Just How Good Is Novak Djokovic?

The question is rhetorical, of course....


Blimey, what a match that was, tennis at its very, very best. Well done to both men, Andy was brillilant, played his socks off, this was probably what he meant by the word "brutal" he described their AO final before the match, instead it happened tonight, what a feast, what an utter, utter feast, shame about recovery time for tomorrow, but you never know...

Then again, how good was Nole, how much did he want it, how tough can one be....

How can I not be mad about Novak Djokovic, what a guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'll let you into a secret: I have run out of champagne , and have had to toast with red wine since Madrid, so again, I raise this lovely French glass of Argentinian merlot to one and only
NOLE IS THE BEST !!!!!!

Nitb, I can't believe he won that match. I was about to come on here and write the obituary on the streak. But even after his serve deserted him in the second and third set he found away to gut out this match. And in answer to your question how good is he? Well he is #1 in the world good. Barring an injury (knock on wood) he will get there real soon.

Nole is the best - he needs a little rest
He needs a little rest not another test
Not another test for another fest
For another fest: Noleis the best!

He is certainly mentally extremely strong at the moment and I say that as for one we could see he was not physically 100%.

Tenez, mon ami,

You know what they say (and my spinning instructor loves that one) Mind over matter, mind over matter....

Certainly! Though in sport they are usually indissociable but Djoko showed some guts tonight! So did Murray until he had to cross the line!

Forget about Nole...THIS body needs a rest good night

nighty!

NitB, don't expect Novak to roll over Nadal tomorrow (nearly today!)

Even though there are some people saying that Djoko is better than Rafa on clay, I have yet to see the evidence in a match of this importance and at RG.

I am not underestimating Djoko's genius, but Nadal is very comfortable on clay and he will run Djoko around much more than Murray did tonight and his FH to Novaks BH will give him a lot of trouble.

I don't expect Djoko to win on Sunday, it will be close, but not like tonight, I think Nadal will win it purely on his ability to hit the corners and finish it off in the open court, something which Murray must learn to do, and get his 1st serves in !

An intersting stat!

Djoko has won 6 of his last 8 matches versus Nadal. ...and the 2 he lost are:

1 - London O2 when he played without his contact lenses
2 - USO final when he was exhausted from his semi v Fed.

As GalleryPlay says tomorrow is not going to give us a good picture cause Djoko will be at 50% at best.

How good is Djokovic, well the man is now 9-0 against the top 5 having beaten every member of the top in his run. He is 6-0 against federer and Nadal. But the stat of nine straight wins for me against the top 5 is amazing. Considering that prior to this season Novak has a slightly losing record against top ten players. Well he has changed that around in a big way.

NOLEISTHEBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEST

Make that 10-0 against the top 5 players in the world, include a remarkable 7-0 against Federer and Nadal. NITB, you are a prophet Novak is the best right now, and it is causing a lot of bruised egos across the tennis world.

The answer is that he's really very good, and I can see him enjoying the benefits of a good match up of games against Nadal, now that his fitness issues and confidence are resolved.

Yesterday was actually a massive result considering that Djokovic played a 3hr+ match the night before. EVERYTHING was in Nadals favour given that epic semi-final, played late. I'm amazed he lost a clay match to anyone under those circumstances.

We could even see last night that Djoko was not moving as well as his usual best.

Bogbrush nice to see you in contributing. Djokovic was one of those somewhat late blooming players, when he was young he had some physical ailments and some mental toughness issues. Plus he changed around his forehand and serve to try to get to the next level where he could consistently beat the very best. The forehand changes paid off the serve didn't and he had to revert back to his old motion which since wimby has gotten better and better. But you have to admire the fact that he took major risks to get better and few of the top players would even dream of tinkering that dramatically with a good serve and forehand.

People forget that Djokovic finished in the top 3 each of the last 4 years with maybe the worst serve in the top 20. His serve isn't overwhelming now but he has a good second and overall his serve is very reliable. He managed a top 3 ranking with virtually no serve the last two seasons. It is only natural that once he worked out his conditioning issues and his serve issues that he move up from #3.

Socal, nice to be here and thanks.

Yes, Nole has been an odd player. I was at #1 Court in the 2009 quarters to see him lose to Tommy Haas and it was a hideous performance, mainly because of the way he persistently looked to his mother and had negligable mental strength out there. He looks a completely different animal now.

Maybe he'll go down as a bit of a Federer, who also blew a few years of potential dominance on the mental side. I suspect he'll need to make hay in the next 2 years though, as there's no way his body is going to stand up to that pace by 2014 - the stretching alone is weird! I see no reason why he shouldn't gather maybe 6/7 Slams though, which will make him a formidable player in the tables. A career Slam is there for him too. Certainly right now he is playing tremendously well, and it's nice to see someone finally realise their potential. He has also always been a gracious player (I'm overlooking the ball bouncing and some self-indulgence on the MTO front) so good luck to him.

Bogbrush, if you actually look at Novak's record of durability he has averaged about 88 matches a year in the last 4 years. And this season since he has worked out his fitness issues he has been remarkable, after a three hour match to come back and beat the king of clay like that it took a lot of lungs and a lot of heart. As for the ball bouncing I will refer you to my previous posts, it is up to the umpire to enforce the time limit between serves and if in that time period Novak wants to shave or eat a ham sandwhich that is entirely up to him.

if you actually look at Novak's record of durability he has averaged about 88 matches a year in the last 4 years
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Are you sure? I woudl be very surprised if that was the case.

Djokovic is finally fulfilling the potential many of us saw in him back in 07-08. He's taken the sport to a new level these past few months, the turnaround in his mind, game and fitness level is remarkable.

It makes for an exciting spectacle to see how the other guys now react to this, particularly of course Nadal, Federer and Murray. I still think Nadal is favourite in Paris on the slightly slower clay and we'll see how Nole fares at Wimbledon but at this rate he could beat Mac's 1984 82-3 W:L record...

I can't see Nadal being teh favourite in Paris. If he cannot beat a tired Djoko and knowing he tires quicker than Djoko nowadays, he just has to hope that Djoko gets elimated before the final...But if I were Nadal, I'd be equally worried of Murray actually.

Tenez wrote:if you actually look at Novak's record of durability he has averaged about 88 matches a year in the last 4 years
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Are you sure? I woudl be very surprised if that was the case.

Check the ATP website in fact in the last two seasons he has played 90 plus matches and in 2009 he led the ATP with 97 matches and he lead the ATP in wins as well. Just go to ATP world tour dot com to the Novak Djokovic page and compile the win loss records from his home page.

Lydian, I just want to see Novak get one more grandslam this season and be year end #1. The win streak thing is great but nobody says wow Guillermo vilas won 47 matches in a row he is the goat. Grandslams and #1 rankings are what seperate you from the pack. And so far this season he has 6750 points in a little more than a third of the season, most likely 12000 points will be enough for #1, so he is way above pace right now, I just want that year end #1 and another grandslam as a Novak fan. Win streak is just the cherry on top of the sundae.

ok...believe you. That's a lot of matches...more than Federer when Federer was winning everything.

For all of Novak's Mtos and his few withdrawals he has been very durable over the last few years. He is smart about it, if something hurts he takes a mto, if it still doesn't feel right he pulls out. I know as fans we like to see our champions battle through injury but this is an individual sport were the health of one single player is paramount and Novak takes no risks in that regard. He doesn't go macho over a single match or a tournament. He pulled out of two tourneys this year (rotterdam, and monte carlo) with borderline injuries because he just wanted rest and didn't want to risk anything. In my mind that is the way you have to pace yourself for the ATP tour, which is a 10 and a half month ordeal.

socal1976 wrote:Bogbrush, if you actually look at Novak's record of durability he has averaged about 88 matches a year in the last 4 years. And this season since he has worked out his fitness issues he has been remarkable, after a three hour match to come back and beat the king of clay like that it took a lot of lungs and a lot of heart. As for the ball bouncing I will refer you to my previous posts, it is up to the umpire to enforce the time limit between serves and if in that time period Novak wants to shave or eat a ham sandwhich that is entirely up to him.

Hmm, I was overlooking his ball-bouncing, but you're wrong to suggest that a player has no obligation to play within the spirit and rules until the Umpire enforces them. That's the same as saying you have no obligation not to mug old ladies for money until the police make you stop.

The rules are written down; players shouldn't need the Umpire there to make them effective. I don't need the police around to make me decline to steal from people.

Exactly! Fans are so keen to blame the system in which their idol thrives but it is the players' responsibilty not to abuse their stardom.

Sport is clearly a show for us, fans, and it is the fans' pressure, through sponsors or else, that allow the bending of the rules.

Nadal at 19, Miami 2005, was playing within the 20sec rule. That caused him to collapse physcally and lose a very rare 5 setter versus Federer, as he completely ran out of steam. 2 weeks later and his popularity growing, he roughly doubled that time between points with a very meticulous orchestrated routine.

Had he not becaome a popular player, he would never have been allowed that extra time.

It's fans responsibility to make sure sport is fair for all.

Again, I have no problem with the 20 second rule being enforced. But in twenty seconds if Novak wants to bounce the ball 29 times and he can pull it off within the regulation time period then his opponent has no gripe. Remember Roger didn't say that Novak was taking too long, he said you are bouncing the ball too much. Roger can complain about too much time between points, but if Novak wants to bounce the ball 55 times within the 20 seconds allowed between serves then Roger has no complaint. And if anyone broke the rules it was Federer (AO 2011) when he directed his comments at his opponent and not the match official. Its up to the match officials to have the guts to give warnings and then if the warnings don't carry weight give a point penalty. The first star player they give a point penalty will cause an uproar, but the ATP needs to support them on it and tell the players look this season you get 20 seconds period, end of story. And if those 20 seconds Novak wants to bounce the ball 5 or 50 times he is within his rights.

I don't see why ball bouncing in between points is such a big thing. Nadal has a slow service action and Djokovic likes the bounce the ball. For me it doesn't affect any outcome of a match. If it is within the 20 second law then fine. It is down to officials to enforce it. Take football and the six second law for the goalkeepers to release the ball? I never see a free kick ever given and keepers can take double that time.

The thing that annoys me is how they have to towel themselves after every single point. But really if they want to enforce the 20 second rule that is fine with me, they should do it fairly across the board and then I have no trouble. Maybe give the guy a warning fairly early in the match instead of waiting till set point or something like that.

socal1976 wrote:Again, I have no problem with the 20 second rule being enforced. But in twenty seconds if Novak wants to bounce the ball 29 times and he can pull it off within the regulation time period then his opponent has no gripe. Remember Roger didn't say that Novak was taking too long, he said you are bouncing the ball too much. Roger can complain about too much time between points, but if Novak wants to bounce the ball 55 times within the 20 seconds allowed between serves then Roger has no complaint. And if anyone broke the rules it was Federer (AO 2011) when he directed his comments at his opponent and not the match official. Its up to the match officials to have the guts to give warnings and then if the warnings don't carry weight give a point penalty. The first star player they give a point penalty will cause an uproar, but the ATP needs to support them on it and tell the players look this season you get 20 seconds period, end of story. And if those 20 seconds Novak wants to bounce the ball 5 or 50 times he is within his rights.

Novak, remember was also giving/getting directions from his coaching staff. Now I personally disagree and think that players should be allowed to get some direction, but he did break the rules there and so there also should have been a warning there.

For me it doesn't affect any outcome of a match.
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That's because you think this extra time taken is just trivial and simply the result of manic habits.

Both Nadal and Djoko could not play their games within the 20s rule without losing strength and precision in their shots.

The fact that you do not mind about it, doesn't make it fairer for those who develop their games according to the rules.

socal1976 wrote:Again, I have no problem with the 20 second rule being enforced. But in twenty seconds if Novak wants to bounce the ball 29 times and he can pull it off within the regulation time period then his opponent has no gripe. Remember Roger didn't say that Novak was taking too long, he said you are bouncing the ball too much. Roger can complain about too much time between points, but if Novak wants to bounce the ball 55 times within the 20 seconds allowed between serves then Roger has no complaint. And if anyone broke the rules it was Federer (AO 2011) when he directed his comments at his opponent and not the match official. Its up to the match officials to have the guts to give warnings and then if the warnings don't carry weight give a point penalty. The first star player they give a point penalty will cause an uproar, but the ATP needs to support them on it and tell the players look this season you get 20 seconds period, end of story. And if those 20 seconds Novak wants to bounce the ball 5 or 50 times he is within his rights.

Are you seriously suggesting the issue with Nadal and Djokovic has NOT been the time? Nadal routinely abuses the rules.

This is deflection from the point. At least you'r no longer arguing that the rules don't need to be obeyed until enforced by the Umpire.

Don't create straw men bogbrush, when did I say that the rules should not be applied. Its up to the umpire to enforce the rules not for Roger to be a vigilante. I guess Roger is the only player that has the right to berate his opposition in change overs, maybe that particular rule of etiquette that you are ignoring is meant for lesser mortals. You have a complaint, you direct it at the match official who is responsible for enforcing the rules.

You have a complaint, you direct it at the match official who is responsible for enforcing the rules. .
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If you think it's that simple, it shows you have not a very good grasp of the pressure players and referees are under.

socal1976 wrote:Don't create straw men bogbrush, when did I say that the rules should not be applied. Its up to the umpire to enforce the rules not for Roger to be a vigilante. I guess Roger is the only player that has the right to berate his opposition in change overs, maybe that particular rule of etiquette that you are ignoring is meant for lesser mortals. You have a complaint, you direct it at the match official who is responsible for enforcing the rules.

No strawman at all, you seem to be diverting the time violation into a point which suggests people are unhappy about antics WITHIN the time. The issue with Nadal especially has ALWAYS been that he abuses the time rules. It's not that he goes through his absurd routine (which I increasingly believe is NOT OCD, but is in fact a rountine designed to force him to take the time he needs to permit cardiovascular recovery), it's that HE TAKES TOO LONG.

When Nole has bounced the balls 15 or 22 times he has broken the time rules. If he really has a way of bouncing it 55 times as you suggest inside the rules then fine, but he can't, and that is the ultimate strawman, because you're citing a circumstance and defending it when it isn't even physically possible.

bogbrush wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Again, I have no problem with the 20 second rule being enforced. But in twenty seconds if Novak wants to bounce the ball 29 times and he can pull it off within the regulation time period then his opponent has no gripe. Remember Roger didn't say that Novak was taking too long, he said you are bouncing the ball too much. Roger can complain about too much time between points, but if Novak wants to bounce the ball 55 times within the 20 seconds allowed between serves then Roger has no complaint. And if anyone broke the rules it was Federer (AO 2011) when he directed his comments at his opponent and not the match official. Its up to the match officials to have the guts to give warnings and then if the warnings don't carry weight give a point penalty. The first star player they give a point penalty will cause an uproar, but the ATP needs to support them on it and tell the players look this season you get 20 seconds period, end of story. And if those 20 seconds Novak wants to bounce the ball 5 or 50 times he is within his rights.

Are you seriously suggesting the issue with Nadal and Djokovic has NOT been the time? Nadal routinely abuses the rules.

This is deflection from the point. At least you'r no longer arguing that the rules don't need to be obeyed until enforced by the Umpire.

Please show video or any other evidence to prove that nadal routinely abuses the rules...

Like I said Bogbrush, I find Fed's conduct more infuriating and a much bigger breach of etiquette. He should berate the official, lodge a complaint with the ATP council, he has a soapbox in the media to go out and state that people aren't following the rules. What he can't do is yell at his opponent in a change over. And actually bogbrush at most at most Novak bounces the ball 8 to 10 times maybe a dozen. That is easily possible within a 20 second period it takes less than a half second to bounce the ball and catch it. Like I said, the officials should warn them early in the match, if it keeps happening give them a point penalty, as long as this rule is universally enforced I will support said decision. When I talked about 55 ball bounces I was being sarcastic, just like when I said he could eat a ham sandwhich and shave, maybe you have your humor meter turned off.

Thing is that I don't regard Djokovics ball bouncing as anything like the issue Nadals messing about is. I think it was less deliberate, although he nontheless has a duty to control it, which he mostly does. Nadal doesn't vary at all, he takes all the time he feels like no matter what.

And as for Federer, if he did that with any regularity it'd be an issue; as it is how many times has he breached etiquette this way in his career?

This conversation does not seem to really be about Djokovic's ability in comparison to the rest of the tour.

Therefore i'd like to advise you all that there is a thread now for conversation about watching paint dry the amount of time taken between points.

Here: https://www.606v2.com/t5083-time-between-points-rules-who-cares

Thanks stealth, if you were a bookmaker who would be your favorite at RG rafa or Novak, or maybe someone else?

socal1976 wrote:Thanks stealth, if you were a bookmaker who would be your favorite at RG rafa or Novak, or maybe someone else?

Nadal, if only because of his record and that he's due a win. That said, every time i've backed him on the clay he's fallen to Djokovic!

I'm looking forward to watching Soderling at the French Open; he seems to really raise his game there and it will be interesting to see which draw he gets, be it Nadal or Djokovic. Over the last two years he's been good enough to take anyone down at Paris and I wouldn't be surprised if he did it again. Gasquet and Mayer have both been brilliant this year on the clay, so they're in with a shout of pulling off a few shocks too, although obviously they are highly unlikely to win it.

Stealth, pretty much in agreement plus like you say you get the feeling that Nadal is due and Djokovic at some point has to lose. But the other side of the coin is that 4 straight wins is still 4 straight wins. And if lets Rome or madrid were 5 setters would it have made a difference? Not really Novak probably would have won in 3 or 4 sets on both occassions and he didn't look any more spent at the end of those matches than nadal did.

As a Djokovic fan the two guys I fear the most outside of Nadal are Murray and Soderling. Murray looks to be rounding into shape nicely and Soderling although getting blown out in the second set really had Novak on the ropes in the first six games of their quarterfinal in Rome. Mayer and Gasquet are good darkhorses also think that melzer could give one of the higher ranked guys a real tough quarter or 4th round contest.

Stealth Maestro Agro Love wrote:Therefore i'd like to advise you all that there is a thread now for conversation about watching paint dry the amount of time taken between points.

I like your original description of waiting for Nadal to serve better. More colourful.

Nole is the best , at the moment.....an impressive all rounder, who is following in the foot steps of the Fed.....
Its catch me if you can for the rest :run1: