mid-pack, enduring 'actual' tyre issues & dirty air & not just the rubbish that Roque makes up, in an attempt to stop Vettel breaking lap records, that he can usually do with ease in that dominant car. Could be a shock to the system, transitioning from leader to actual racing. It's a complete different style of drive & skills required. Interesting to see how he adapts, if, the RB is not the best car next year. I will be the first to praise Vettel, if he shines in that environment under those pressures.

Seriously though John, how will we know? If he wins won't it just be decided that the car is still the best? Can you say what would have to happen for it to be judged that the car is ordinary but Vettel is making the difference to turn in the wins? A duff partner?..... but haven't we been watching that for three years (or have we, I really lose track)?

Lewis Hamilton reckons F1 fans will lose interest due to Sebastian Vettel's dominance. Yeah Seb - be more crap like Lewis, you selfish git.

Olly, completely agree. Pointless in him saying that but the media ask the questions & after four years of near domination, as a driver witnessing it, your bound to say something you shouldn't. Yeah, it's boring as a viewer but a driver should just focus on the job. Lewis is probably the only one who would actually tell the truth & be ballsy enough to say something, that in reality, is essentially the truth. We want to see characters in the sport & show their feelings but again he will just be slated for it. It's a no win situation for Lewis.

Vettel is in another league compared to Webber but what does that tell us? Webber has had bad luck compared to Vettel (mechanically) with two retirements this year yet still he lies in 5th in the title race and closer to Alonso in 2nd than Alonso is to Vettel so Webber has shown as well how fast the Red Bull is and with more luck he'd be within touching distance of second place. That confirms to me how much quicker the Red Bull is compared to the rest. I am not denying we are watching Vettel perhaps move to all-time great status but question marks remain. The vast majority of F1 fans want competitive races and want to see how Vettel reacts under pressure which he hasn't been for a couple of years. In any sport you always want to see the very best being tested and that just isn't happening in F1 - hence the tedium people feel at the moment.

Vettel will be doubted until he's in a sufficiently inferior car at which point those who don't like him will say he's exposed as rubbish.

In the end all this stuff is justification of preference.

Vettel hasn't proven anything to me until he wins the title in a Caterham.

John wrote:Olly, completely agree. Pointless in him saying that but the media ask the questions & after four years of near domination, as a driver witnessing it, your bound to say something you shouldn't. Yeah, it's boring as a viewer but a driver should just focus on the job. Lewis is probably the only one who would actually tell the truth & be ballsy enough to say something, that in reality, is essentially the truth. We want to see characters in the sport & show their feelings but again he will just be slated for it. It's a no win situation for Lewis.

One of the reasons I like Lewis. He's learned to be a bit more careful about what he says (and Tweets) and toe the corporate line a bit more, but is usually as open and honest as he can be - and occasionally will just say what he thinks.

From a fan's perspective I think he's spot on, but that comment probably won't do him any favours with his peers and colleagues.

I suppose it would be more correct to say that a few teams simply need to find a way to step up to Red Bull's level, so their drivers can give Vettel a real run for his money.

Don't think Mercedes, Lotus or Ferrari are that far away, in various respects...they just need to address their various weaknesses to create better all-round packages.

GSC wrote:Vettel hasn't proven anything to me until he wins the title in a Caterham.

Bit harsh!

I'd settle for seeing him still deliver the results when faced with some real competition, instead of just being able to drive off into the distance most races.

The Mercedes was faster (but harsher on its rears) for the first part of the season, the Ferrari and Lotus had better pace and tyre wear in hot climates. Last year the McLaren was faster if unreliable most the season, the Ferrari was on a par in races.

Vettels only really had a dominant car in 2011.

That's why he's the four time champion. When a rival team has had an advantage, there's always been something that's hurt them. McLaren in 2012 had horrifying pitstops, strategy decisions & unreliability. This season Mercedes were fastest in qualifying but horrifying in the race & suffered with embarrassingly bad tyre wear. They weren't really a force come Sunday's until Monaco's tight characteristics suited them. Lotus & Ferrari only were competitive in hotter climates but suffered with woeful, dire qualifying pace, which with these tyres meant chewing them up, in an attempt to come through the field to hunt down Vettel. Red Bull is the complete package over the recent years, now they themselves have got over their own reliability issues. They dont have a chink in the armour, totally professional, efficient & ruthless in their displays. Over one lap, exceptional with Vettel & on Sunday's are even better. If anything, Sunday is a stroll, Vettel driving at 75% of the car's ability. That's why they are four times champions & could even do more to stretch their advantage.

Had to laugh at Vettel saying about the 3-6 second gap at Korea was not dominant. Basically the safety car's negated the advantage & the only reason why his wins arent 30 seconds like Schumacher's is because of the limiting factor of the tyres. We never get to see the real, actual full throttle power & speed of the RB on race days because Vettel is strolling, controlling & managing the tyre wear, whereas Schumacher had no factors holding him back.

GSC wrote:The Mercedes was faster (but harsher on its rears) for the first part of the season, the Ferrari and Lotus had better pace and tyre wear in hot climates. Last year the McLaren was faster if unreliable most the season, the Ferrari was on a par in races.

Vettels only really had a dominant car in 2011.

Disagree with most of those points.

Mercedes have the raw speed but its useless if you destroy the tyres in the process - so no real advantage there.

The McLaren was off the pace for most of last season. They only became dominant over the last 6 races or so, after a woeful start and a furious development process.

True, the Ferraris and Lotuses seemed to unlock extra performance at the hotter venues, but those account for around a quarter of the season.

As john said, the Red Bull has been the best all-round package for the last 4 seasons and ridiculously dominant in 2011.

Would also add that the second half of this season has been more or less 2011 all over again.

Just watched a feature on Sky discussing why Vettel has so many critics.

Basically, everyone who knows him thinks he's great, he's incredibly private, and people are advising he follows Alonso & Hamilton by going on twitter all the time because that "allows people to understand him". They reported that at that movement Hamilton was tweeting that he was listening to "Thriller". Fascinating.

Why on Earth would you waste your time putting banal personal information in public? Of course, even more crazy to put important personal information in public! And as for anyone who watches for this stuff, they must be fools and who needs the consent of fools?

I see the anti-Vettel hystericals are at it again moaning Webber was shafted by a disadvantaged strategy.

Small facts like 1. Webber wears his tyres badly, and 2. Had he passed Grosjean quickly (as Vettel did) he'd have won are escaping them.

Poor things.

bogbrush wrote:I see the anti-Vettel hystericals are at it again moaning Webber was shafted by a disadvantaged strategy.

Small facts like 1. Webber wears his tyres badly, and 2. Had he passed Grosjean quickly (as Vettel did) he'd have won are escaping them.

Poor things.

Na not me. As you say Webber chews up his tyres much quicker - end of story. Next....

The only person I can see talking about 'anti-Vettel hystericals' is yourself bb. Webber felt he could have done a 2 stop (I have my doubts) but the team switched him to a 3 which he didn't agree with. There's nothing else in it.

bogbrush wrote:I see the anti-Vettel hystericals are at it again moaning Webber was shafted by a disadvantaged strategy.

Small facts like 1. Webber wears his tyres badly, and 2. Had he passed Grosjean quickly (as Vettel did) he'd have won are escaping them.

Poor things.

You're overlooking the little matter of Webber checking with the team, after his first stop, to see if he was still on a 2-stop strategy and being told yes...only to be told later that he was switching to a 3-stop.

Also, don't think its quite so clear-cut that he'd have won if he'd passed Grosjean quickly. I have a feeling Vettel would have made his car VERY wide and even gone as far as to force Webber off the track if he'd threatened to overtake.

Of course, thats just cynical old me talking.

Yeah, it's a disgrace isn't it? A team alleged to give the advantage to a guy on the verge of the title over a guy leaving them who can't. What is F1 coming to?

And quite right, Vettel forced him off the track. In your mind.

And liverbnz, I was referring to the numpties on the BBC.

bogbrush wrote:Yeah, it's a disgrace isn't it? A team alleged to give the advantage to a guy on the verge of the title over a guy leaving them who can't. What is F1 coming to?

And quite right, Vettel forced him off the track. In your mind.

And liverbnz, I was referring to the numpties on the BBC.

Well you know what they say? Where there's smoke there is fire?

The fuel for that fire being that Webber says the understanding up to after his first pit stop and beyond was that he was on a two stop strategy and later the team changed it to a three stop strategy. True Vettel is chasing the title but come on now Seb already has it won. I believe (quite possibly) he could have DNF's right through until the end of the season and he'd still win the title.

Even if Vettel sat out the remaining races, Alonso in an uncompetitive car, to that of Lotus, Mercedes & Webber, could probably win maybe one race at a push. I doubt Alonso will even bag 60 points in the remaining four races. The only excitement left is the Constructors battle for second & the battle for second in the Championship.

I`m going for Kimi to finish second & Mercedes to finish second respectively.

I'll go for
WCC - Merc - just.
WDC - Alonso - feel he has enough points in the bag and will still finish podium-ish for remaining races with neither of his rivals getting the full 25 points.
(and will take Hami 3rd, Kimi 4th)

bogbrush wrote:Yeah, it's a disgrace isn't it? A team alleged to give the advantage to a guy on the verge of the title over a guy leaving them who can't. What is F1 coming to?

And quite right, Vettel forced him off the track. In your mind.

And liverbnz, I was referring to the numpties on the BBC.

Well, it wouldn't have hurt Vettel's title bid to give Webber the win and it would have been a nice gesture on the part of the team, to acknowledge Mark's service over the years.

bogbrush wrote:Just watched a feature on Sky discussing why Vettel has so many critics.

Basically, everyone who knows him thinks he's great, he's incredibly private, and people are advising he follows Alonso & Hamilton by going on twitter all the time because that "allows people to understand him". They reported that at that movement Hamilton was tweeting that he was listening to "Thriller". Fascinating.

Why on Earth would you waste your time putting banal personal information in public? Of course, even more crazy to put important personal information in public! And as for anyone who watches for this stuff, they must be fools and who needs the consent of fools?

Just how many people do you think really know him? I'm guessing he's got a fairly close-knit circle of family and friends that doesn't extend very far to the rest of the F1 paddock and other people associated with the sport. His nearest and dearest are bound to think he's great - no real surprises there.

You said yourself, he's a very private individual...probably for a good reason. While I can understand it to an extent, given all the media attention sports stars are subjected to, I suspect if more people knew the "real" Sebastian Vettel, he might not be regarded as such a great guy by the wider public.

More parallels with Schumacher there...

dyrewolfe wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Yeah, it's a disgrace isn't it? A team alleged to give the advantage to a guy on the verge of the title over a guy leaving them who can't. What is F1 coming to?

And quite right, Vettel forced him off the track. In your mind.

And liverbnz, I was referring to the numpties on the BBC.

Well, it wouldn't have hurt Vettel's title bid to give Webber the win and it would have been a nice gesture on the part of the team, to acknowledge Mark's service over the years.

Yeah, because it's all a PR exercise.  

There's never been a team or driver in his position who'd do otherwise. The outrage is absurd.

dyrewolfe wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Just watched a feature on Sky discussing why Vettel has so many critics.

Basically, everyone who knows him thinks he's great, he's incredibly private, and people are advising he follows Alonso & Hamilton by going on twitter all the time because that "allows people to understand him". They reported that at that movement Hamilton was tweeting that he was listening to "Thriller". Fascinating.

Why on Earth would you waste your time putting banal personal information in public? Of course, even more crazy to put important personal information in public! And as for anyone who watches for this stuff, they must be fools and who needs the consent of fools?

Just how many people do you think really know him? I'm guessing he's got a fairly close-knit circle of family and friends that doesn't extend very far to the rest of the F1 paddock and other people associated with the sport. His nearest and dearest are bound to think he's great - no real surprises there.

You said yourself, he's a very private individual...probably for a good reason. While I can understand it to an extent, given all the media attention sports stars are subjected to, I suspect if more people knew the "real" Sebastian Vettel, he might not be regarded as such a great guy by the wider public.

More parallels with Schumacher there...

Because you know what the real guy is like? Better than the people who are close to him and like him?

Keep guessing who you think know him, and keep suspecting that you know what the real person is like better than his close associates. That makes loads of sense.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Yeah, it's a disgrace isn't it? A team alleged to give the advantage to a guy on the verge of the title over a guy leaving them who can't. What is F1 coming to?

And quite right, Vettel forced him off the track. In your mind.

And liverbnz, I was referring to the numpties on the BBC.

Well you know what they say? Where there's smoke there is fire?

The fuel for that fire being that Webber says the understanding up to after his first pit stop and beyond was that he was on a two stop strategy and later the team changed it to a three stop strategy. True Vettel is chasing the title but come on now Seb already has it won. I believe (quite possibly) he could have DNF's right through until the end of the season and he'd still win the title.

Apart from being the most stupid phrase going (because you most definitely can have loads of smoke in the absence of fire), it's really daft to rely on the bitterest man in the paddock who had just had his head handed to him again as an unbiased observer.

This sort of stuff really does show up the extent to which personal antipathy forms the basis of judgement on this guy.

Who is the most bitter man in the paddock? Webber? Doubtful. Have a look at Vettel's antics throughout early 2010 to see a petulant brat in action. Hungaroring especially.

Vettels matured a lot since 2010

To judge him on tha is a bit like me judging Hamilton solely on his 2011 season

Bogbrush, I like reading your points but your so biased towards Vettel its just getting ridiculous. Friends/family being biased, means nothing to me. We can build up our own views on his character & likeability through watching the sport, his interviews & his relationships within the sport. He is pretty much universally disliked in the paddock, along with his finger, has no comaraderrie with his fellow drivers whatsoever, bar Kimi & fails to engage or even bother entertaining the fans of the sport through different mediums, such as twitter for example. So what does he expect? Certainly not No.1 popularity status. It`s strange because for such a successful sportsman globally, he's managed to create an unappealing brand of himself, significantly smaller fanbases in comparison to Alonso or Hamilton & that is because of his failure to showcase any sort of personality or emotional connection with the fans, which is important. Why can't Hamilton tweet information to his fans, that connection is important & continues to build up relationships & allows the fan into his world & the glamour of F1 & its lifestyle. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever, maybe if Vettel followed in his example, his reputation & likeability might skyrocket & then finally the real Vettel could be revealed, people would understand him more & then the boos may reduce or stop. It would certainly help differentiate himself away from just being a clone of Schumacher.

GSC wrote:Vettels matured a lot since 2010

To judge him on tha is a bit like me judging Hamilton solely on his 2011 season

Ok then, early last season. Or any time he isn't miles in front of the rest. He hasn't matured. He's become a better driver aided by the best car for the most of the time.

Based on?

John, a few things about me / my attitude to Vettel;

1. I was relatively disinterested in him until I heard so much negativity directed towards him, mainly during 2011. I had wanted Webber to beat him in 2010, quite strongly.

2. That negativity, I've judged, is mainly based on irrational views (he's German), misguided (he cheats on poor honest Webber) and the dishonest (those who resent him really for beating their favourites). That motivates me to be contrary. I accept if someone dislikes "the finger" (but really!), or wants variety.

3. I'm further attracted to a personality that is self-sufficient and disinterested in the shallow things people do to curry favour. It's how I am myself and I think it's the sign of a secure personality. I'd be disappointed in him if he gave time seeking the approval of silly people.

Other than that, I think he's a brilliant driver who would be at the top of the sport in the same car as others. I consider only Hamilton to be his equal.

But all you've done BB is added to another opinion that goes to the extreme, albeit you're on the opposite end of the spectrum for most on here, which lends itself to pretty tedious debate going back and forth endlessly.

GSC, what do you mean 'based on?' Are you trying to say Vettel is a gracious loser? That would be pretty silly if you were.

Im wondering where Vettel has been particularly ungracious recently but regardless, the best winners are often bad losers.

bogbrush wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Yeah, it's a disgrace isn't it? A team alleged to give the advantage to a guy on the verge of the title over a guy leaving them who can't. What is F1 coming to?

And quite right, Vettel forced him off the track. In your mind.

And liverbnz, I was referring to the numpties on the BBC.

Well you know what they say? Where there's smoke there is fire?

The fuel for that fire being that Webber says the understanding up to after his first pit stop and beyond was that he was on a two stop strategy and later the team changed it to a three stop strategy. True Vettel is chasing the title but come on now Seb already has it won. I believe (quite possibly) he could have DNF's right through until the end of the season and he'd still win the title.

Apart from being the most stupid phrase going (because you most definitely can have loads of smoke in the absence of fire), it's really daft to rely on the bitterest man in the paddock who had just had his head handed to him again as an unbiased observer.

This sort of stuff really does show up the extent to which personal antipathy forms the basis of judgement on this guy.

So it's a daft phrase. So what? But you aren't just saying Webber is bitter are you? You are calling him a point blank liar. Webber says the plan was a two pit stop strategy until well into the race then it changed to a three stop strategy.

liverbnz wrote:But all you've done BB is added to another opinion that goes to the extreme, albeit you're on the opposite end of the spectrum for most on here, which lends itself to pretty tedious debate going back and forth endlessly.

GSC, what do you mean 'based on?' Are you trying to say Vettel is a gracious loser? That would be pretty silly if you were.

What's extreme about my opinion?

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Yeah, it's a disgrace isn't it? A team alleged to give the advantage to a guy on the verge of the title over a guy leaving them who can't. What is F1 coming to?

And quite right, Vettel forced him off the track. In your mind.

And liverbnz, I was referring to the numpties on the BBC.

Well you know what they say? Where there's smoke there is fire?

The fuel for that fire being that Webber says the understanding up to after his first pit stop and beyond was that he was on a two stop strategy and later the team changed it to a three stop strategy. True Vettel is chasing the title but come on now Seb already has it won. I believe (quite possibly) he could have DNF's right through until the end of the season and he'd still win the title.

Apart from being the most stupid phrase going (because you most definitely can have loads of smoke in the absence of fire), it's really daft to rely on the bitterest man in the paddock who had just had his head handed to him again as an unbiased observer.

This sort of stuff really does show up the extent to which personal antipathy forms the basis of judgement on this guy.

So it's a daft phrase. So what? But you aren't just saying Webber is bitter are you? You are calling him a point blank liar. Webber says the plan was a two pit stop strategy until well into the race then it changed to a three stop strategy.

No, I said he was bitter. That distorts his perception and puts him in an impossible position. I felt sorry for the guy, he was asked to accept that he lost because his opponent could pass Grosjean easily and he couldn't. After the last four seasons of ritual battering by a young lad, that's unreasonable.

And in any case, if a team made any decision other than to secure the win for the man leading the championship I'd say they were mad. So would anyone, except when it's Vettel. Then they get ridiculously sanctimonious and talk rubbish about unfairness and conspiracies.

Nice wriggling BB but Webber says he was initially on a two stop strategy and that was then switched to a three stop strategy. No distorted perceptions as he had to know what the strategy was. So if he isn't a liar then Red Bull changed the strategy mid-race.

liverbnz wrote:

GSC wrote:Vettels matured a lot since 2010

To judge him on tha is a bit like me judging Hamilton solely on his 2011 season

Ok then, early last season. Or any time he isn't miles in front of the rest. He hasn't matured. He's become a better driver aided by the best car for the most of the time.

Agree along those lines Liverbnz. I for one can't gauge if he's matured simply because he's never really fought at close quaters very often.  When he has been in the mix he's gotten pretty flustered - such as driving into the bollards under the safety car at Brazil last season which he just got away with. As for his dislikeability amongst drivers and fans, for me its mainly down to his dismissive attitude towards other drivers - karthikeyan is an idiot, Webber is 'too slow get him out of my way' and 'stupid' Hamilton had the audacity to unlap himself as it 'interferred' with HIS race. And when Alonso suggests that alot of his success is down to piloting an Adrian Newey rocketship (which it is) you could have tripped over his bottom lip.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Nice wriggling BB but Webber says he was initially on a two stop strategy and that was then switched to a three stop strategy. No distorted perceptions as he had to know what the strategy was. So if he isn't a liar then Red Bull changed the strategy mid-race.

I'm not wriggling, don't be silly about it.

I'm saying Mark Webber is in an impossible position; actually Vettel did him up again when Webber should have won (he was 6 secs behind on vastly superior tyres with 11 laps to go). Exactly what was so inferior about his strategy? It was the execution by Vettel that won him the race.

You'd see that if you were looking objectively.

And you are being objective? No I don't think so. Webber says he was on a two stop strategy and that was changed (to his apparent surprise) to a three stop strategy. That is why I am not going OTT criticising the conspiracy theorists as there is some evidence there. As you know I am not in that camp as I believe Webber chews up his tyres too much and is why it was changed to three stops. However, evidence is there to fuel conspiracy theories. That is my point here.

The funny thing is that ifAlonso was gifted a pass, or slip stream qualifying (ha!) over Massa everyone says obviously smart tactics. When it's Vettel they get sanctimonious,

It's just stupid really. That's why I love reading it so much.

bogbrush wrote:The funny thing is that ifAlonso was gifted a pass, or slip stream qualifying (ha!) over Massa everyone says obviously smart tactics. When it's Vettel they get sanctimonious,

It's just stupid really. That's why I love reading it so much.

I see what you are saying but don't you think there is an obvious reason for that other than anti-Vettel sentiment? Alonso being gifted a pass by Massa means diddly-squat as the Ferrari's are not walking away with the title. F1 fans want, ache, crave some excitement in the run-in to F1 seasons so you can expect them to be irked if they feel Red Bull are heaping further boredom onto the title race by changing strategies mid-race.

The anti-Vettel sentiment is based on annoyance amongst fans of other racers, exacerbated in 2013 by a misrepresentation of the team orders thing, largely stoked up by gross hypocrisy from Mark Webber. The man who defied orders in 2011, who repeated after the race that he wouldn't take then, then cried like a baby about Vettel doing the same. At least Vettel had said after Silverstone 2011 that he didn't mind.

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/171120/1/webber_not_fine_with_dont_race_order.html

Of course, I ignored the team as I want to try and get another place.

If you don't like "the finger" then fine, but most of this stuff is manufactured cant.

Surely Reb Bull are going to want to wrap up the drivers title as soon as possible? What if Vettel unfortunately broke an arm or something and couldn't drive the last few races? Its unlikely but Red Bull would then be regretting the points thrown away if Alonso then won by a few points.

If RB stitch Webber up once Vettel has already won the title then that will be reason for annoyance on racing grounds. As it stands its good sense to get Vettel to an uncatchable total as soon as possible.

Take it from me and other F1 fans - what we want is exciting racing wheel-to-wheel for race wins and nail-biting title finishes. Red Bull's vast superiority coupled with Vettel totally negates that. I tell you what? Why do you think Steve Davis was labelled 'boring' when he was a multiple world champion and one of the very best snooker players of all-time? Because he dominated and won with great ease and was very rarely threatened. Sound familiar?

CaledonianCraig wrote:Take it from me and other F1 fans - what we want is exciting racing wheel-to-wheel for race wins and nail-biting title finishes. Red Bull's vast superiority coupled with Vettel totally negates that. I tell you what? Why do you think Steve Davis was labelled 'boring' when he was a multiple world champion and one of the very best snooker players of all-time? Because he dominated and won with great ease and was very rarely threatened. Sound familiar?

Good example, because now people realise what prats they were for failing to recognise what a great player, and decent guy, he always was.

bogbrush wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Take it from me and other F1 fans - what we want is exciting racing wheel-to-wheel for race wins and nail-biting title finishes. Red Bull's vast superiority coupled with Vettel totally negates that. I tell you what? Why do you think Steve Davis was labelled 'boring' when he was a multiple world champion and one of the very best snooker players of all-time? Because he dominated and won with great ease and was very rarely threatened. Sound familiar?

Good example, because now people realise what prats they were for failing to recognise what a great player, and decent guy, he always was.

That just emphasises what people want. Do people refer to his 18-2 world title win or his nail-biting black ball final V Taylor. Point proven that people crave competitiveness in viewing sport and F1 just now isn't it.

Back to Davis and I'd say they warmed to him when they got to know the real him when he became a pundit on the BBC. I'd say that was more the case.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Take it from me and other F1 fans - what we want is exciting racing wheel-to-wheel for race wins and nail-biting title finishes. Red Bull's vast superiority coupled with Vettel totally negates that. I tell you what? Why do you think Steve Davis was labelled 'boring' when he was a multiple world champion and one of the very best snooker players of all-time? Because he dominated and won with great ease and was very rarely threatened. Sound familiar?

Good example, because now people realise what prats they were for failing to recognise what a great player, and decent guy, he always was.

That just emphasises what people want. Do people refer to his 18-2 world title win or his nail-biting black ball final V Taylor. Point proven that people crave competitiveness in viewing sport and F1 just now isn't it.

Back to Davis and I'd say they warmed to him when they got to know the real him when he became a pundit on the BBC. I'd say that was more the case.

Davis is on record as saying he wasn't very likeable in his prime competetive days. Too driven and focussed solely on being the best snooker player he could be (and a great example of someone who absolutely got the most out of his abilities). Only as he got older and less of a serious competitor did his character develop and he start playing up to the old Steve 'Interesting' Davis stereotype.

There's no reason a sportsman should try to make himself more likeable. Some are blessed with likeability and a connection with their audience (Mo Farah, Hamilton), others are incredibly fierce driven competitors (even before his doping revelations, most people knew Lance Armstrong was a cold and mean barsteward). The question is whether they are good at what they do. Vettel undoubtedly is very good at making a fast car go very quickly both in quali and the race - while the last couple of years have (for me) answered some of the questions about his 'racing' ability (not as instinctive as Hamilton, but good enough, especially with the current car regs where DRS makes it relatively easy for a fast car on good tyres to pass the car in front). Still a slight question as to whether he is a genuinely great driver or just a very good one who happened to be in the right place at the right time getting a seat in the best (i.e. Newey-designed) car on the grid over the last 4 seasons.

Be interesting to see what happens next year with Ricciardo coming in as his team mate. I think most of us have Webber down as an average to decent GP driver (based on what he did prior to being at RB), and we know Vettel is consistently quite a bit better. If he is similarly better than Ricciardo (who I think has shown quite a bit of promise over the last season and a half), I'll probably revise my opinoin of Vettel up a little bit. Would still be exciting to see him running with someone really good (Alonso, Hamilton) as a teammate - about as likley to happen as me winning the lottery this week though...