Japan, Pacific Islanders to join Super Rugby Reboot

Yes it's a re-boot. But panic not, I'm not referring to Morne Steyn's tactics for the upcoming Ellis park show down.

Super Rugby is set to expand to Super-18 with the addition of an NZ based Pacific Islanders team, embracing the long standing synergy between pacific and NZ rugby, and most importantly the skill and excitement boost from the islands will be matched pragmatically with the addition of a super rich Japanese franchise.  

This arrangement matches almost exactly my proposal made here just a few weeks ago. Coincidence? I think not. 606v2 is now clearly a source of ideas and inspiration for the games administrators and we should be collectively proud.

This arrangement also allows NZ players to seek the riches of Japanese rugby whilst still being eligible for All Blacks selection.

South Africa, leave this arrangement at your peril.

If they're trying to boost rugby in those countries, then shouldn't the Japanese and PI's play on their own home ground? Perhaps this proposal could just be the funding that Samoa, Fiji and Tonga need; perhaps the new stadium to be erected could be shared between these 3 for now? This is great for rugby, it's really spreading the game. Let's hope those Biltong munching, deer hunting thugs* don't get too greedy and threaten to leave again.

BTW, isn't an Argentinian team another one of the proposed entrants?

*I'm just joking Biltong, you probably live in the manliest country on Earth.

Ha, manliest country, rrrrrggghhh

It is a fantastic development. I can understand why they would initially play their home games in NZ to maximise money for the PI nations. Ticket prices to RC games ain't cheap. If you want the PI team to play at home, tickets may need to be subsidised to meet the market as the average income is significantly lower (and exchange rate issues). That's a loss of potential income.

If the funds they receive from this venture are 'well' managed, then build new stadia, because they sure as heck need to. One step at a time eh.

Auckland is the largest Polynesian city in the world, so why not base a PI team there? And let's face it, it's going to be full of guys born and bred in NZ no matter where it's based.

The thing I see happening is that the Australian/Japanese team is likely to attract a lot if PI players too, whereas previously they would've relocated to Europe. That'll keep the talent at home at prevent any more Vunipolas turning up in the England line up. 

Hopefully it will work out for the boys in the NH too because they'll have a chance to have their local talent nurtured through an albeit weakened club competition because the foreign ratio will drop back to a manageable level presumably. Especially now that the Heineken cup is dead.

It gives you a chance to bring through some Japanese officials as well. 2 birds for you...

It will be great, it will keep the SH (mainly Kiwi) has beens from coming up North and sponging of the richer clubs. A few quality stadiums which can be developed in the PI's would also enhance the PI's ability to allow those already in NZ to go play for their proper countries which will see a real reduction in the skill set of the AB team. If Japan play ball it will also enhance their clubs and stop the strange sight of PI's playing for their national team as well as a few has been kiwis:)

why not give Tonga and Samoa a team each?

We need two more teams to make 18?

And I agree they should play in front of their home crowds.

If you are going to have three conferences of 6 teams each, and it is closed conferences, there isn't that much travelling involved for Australian teams to travel to Tonga, and N to travel to Samoa or vice versa?

I would love to see them in super rugby.

If we do get greedy I hope we grow the Currie Cup and stay home.  

I think Fiji and Samoa could have a team each. Tonga and the other PI's could join forces for a third. These 3 countries deserve a good stadium each (multi sports facilities) and also top quality sides at international level. It must be shameful for NZ to boast about having the largest PI population but when was the last time they actually went to the PIs to play teams?? PI's deserve to be respected more than they are, this is step 1 I hope.

rainbow-warrior wrote: go play for their proper countries

Wow! That is just about the most racist thing I've read on here. How dare immigrants try to integrate and become part of the society they have moved to (or even been born in).

"You're not one of us! Go back to your own country"

You are a disgrace.

So who are the 3 teams being added...

A Japanese team, a PI team and who?

SA team?

goneagain wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote: go play for their proper countries

Wow! That is just about the most racist thing I've read on here. How dare immigrants try to integrate and become part of the society they have moved to  (or even been born in).

"You're not one of us! Go back to your own country"

You are a disgrace.

 

Nah, goneagain is right, you are a bit of an ...

Wait....wait for it

ebop wrote:Nah, goneagain is right, you are a bit of an

In the right country for it then aye:kiss:

I read an article in the Independent the other day where it stated NZ have never played Fiji and look unlikely to play there anytime soon. Given that the are shunning the islands themselves I can't see them sending their Super 15 franchises there either. Basing them in NZ just seems like a way of gaining some extra revenue and scouting the best of the up and coming PI talent. Then again maybe I'm just a cynic.

Glorious, the Vunipola's were brought up over here. Billy went to Harrow School for instance.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I read an article in the Independent the other day where it stated NZ have never played Fiji and look unlikely to play there anytime soon. Given that the are shunning the islands themselves I can't see them sending their Super 15 franchises there either. Basing them in NZ just seems like a way of gaining some extra revenue and scouting the best of the up and coming PI talent. Then again maybe I'm just a cynic.

Glorious, the Vunipola's were brought up over here. Billy went to Harrow School for instance.

 

Strange that there will be a northern hemisphere team in super 15 rugby.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I read an article in the Independent the other day where it stated NZ have never played Fiji and look unlikely to play there anytime soon. Given that the are shunning the islands themselves I can't see them sending their Super 15 franchises there either. Basing them in NZ just seems like a way of gaining some extra revenue and scouting the best of the up and coming PI talent. Then again maybe I'm just a cynic.

Glorious, the Vunipola's were brought up over here. Billy went to Harrow School for instance.

I think you mean that they've never played in Fiji as they've played against them 5 times.  When you consider that the average score is 73-10 it's understandable that they don't play them often.

Galted wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I read an article in the Independent the other day where it stated NZ have never played Fiji and look unlikely to play there anytime soon. Given that the are shunning the islands themselves I can't see them sending their Super 15 franchises there either. Basing them in NZ just seems like a way of gaining some extra revenue and scouting the best of the up and coming PI talent. Then again maybe I'm just a cynic.

Glorious, the Vunipola's were brought up over here. Billy went to Harrow School for instance.

I think you mean that they've never played in Fiji as they've played against them 5 times.  When you consider that the average score is 73-10 it's understandable that they don't play them often.

Maybe they should send a development team to play Fiji then? A bit like Ireland A and England Saxons used to play USA and canada.

It was in the press a month ago so its nothing new, nothing short of what people have been saying for a while. Auckland makes sense, large population of polynesians, nice infrastructure.

What does it change though??? Its revamped sure but it won't add any more sums to the coffers of Sanzar. There will be no more TV rights, no more sponsorship so more teams simply means a smaller revenue portion and higher costs... more games... and when more away games means 30-40 people travelling intercontinental its a big hike.

Japan makes sense if its financially viable. Extra revenue, TV audience, new sponsorship opportunities. etc.

The travelling is going to be a severe headache though. For NZ and AUS its fine bar the SA legs... for SA they will be travelling a lot more miles and it hurts in the long run. I would say its probably not in their overall interests but thats just my opinion... its already carrying deadbeat rugby in Aus and NZ from a financial perspective so any more strain will make the matters worse.

I repeat who is the 3rd team?

Japanese, PI...and WHO? South African team...or another Kiwi one?

Sorry Galted, I did mean in Fiji.

I hear rumours of some Bok teams entering in the new Franglo cup, that could be arranged outside of the normal season and would provide additional income. Does SA rugby need a big cash injection?

Southern Kings

SA will have 6. Stormers, Cheetahs, Lions, Bulls, Sharks and Kings.

the next 2 will be one from Japan and the PI team in Auckland by the sounds of it.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sorry Galted, I did mean in Fiji.

I hear rumours of some Bok teams entering in the new Franglo cup, that could be arranged outside of the normal season and would provide additional income. Does SA rugby need a big cash injection?

Thought as much, the temptation of inserting a stat was just too great to give you the benefit of the doubt though.

SA rugby funds SR. AUS and NZ take more then they put in. SA is the cash cow of the 3N unions at the moment.

They could make an awful lot more with a joining up with ENG & FRA/Europe and the conditions i.e. travel would significantly improve.

Financially it would make a lot of sense.

GunsGerms wrote:

Galted wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I read an article in the Independent the other day where it stated NZ have never played Fiji and look unlikely to play there anytime soon. Given that the are shunning the islands themselves I can't see them sending their Super 15 franchises there either. Basing them in NZ just seems like a way of gaining some extra revenue and scouting the best of the up and coming PI talent. Then again maybe I'm just a cynic.

Glorious, the Vunipola's were brought up over here. Billy went to Harrow School for instance.

I think you mean that they've never played in Fiji as they've played against them 5 times.  When you consider that the average score is 73-10 it's understandable that they don't play them often.

Maybe they should send a development team to play Fiji then? A bit like Ireland A and England Saxons used to play USA and canada.

They do, regularly. The NZ Maori and NZ A played in the pacific nations cup for years and years. Usually the score line was much the same.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Auckland is the largest Polynesian city in the world, so why not base a PI team there? And let's face it, it's going to be full of guys born and bred in NZ no matter where it's based.

The thing I see happening is that the Australian/Japanese team is likely to attract a lot if PI players too, whereas previously they would've relocated to Europe. That'll keep the talent at home at prevent any more Vunipolas turning up in the England line up. 

Hopefully it will work out for the boys in the NH too because they'll have a chance to have their local talent nurtured through an albeit weakened club competition because the foreign ratio will drop back to a manageable level presumably. Especially now that the Heineken cup is dead.

You literally baffle me, the Vunipola's parents moved to South Wales and both boys come through the Welsh system before moving to England, they are related to Toby Falatau, and all 3's first language is English, but can all speak welsh. Whereas the NZ internationals of PI decent have been pilfered by rugby academies on scholarships for years, with the promise of education...

This kind of Super 18 format is a worry, with teams following NZ's lead and looking to the PI's for talent (such as France), NZ have taken it 1 step further and offered a PI super franchise based in Auckland to essentially hand pick whatever they want, are the PI's going to be a harvest ground for the rich to exploit over the next 20 years? We all know they provide some of the physiologically superior players, but when will they get a chance to compete on an even playing field with their big cousins pillaging whatever they want?

NZ's actions over the last few decades have been poor sportsmanship in my eyes, but everyone turned a blind eye because of lack of funding in the PI's, lack of accountability, but now when other countries start to get in on the act I think it's gone too far. We need a rule change to allow Fiji Tonga and Samoa to be ring fenced, and every player of that decent at the age of 20 and below forced to compete for their heritaged nation. I think this will allow the PI teams to get to a strength and financial place where youngsters want to play for them, and can have that opportunity without having to look to NZ, or France!

I don't want us to join Europe.

If we leave Super rugby, then we must focus on growing the game in SA.

Build the Currie Cup to ten teams in the premier division.

Build another 6 teams to form part of the First division and keep it semi pro.

Nz has something like 30 teams, we should easily be able to build 20.

Super Rugby has become stale, I will enjoy it if we go back to playing our domestic rugby only in Sa against Sa team with SA players.

Provides more spots for players in SA, and provides more teams.

That will be my preferred choice.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Galted wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I read an article in the Independent the other day where it stated NZ have never played Fiji and look unlikely to play there anytime soon. Given that the are shunning the islands themselves I can't see them sending their Super 15 franchises there either. Basing them in NZ just seems like a way of gaining some extra revenue and scouting the best of the up and coming PI talent. Then again maybe I'm just a cynic.

Glorious, the Vunipola's were brought up over here. Billy went to Harrow School for instance.

I think you mean that they've never played in Fiji as they've played against them 5 times.  When you consider that the average score is 73-10 it's understandable that they don't play them often.

Maybe they should send a development team to play Fiji then? A bit like Ireland A and England Saxons used to play USA and canada.

They do, regularly. The NZ Maori and NZ A played in the pacific nations cup for years and years. Usually the score line was much the same.

but the teams they played weren't the first teams as the players faced were not the best in Europe etc but the best of the locals.... which made the matches useless. Great in theory, poor in practice.

GloriousEmpire wrote:They do, regularly. The NZ Maori and NZ A played in the pacific nations cup for years and years. Usually the score line was much the same.

Then thats fair enough if you ask me.

If there is a PI team based in Auckland, how is not just another Kiwi team made up predominately of players of PI heritage?

Biltong wrote:I don't want us to join Europe.

If we leave Super rugby, then we must focus on growing the game in SA.

Build the Currie Cup to ten teams in the premier division.

Build another 6 teams to form part of the First division and keep it semi pro.

Nz has something like 30 teams, we should easily be able to build 20.

Super Rugby has become stale, I will enjoy it if we go back to playing our domestic rugby only in Sa against Sa team with SA players.

Provides more spots for players in SA, and provides more teams.

That will be my preferred choice.

In terms of money I would prefer it, not just because I'm a fan of both European and SA rugby.

The reason I would prefer it as I see it as the best way of securing the long term future of SA rugby. Players go to and fro between Europe and SA... if we can somehow bridge the financial gap then we can keep the best players in SA. Also financially we want to provide the best and that would be playing teams in Europe, under European sponsorship and TV rights.
Finally, SA players take a heavy toll for travelling between Oceania and Africa. It may be similar distances to Europe but the time zones are near exact and that means no jetlag, no stress injuries etc.

Financially SA is hevaily linked to Europe... hardly at all to Oceania. The sponsorship would pour in to the competition.

I don't think playing french sides or english sides would dampen the intensity of the matches. Its superior to AUS rugby and perhaps bar 2 sides in NZ but the overall strength in my book is stronger, they have more sides of good quality... i.e. the 6th best side in England would beat the 6th best side in SA/NZ etc... at least IMO.

fa0019 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Galted wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I read an article in the Independent the other day where it stated NZ have never played Fiji and look unlikely to play there anytime soon. Given that the are shunning the islands themselves I can't see them sending their Super 15 franchises there either. Basing them in NZ just seems like a way of gaining some extra revenue and scouting the best of the up and coming PI talent. Then again maybe I'm just a cynic.

Glorious, the Vunipola's were brought up over here. Billy went to Harrow School for instance.

I think you mean that they've never played in Fiji as they've played against them 5 times.  When you consider that the average score is 73-10 it's understandable that they don't play them often.

Maybe they should send a development team to play Fiji then? A bit like Ireland A and England Saxons used to play USA and canada.

They do, regularly. The NZ Maori and NZ A played in the pacific nations cup for years and years. Usually the score line was much the same.

but the teams they played weren't the first teams as the players faced were not the best in Europe etc but the best of the locals.... which made the matches useless. Great in theory, poor in practice.

Exactly, the likes of Fji would be missing anywhere in the region of 10-20 players for pacific nations cup matches.

Bathman_in_London wrote:If there is a PI team based in Auckland, how is not just another Kiwi team made up predominately of players of PI heritage?

Simple, according to butterfingers anybody of Pacific Island descent should not be allowed to be New Zealanders.
Even if they are born in and NZ and have never been outside NZ.

His rugby apartheid seems so logical.

butterfingers wrote: NZ internationals of PI decent have been pilfered by rugby academies on scholarships for years, with the promise of education...

Go on then, name them.

goneagain wrote:

butterfingers wrote: NZ internationals of PI decent have been pilfered by rugby academies on scholarships for years, with the promise of education...

Go on then, name them.

Sivavatu is one.

'them' is plural.

goneagain

I'm no expert and I'm sure there are many others... but that fact that he is one is proof that it exists.
He lived in Fiji until he was 15, he was scouted by one of the top rugby schools in NZ and was offered a scholarship which he took and ended up playing for NZ. Thats undeniable.

I've seen programs on it on TV also for other kids/players. It happens... get over it.

So, only the one example then.

mate, I didn't make the accusation...I just said I know it happens due to me knowing the background of a particular player. I don't know the backgrounds of others.

It happens here in SA too... but inhouse as outside of SA there are very few countries to poach from... those from Namibia are SA born anyway (well those pre 1992 and count themselves as south african mostly, at least Afrikaans), those from Zim like Beast were recruited by the clubs rather then the schools... but the same applies.

But school recruiting is big in SA too.

I'm sorry you've been caught in the crossfire fa0019, but the truth is, it is not how idiots like rb & bf would have you believe.
The whole poaching and trawling the PIs for talent is a fantasy. The vast majority of ABs of PI decent were either born in NZ or emigrated there as small children. The whole 'they are not real NZers' mantra is trotted out by people who seem to think that to be a proper NZer you must either be Maori or of good British stock.
Offensive and racist in my view.

I did write a whole rant about the way immigrants are welcomed to Britain and the 7/7 bombers, but would probably get banned.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Galted wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I read an article in the Independent the other day where it stated NZ have never played Fiji and look unlikely to play there anytime soon. Given that the are shunning the islands themselves I can't see them sending their Super 15 franchises there either. Basing them in NZ just seems like a way of gaining some extra revenue and scouting the best of the up and coming PI talent. Then again maybe I'm just a cynic.

Glorious, the Vunipola's were brought up over here. Billy went to Harrow School for instance.

I think you mean that they've never played in Fiji as they've played against them 5 times.  When you consider that the average score is 73-10 it's understandable that they don't play them often.

Maybe they should send a development team to play Fiji then? A bit like Ireland A and England Saxons used to play USA and canada.

They do, regularly. 

---

The NZ Maori and NZ A played in the pacific nations cup for years and years. Usually the score line was much the same.

but the teams they played weren't the first teams as the players faced were not the best in Europe etc but the best of the locals.... which made the matches useless. Great in theory, poor in practice.

Exactly, the likes of Fji would be missing anywhere in the region of 10-20 players for pacific nations cup matches.

So the actual issue is that Fiji aren't willing or able to put together a side for the game - not that NZ are shutting them out. This is an issue for Fiji rugby to sort out. Then competition can resume.

goneagain wrote:I'm sorry you've been caught in the crossfire fa0019, but the truth is, it is not how idiots like rb & bf would have you believe.
The whole poaching and trawling the PIs for talent is a fantasy. The vast majority of ABs of PI decent were either born in NZ or emigrated there as small children. The whole 'they are not real NZers' mantra is trotted out by people who seem to think that to be a proper NZer you must either be Maori or of good British stock.
Offensive and racist in my view.

I did write a whole rant about the way immigrants are welcomed to Britain and the 7/7 bombers, but would probably get banned.

I agree with what you say in that. Poaching does go on but not by the union, by individual schools... but I think most rugby fans outside of NZ look like a guy like Jerome Kaino for instance and think oh he was born in Samoa, he was poached. In fact I recall he was brought up in NZ so it would be natural for him to play for NZ.

I take it that european clubs always make their PI players available.

goneagain wrote:I'm sorry you've been caught in the crossfire fa0019, but the truth is, it is not how idiots like rb & bf would have you believe.
The whole poaching and trawling the PIs for talent is a fantasy. The vast majority of ABs of PI decent were either born in NZ or emigrated there as small children. The whole 'they are not real NZers' mantra is trotted out by people who seem to think that to be a proper NZer you must either be Maori or of good British stock.
Offensive and racist in my view.

I did write a whole rant about the way immigrants are welcomed to Britain and the 7/7 bombers, but would probably get banned.

I had a Moroccan taxi driver last week who was bemoaning the number of polish people who had moved into his neighbourhood (in South London). "I don't mind the jamaican's" he said "they were here before us, but the polish are taking out jobs and our houses and our benefits. There's hardly any way honest Moroccans can come here anymore." He said, before we were stopped by an under cover police car that he nearly side swiped whilst pulling out through a red light waving his arms around in distracted anger.

goneagain wrote:I take it that european clubs always make their PI players available.

Its why a global season is needed. Clubs pay the salaries... understandable why they wouldn't want to pay for a player who has a chance of being injured.. and I doubt the PI nations can afford the insurance the big unions take out for their players on test duty.

If we have a global season all that will go away (well bar the insurance issue).

fa0019 wrote:
I agree with what you say in that. Poaching does go on but not by the union, by individual schools... but I think most rugby fans outside of NZ look like a guy like Jerome Kaino for instance and think oh he was born in Samoa, he was poached. In fact I recall he was brought up in NZ so it would be natural for him to play for NZ.

Indeed, something like 23% of the NZ population were born overseas. Also over 130,000 NZers identified themselves as 'Samoan' in the 2006 census. The population of Samoa is less than 190,000.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

goneagain wrote:I'm sorry you've been caught in the crossfire fa0019, but the truth is, it is not how idiots like rb & bf would have you believe.
The whole poaching and trawling the PIs for talent is a fantasy. The vast majority of ABs of PI decent were either born in NZ or emigrated there as small children. The whole 'they are not real NZers' mantra is trotted out by people who seem to think that to be a proper NZer you must either be Maori or of good British stock.
Offensive and racist in my view.

I did write a whole rant about the way immigrants are welcomed to Britain and the 7/7 bombers, but would probably get banned.

I had a Moroccan taxi driver last week who was bemoaning the number of polish people who had moved into his neighbourhood (in South London). "I don't mind the jamaican's" he said "they were here before us, but the polish are taking out jobs and our houses and our benefits. There's hardly any way honest Moroccans can come here anymore." He said, before we were stopped by an under cover police car that he nearly side swiped whilst pulling out through a red light waving his arms around in distracted anger.

Haha the nationalities of the cabbies may have changed, but their topic matter hasn't!

fa0019 wrote: but I think most rugby fans outside of NZ look like a guy like Jerome Kaino for instance and think oh he was born in Samoa, he was poached. In fact I recall he was brought up in NZ so it would be natural for him to play for NZ.

Exactly, just the type of posterboy for the casual, ignorant racist. (Not you fa!) Much more typical of the PI ABs than Sivivatu. Fabulous long game played by Papakura HS.

wiki wrote: Kaino was born in American Samoa and his family moved to Auckland in 1987. He played junior rugby league before switching to union in secondary school at Papakura High School.