the boys from from the valley

by eddyfightfan Sat May 14, 2011 2:16 am

this is a post to compare two great boxers. joe "the pride of wales" calzaghe and nathan cleverly. the similarities between them are blatent. both from south wales, both trained by there dads, both train in the valleys instead of in train campings, both undefeated, joe a world champion and nathan fighting brahmer for the title in the near future (both at around the same age)- as well as the fact that cleverly trained from the age of 9 in enzo's camp, and was a sparring partner for calzaghe when he was the world champ and cleverly was still virtually unknown.

my question is, do you think cleverly will make the same dent in boxing history as calzaghe did, or even suprass it? now personally i'm a huge calzaghe fan and enjoyed watching all his fights, especially the kessler, hopkins, jones jr, eubank, lacy and manfredo jr fights. i know people will have a million reasons as to why these names are not that impressive (opponents past there prime etc) but you can only beat whats in front of you and besides thats not the point of the post. imo cleverly has a few good wins, but only a few and is yet to be tested to his full potential. i think brahmer would be a good name on his cv and look forwards to seeing how his career pans out. i think he will win the brahmer fight and can't wait to see how he will develop.

by azania Sat May 14, 2011 1:12 pm

With Warren behind him, look for Clev to fight unknowns to pad his record out and when he is 35 leave Warren to take on the best when they are past it.

by Guest Sat May 14, 2011 2:54 pm

Their styles do seem to be awfully similar,but maybe that's the way it is these days, hands down etc. With McGuigan on this one-not a fan of that style as it seems to rest on the assumption that your reflexes are so tip-top that you can lean away from the punches..and all that.
I recall an early Ryan Rhodes trying to be like his mate Hamed.He got iced.Then he wised up. Anyhow, the afore-mentioned Mr. M ,has gone on record as saying that he may well emulate Joe's achievements.
What I like about him, he's tall,rangy limbs, his build will probably fill out quickly as he ages.But here's the rub.I suspect he may not be as defensively excellent as JC, there have been a few little warning bells regarding his hittability.Joe negated this by having such a good offence really.As per the "reflex" style, is he good enough to wing it without changing his style? My thoughts now are "No, he isn't". Can't see him wanting to move up in weight to fight the bigger boys somehow.
Another Welsh lad springs to mind as a warning shot-Enzo Maccarinelli.Had decent enough skillset but relied on the bombs.Didn't add much to the basic armoury.
Is Nathan intelligent enough ring-wise to evolve as Joe did to such great success?People can say what they like (and they do) but he was a clever so- n-so, always pulled a Plan B or Plan C out of the bag.
Got to say for me eddyfightfan, the jury's very much out on Clev.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sat May 14, 2011 3:30 pm

I think Cleverly will beat Braehmer but don't see him being good enough to beat the top guys at the weight. Hopkins, Cloud, Dawson, Pascal and Syllakh are all to good for Clev imo.

by **oxring** Sat May 14, 2011 6:11 pm

He'd beat Pavlik. So if he gets by Braehmer - that'll be his next fight I reckon. Syllakh looks the business - but he hasn't been tested yet. Cloud and Cleverly keep having a war of words - and while I'd love them to fight - I don't see it happening.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sat May 14, 2011 6:14 pm

oxring wrote:He'd beat Pavlik. So if he gets by Braehmer - that'll be his next fight I reckon. Syllakh looks the business - but he hasn't been tested yet. Cloud and Cleverly keep having a war of words - and while I'd love them to fight - I don't see it happening.

Syllakh beat Despaigne who looked the real deal and was also a top amateur. Pavlik might be a likely next fight puts his name in the American market as well.

by Imperial Ghosty Sat May 14, 2011 6:30 pm

Do we mean Pavlik or Pascal?

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sat May 14, 2011 6:34 pm

I meant Pavlik his last fight was at SMW but looks like he could make LHW easy and it would be a World title fight. Pavlik would look at it as a route back and Clev would see it as a big name.

by Imperial Ghosty Sat May 14, 2011 6:36 pm

Can't see Warren being willing to take such a high risk fight at this stage of Cleverlys career, if it ended up being a war then that plays right into Pavliks hands.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sat May 14, 2011 10:59 pm

Think he might unless Pavlik can be the fighter that he used to be then it won't happen. Froch is interested in a big fight in Britain might be an option next year.

by Young_Towzer Sat May 14, 2011 11:16 pm

With Warren behind him, look for Clev to fight unknowns to pad his record out and when he is 35 leave Warren to take on the best when they are past it.
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Look for Cleverly to win on saturday, be another british world champ who is genuine world level then hopefully fight the Pascal's/Cloud's

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sat May 14, 2011 11:33 pm

Steven_89 wrote:With Warren behind him, look for Clev to fight unknowns to pad his record out and when he is 35 leave Warren to take on the best when they are past it.
..................................
Look for Cleverly to win on saturday, be another british world champ who is genuine world level then hopefully fight the Pascal's/Cloud's

Don't see him beating Cloud, Dawson, Pascal or even Bhop

by Young_Towzer Sun May 15, 2011 1:23 am

Don't see him beating Cloud, Dawson, Pascal or even Bhop
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I think everyone would be a tough fight for him, Pascal is the one i'd stay away from, Cloud has power too. Just hope Warren doesnt have him in with poor fighters, ie what he's done with Burns since winning the title, i wonder who's next for Burns, maybe Scott Lawton? laughing

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun May 15, 2011 1:27 am

You're laughing but he isn't much worse than Evenson or Laryea.

by Young_Towzer Sun May 15, 2011 1:34 am

You're laughing but he isn't much worse than Evenson or Laryea.
................
I like Burns mate, think he's underrated but since beating the best he's fought the worst.

by D4thincarnation Sun May 15, 2011 1:40 am

Calzaghe was a special fighter, one of the greats of our generation, I don't think Cleverely will match his skill level but there is no shame in that.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun May 15, 2011 1:42 am

D4thincarnation wrote:Calzaghe was a special fighter, one of the greats of our generation, I don't think Cleverely will match his skill level but there is no shame in that.

Never really got the chance to prove it though because of Warren.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun May 15, 2011 1:45 am

Steven_89 wrote:You're laughing but he isn't much worse than Evenson or Laryea.
................
I like Burns mate, think he's underrated but since beating the best he's fought the worst.

I'm from Glasgow mate been to about 10 of his fights, he's good to watch. Warren priced them out of a fight with Fana and the other 2 Champs are Japanese and have never fought outside Japanin their combined 40 odd fights. It's not a strong division he should just rematch Martinez that was a FOTY contender last year imo.

by D4thincarnation Sun May 15, 2011 1:46 am

prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:Calzaghe was a special fighter, one of the greats of our generation, I don't think Cleverely will match his skill level but there is no shame in that.

Never really got the chance to prove it though because of Warren.

Hopkins, Kessler top fighters.

Who could he have fought at supermiddle?

Ottke?

He didn't want it.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun May 15, 2011 1:50 am

D4thincarnation wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:Calzaghe was a special fighter, one of the greats of our generation, I don't think Cleverely will match his skill level but there is no shame in that.

Never really got the chance to prove it though because of Warren.

Hopkins, Kessler top fighters.

Who could he have fought at supermiddle?

Ottke?

He didn't want it.

The Kessler victory was great but it would have been better if he could have fought Bhop and RJJ earlier in his career.

by BALTIMORA Sun May 15, 2011 1:50 am

There MUST have been better fights put there than Manfredo?!

by BALTIMORA Sun May 15, 2011 1:52 am

prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:Calzaghe was a special fighter, one of the greats of our generation, I don't think Cleverely will match his skill level but there is no shame in that.

Never really got the chance to prove it though because of Warren.

Hopkins, Kessler top fighters.

Who could he have fought at supermiddle?

Ottke?

He didn't want it.

The Kessler victory was great but it would have been better if he could have fought Bhop and RJJ earlier in his career.

In his biography Calzaghe talks about how shot Jones was...then goes and fights him a year or two later. Hypocrite.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun May 15, 2011 1:54 am

BALTIMORA wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:Calzaghe was a special fighter, one of the greats of our generation, I don't think Cleverely will match his skill level but there is no shame in that.

Never really got the chance to prove it though because of Warren.

Hopkins, Kessler top fighters.

Who could he have fought at supermiddle?

Ottke?

He didn't want it.

The Kessler victory was great but it would have been better if he could have fought Bhop and RJJ earlier in his career.

In his biography Calzaghe talks about how shot Jones was...then goes and fights him a year or two later. Hypocrite.

I like Calzaghe and think it's a shame that he never got to really prove how good he was their is always going to be a question mark surrounding him. Although I would have a prime RJJ to wipe the floor with him. KO in the middle rounds.

by D4thincarnation Sun May 15, 2011 1:54 am

BALTIMORA wrote:There MUST have been better fights put there than Manfredo?!

Jermaine Taylor was offered 5 million to face Calzaghe he turned it down and asked for 10m.

Hopkins turned down chances to face Joe as well.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun May 15, 2011 1:55 am

D4thincarnation wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:There MUST have been better fights put there than Manfredo?!

Jermaine Taylor was offered 5 million to face Calzaghe he turned it down and asked for 10m.

Hopkins turned down chances to face Joe as well.

D4 the problem was he was high risk with little reward they could earn more money in the states against a known fighter over their.

by BALTIMORA Sun May 15, 2011 1:56 am

Peter Manfredo Jr wasn't the next best option...

by Young_Towzer Sun May 15, 2011 1:57 am

In his biography Calzaghe talks about how shot Jones was...then goes and fights him a year or two later. Hypocrite.
......................................
He also fought genuine p4p fighters in Tocker Pudwill, Peter Manfredo, despite being a quality fighter i laugh at some of the praise he gets for fighting has beens, never gonna bees and shot fighters. A prime Jones Jr would of destroyed Calzaghe imo, he's top 6 brits, not the best though, no way imo.

by D4thincarnation Sun May 15, 2011 1:58 am

prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:There MUST have been better fights put there than Manfredo?!

Jermaine Taylor was offered 5 million to face Calzaghe he turned it down and asked for 10m.

Hopkins turned down chances to face Joe as well.

D4 the problem was he was high risk with little reward they could earn more money in the states against a known fighter over their.

No they couldn't

10 million?

What was the most Taylor ever earned, would be surprised it was more than 3 mil.

Hopkins was happy beating up Welters and Taylor was happy looking bad against light-middle.

by Young_Towzer Sun May 15, 2011 2:02 am

No they couldn't

10 million?

What was the most Taylor ever earned, would be surprised it was more than 3 mil.

Hopkins was happy beating up Welters and Taylor was happy looking bad against light-middle.
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dont believe everything Calzaghe/Warren put in the papers D4, Calzaghe said Pascal wasnt world class, do you remember that? now he's the Ring mag light heavyweight champ, and WBC light heavyweight champ.

by BALTIMORA Sun May 15, 2011 2:04 am

Steven_89 wrote:
In his biography Calzaghe talks about how shot Jones was...then goes and fights him a year or two later. Hypocrite.
......................................
He also fought genuine p4p fighters in Tocker Pudwill, Peter Manfredo, despite being a quality fighter i laugh at some of the praise he gets for fighting has beens, never gonna bees and shot fighters. A prime Jones Jr would of destroyed Calzaghe imo, he's top 6 brits, not the best though, no way imo.

Steady on. This is twice I've agreed with you in the same week..! Tocker Pudwill!! I forgot about him! Oh, and was it David Starie too? Awful, awful opponents, all courtesy of Fwank. There was some short little Latin dude too, who was a nothing opponent. Can't deny Calzaghe's talent, but bloody hell his record suffers under scrutiny.

by D4thincarnation Sun May 15, 2011 2:05 am

Steven_89 wrote:

No they couldn't

10 million?

What was the most Taylor ever earned, would be surprised it was more than 3 mil.

Hopkins was happy beating up Welters and Taylor was happy looking bad against light-middle.
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dont believe everything Calzaghe/Warren put in the papers D4, Calzaghe said Pascal wasnt world class, do you remember that? now he's the Ring mag light heavyweight champ, and WBC light heavyweight champ.

Pascal was unproven back then.

There was an offer to Taylor and he said he wanted 10 million.

Boyfredo was a bad fight, but don't blame Calzaghe for that.

by BALTIMORA Sun May 15, 2011 2:07 am

Why not blame Calzaghe? He was happy to sit in Wales and be fed soft touches.

by Young_Towzer Sun May 15, 2011 2:07 am

Steady on. This is twice I've agreed with you in the same week..! Tocker Pudwill!! I forgot about him! Oh, and was it David Starie too? Awful, awful opponents, all courtesy of Fwank. There was some short little Latin dude too, who was a nothing opponent. Can't deny Calzaghe's talent, but bloody hell his record suffers under scrutiny.
....................................
: Yahoo

..yeah he fought the highly regarded (by sports network) Starie too haha, who had been stopped by Dean Francis !

by BALTIMORA Sun May 15, 2011 2:09 am

Steven_89 wrote:
Steady on. This is twice I've agreed with you in the same week..! Tocker Pudwill!! I forgot about him! Oh, and was it David Starie too? Awful, awful opponents, all courtesy of Fwank. There was some short little Latin dude too, who was a nothing opponent. Can't deny Calzaghe's talent, but bloody hell his record suffers under scrutiny.
....................................
: ..yeah he fought the highly regarded (by sports network) Starie too haha, who had been stopped by Dean Francis !

Who? Kabery Salem, Evans Ashira...the list goes on.

by Young_Towzer Sun May 15, 2011 2:10 am

Pascal was unproven back then.

There was an offer to Taylor and he said he wanted 10 million.

Boyfredo was a bad fight, but don't blame Calzaghe for that.
..........................
No he wasnt unproven , he had just gone 12 hard rounds in a world title fight, he proved he could come again and did so by beating an unbeaten champ in Diaconu, then beating Diaconu again, then beating another unbeaten champ and ring magazine champ in Chad Dawson, Who's to blame for him fighting Manfredo then? he could of said to Frank i want a bigger challenge

by Young_Towzer Sun May 15, 2011 2:11 am

Who? Kabery Salem, Evans Ashira...the list goes on.
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Was quality the night he fought Lacy, our dad said fu** me Calzaghe's fighting someone who looks the part, then after the fight he said same old Calzaghe opponent (obviously laughing as he had destroyed a good fighter)
Smile

by BALTIMORA Sun May 15, 2011 2:12 am

Didn't Pascal also beat Diaconu one-armed? (He did.)

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun May 15, 2011 2:13 am

Of course Clazaghe is to blame he could have walked away or forced the issue with Frank but he is just as guilty of taking the money in this situation as Frank was.

by D4thincarnation Sun May 15, 2011 2:13 am

Lets have a look at some of the names on Hopkins recored during his reign at middleweight champ.

Steve Frank
Joe Lipsey
William Bo James
John David Jackson
Andrew Council
Simon Brown
Robert Allen
Antwun Echols
Syd Vanderpool

The list goes on but you get the message.

by BALTIMORA Sun May 15, 2011 2:14 am

The Lacy win I will give credit for, because Lacy was expected to be a real threat, and Calzaghe made him look wooden. A proper textbook display.

by D4thincarnation Sun May 15, 2011 2:15 am

BALTIMORA wrote:The Lacy win I will give credit for, because Lacy was expected to be a real threat, and Calzaghe made him look wooden. A proper textbook display.

Kessler, Hopkins

Calzaghe also beat some very good up and commers and some past champions.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun May 15, 2011 2:15 am

D4thincarnation wrote:Lets have a look at some of the names on Hopkins recored during his reign at middleweight champ.

Steve Frank
Joe Lipsey
William Bo James
John David Jackson
Andrew Council
Simon Brown
Robert Allen
Antwun Echols
Syd Vanderpool

The list goes on but you get the message.

You forgot to mention Eastman, De La Hoya, Joppy, Trinidad, Johnson but that wouldn't suit your arguement now would it?

by D4thincarnation Sun May 15, 2011 2:18 am

prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:Lets have a look at some of the names on Hopkins recored during his reign at middleweight champ.

Steve Frank
Joe Lipsey
William Bo James
John David Jackson
Andrew Council
Simon Brown
Robert Allen
Antwun Echols
Syd Vanderpool

The list goes on but you get the message.

You forgot to mention Eastman, De La Hoya, Joppy, Trinidad, Johnson but that wouldn't suit your arguement now would it?

Eastman: not world class, Joppy: ok Oscar: blown up welter just like Trinidad.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun May 15, 2011 2:20 am

D4thincarnation wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:Lets have a look at some of the names on Hopkins recored during his reign at middleweight champ.

Steve Frank
Joe Lipsey
William Bo James
John David Jackson
Andrew Council
Simon Brown
Robert Allen
Antwun Echols
Syd Vanderpool

The list goes on but you get the message.

You forgot to mention Eastman, De La Hoya, Joppy, Trinidad, Johnson but that wouldn't suit your arguement now would it?

Eastman: not world class, Joppy: ok Oscar: blown up welter just like Trinidad.

Johnson?

by Young_Towzer Sun May 15, 2011 2:20 am

Eastman: not world class, Joppy: ok Oscar: blown up welter just like Trinidad.
...................
D4 have you took your medication? Hopkins was a huge underdog in the Trinidad fight

by BALTIMORA Sun May 15, 2011 2:20 am

D4thincarnation wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:Lets have a look at some of the names on Hopkins recored during his reign at middleweight champ.

Steve Frank
Joe Lipsey
William Bo James
John David Jackson
Andrew Council
Simon Brown
Robert Allen
Antwun Echols
Syd Vanderpool

The list goes on but you get the message.

You forgot to mention Eastman, De La Hoya, Joppy, Trinidad, Johnson but that wouldn't suit your arguement now would it?

That'll be a no...

Eastman: not world class, Joppy: ok Oscar: blown up welter just like Trinidad.

by D4thincarnation Sun May 15, 2011 2:22 am

Antwun Echols: Again
Keith Holmes
Carl Daniels
Morrade Hakkar
Robert Allen: Again

Those 20 odd defences don't look that good now.

But the point is it is not who you fight, it is who you don't fight and Calzaghe took on the top guys and beat them.

by D4thincarnation Sun May 15, 2011 2:23 am

Steven_89 wrote:
Eastman: not world class, Joppy: ok Oscar: blown up welter just like Trinidad.
...................
D4 have you took your medication? Hopkins was a huge underdog in the Trinidad fight

He wasn't a huge underdog.

But credit for beating Trinidad but he was not a natural middle.

by BALTIMORA Sun May 15, 2011 2:24 am

D4thincarnation wrote:Antwun Echols: Again
Keith Holmes
Carl Daniels
Morrade Hakkar
Robert Allen: Again

Those 20 odd defences don't look that good now.

But the point is it is not who you fight, it is who you don't fight and Calzaghe took on the top guys and beat them.

Except for Jones, when it mattered, Dawson, Froch, Taylor, Johnson, blah blah blah...

Why are you so fussed about Calzaghe all of a sudden anyway D4? Don't you have a Manny thread to write..? Oh...

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Sun May 15, 2011 2:25 am

D4thincarnation wrote:Antwun Echols: Again
Keith Holmes
Carl Daniels
Morrade Hakkar
Robert Allen: Again

Those 20 odd defences don't look that good now.

But the point is it is not who you fight, it is who you don't fight and Calzaghe took on the top guys and beat them.

He didn't though because he didn't take on Taylor. He didn't take on RJJ until after JC said he was shot.

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