New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

I have heard it is:

6 French
6 English
7 Pro12 (1 guaranteed from each country, 3 on league position)
1 play-off (7th English and 7th French team)

Trying to find out is correct as we speak

Artful_Dodger wrote:If the English clubs have no HC or RCC next season how much money will McCafferty and the PRL lost the English game?

The Rugby Paper said that the Sky deal with the ERC was worth about 70m p.a., so they would be missing about 20m bearing in mind merit payments, admin costs, prize money etc.

The PRL have a very good deal with BT for the Aviva, so they should be ok financially.

Well Munchkin you perhaps don't believe it but the English are actually quite a big draw contrary to what Sin e thinks.

Going to use Sin e's own TV figures against him.    It's expected that Saturday afternoon is prime TV, more so than Friday evening.

The games involving the English sides both have highest ratings.


Sky Sports 2
w/e 13 Oct 2013
000's
1 LIVE RUGBY-HARLEQUINS V SCARLETS (SAT 1534) 242
2 LIVE JOHNSTONES PAINT TROPHY/#JOHNSTONES (TUE 1930 192
3 LIVE RUGBY-EXETER V CARDIFF (SUN 1232) 190
4 LIVE RUGBY-OSPREYS V LEINSTER (SAT 1743) 157
5 LIVE RUGBY-TOULON V GLASGOW (SUN 1448) 137
6 LIVE WORLD GRAND PRIX DARTS (FRI 1900) 135
7 WWE LATE NIGHT SMACKDOWN (FRI 2349) 100
8 ELITE LEAGUE SPEEDWAY (MON 1930) 93
9 LIVE RUGBY-EDINBURGH V MUNSTER (SAT 1300) 90
10 LIVE NFL- NEW ORLEANSNEW ENGLAND (SUN 2118) 88

beshocked wrote:Well Munchkin you perhaps don't believe it but the English are actually quite a big draw contrary to what Sin e thinks.

Going to use Sin e's own TV figures against him.    It's expected that Saturday afternoon is prime TV, more so than Friday evening.

The games involving the English sides both have highest ratings.


Sky Sports 2
w/e 13 Oct 2013
000's
1 LIVE RUGBY-HARLEQUINS V SCARLETS (SAT 1534) 242
2 LIVE JOHNSTONES PAINT TROPHY/#JOHNSTONES (TUE 1930 192
3 LIVE RUGBY-EXETER V CARDIFF (SUN 1232) 190
4 LIVE RUGBY-OSPREYS V LEINSTER (SAT 1743) 157
5 LIVE RUGBY-TOULON V GLASGOW (SUN 1448) 137
6 LIVE WORLD GRAND PRIX DARTS (FRI 1900) 135
7 WWE LATE NIGHT SMACKDOWN (FRI 2349) 100
8 ELITE LEAGUE SPEEDWAY (MON 1930) 93
9 LIVE RUGBY-EDINBURGH V MUNSTER (SAT 1300) 90
10 LIVE NFL- NEW ORLEANSNEW ENGLAND (SUN 2118) 88

My main point was that non-English sides are a much bigger draw than you like to pretend. Toulouse is as big a draw in that game (Saracens did not make the Top 10 the previous, unlike Edinburgh v Munster which was at an award time as well) and it certainly is embarrassing that such a big club like Leicester doesn't feature at all. I don't agree that Friday night is a bad night - there are very few games, no football to compete with.

Sin 'e and everyone.

A lesser ERC is going to be worse for all of us in the long run. that is the reality of the situation..

arguing who is a bigger draw etc is silly. all of us are , and the AP clubs have a very big potential future market as well..

Well, it was the PRL who got us into this situation in the first place.

All Sky cares about is that they have the UK broadcasting rights. Up to now many English posters were claiming that the media payments were based on England's large population and that is why they are entitled to more. Well, Sky will be broadcasting to the same population.

Sky don't care who plays in it. There are no English teams in the NFL, yet they broadcast it in the UK. By this time next year, Zebre v Connacht will be a must see game in the UK. Thats what Sky do, they provide unending hype.

  what a load of cowshit

mystiroakey wrote:

A lesser ERC is going to be worse for all of us in the long run. that is the reality of the situation..

That is probably true but in the short run everyone is ok and for that reason we will see a split.

the PRL will be ok because of the AP BT Sports deal
the Pro 12 and T14 will be ok because of Sky sponsorship of the Pro12, New TV deal in France.
These will more than make up for any shortfall in Heineken money (which is far from certain as 24% is save anyway by no English being involved)

We will all be better off financially next year which means no one wants an agreement badly enough

From Lapasset's opening address to the IRB General Assembly

http://ur7s.com/news/irb-chairman-bernard-lapasset-speaks-about-the-importance-of-cementing-place-in-olympic-family

“The IRB must continue to serve its unions, its athletes, fans and society through strong regulations, exceptional events, robust training, education and player welfare. But we also must evolve and we need to innovate and inspire to reach out and engage new participants and new audiences around the world.”

It'll be interesting to see how much evolution, innovation, inspiration and new participation comes out of this Euromess, and specifically Thursday's meeting.

geoff998rugby wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

A lesser ERC is going to be worse for all of us in the long run. that is the reality of the situation..

That is probably true but in the short run everyone is ok and for that reason we will see a split.

the PRL will be ok because of the AP BT Sports deal
the Pro 12 and T14 will be ok because of Sky sponsorship of the Pro12, New TV deal in France.
These will more than make up for any shortfall in Heineken money (which is far from certain as 24% is save anyway by no English being involved)

We will all be better off financially next year which means no one wants an agreement badly enough

It would be great to know the split in the BT Sports deal for Jeff and Euro coverage.  If PRL teams don't compete in European competition, does the total value of the deal get reduced to a Jeff only element.  If there is a Euro comp, are there any caveats there that specify particular teams (top up if guaranteed x number of Clermont and Toulouse vs Jeff team fixtures, for example).  How are the viewing figures going for rugby on BT Sport now that we have settled into the season?

mystiroakey wrote:Sin 'e and everyone.

A lesser ERC is going to be worse for all of us in the long run. that is the reality of the situation..

arguing who is a bigger draw etc is silly. all of us are , and the AP clubs have a very big potential future market as well..

strokey, and for that very reason, I hope that they will be welcomed back when they see the light

mystiroakey wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:" and that's why I think if PRL are out that then the 33% agreed may be reconsidered."

it cant not be !! It has to be, and sky will also offer a much lower amount due to the AP not being involved,

Why would they offer less to those who have refused to defect to the BT/PRL competition? Saying they will doesn't really make it happen, mystir.

Who knows? Considering the actions of their competitors (BT) maybe they will increase it now  

increase it without the english

you are joking right?

I doubt they will pay half- obviously everyone would hope for 2/3's of the revenue

But I would bet my house that BT wouldnt get involved in this comp- no one will auction against sky for it.- It would be to political for BT- its major market is england.

Hmm, an interesting (English) view of the world there, strokey  Are you by any chance related to any of the early empire cartographers?

NO but what i have is a brain and understand business(unlike some!!) As mentioned after- take out the french, take out the rabbo, it doesnt matter- this tournement is worse off AND WORTH LESS!!!!!

Stop the xenaphobic nonsense

You are hilarious, strokey, top quality stuff   Give up this business malarkey that you are in, you are destined for the stage and comedy

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

A lesser ERC is going to be worse for all of us in the long run. that is the reality of the situation..

That is probably true but in the short run everyone is ok and for that reason we will see a split.

the PRL will be ok because of the AP BT Sports deal
the Pro 12 and T14 will be ok because of Sky sponsorship of the Pro12, New TV deal in France.
These will more than make up for any shortfall in Heineken money (which is far from certain as 24% is save anyway by no English being involved)

We will all be better off financially next year which means no one wants an agreement badly enough

It would be great to know the split in the BT Sports deal for Jeff and Euro coverage.  If PRL teams don't compete in European competition, does the total value of the deal get reduced to a Jeff only element.  If there is a Euro comp, are there any caveats there that specify particular teams (top up if guaranteed x number of Clermont and Toulouse vs Jeff team fixtures, for example).  How are the viewing figures going for rugby on BT Sport now that we have settled into the season?

According to Derek McGrath in an interview in the Irish Examiner:

derek mcgrath wrote:
“The alternative is to start up a new competition based on the BT contract. It’s been said that this completion could generate £60 to £70 million. But the only bit known about that package is the BT element which would only make up £20 million, odd. No one has seen that contract so no one knows what it represents. And where’s the other £50 million coming from?

The figures for BT are very good varying from about 220k (highest) to about 30k. Soccer is 500K+.

I allways wanted to be a comedian ASBO,

I would certainly tap into the victim celt personality's..(have to bring up empiries and england into everything that in essence has nothing to do with it)

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Big wrote:Agree that the end game is in sight.  I'm not sure it's the result that PRL wanted, but actually it works pretty well for me.  I've said since early on that in my view the best thing for English rugby is no European Cup (or at least the Premiership teams, nothing wrong with the B&I cup for those in the Championship) - and that appears to be what is going to happen.

I can't imagine it's what the RFU or Lancaster would want tho, particularly in the year before RWC?  England need their best players playing at the highest level of club rugby possible - and that's European surely?

actually ASBO, i would gladly see the english clubs sit out HC in the season prior to RWC. Less chance of injury. More availability for squad training that the RFU could compensate the clubs for, and plug the very small financial hole created by no HC.

half the games in HC are rubbish anyway. playing against either weak sides or weakened sides.

i think SL would be quite excited about no HC for the english clubs.

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:Well Munchkin you perhaps don't believe it but the English are actually quite a big draw contrary to what Sin e thinks.

Going to use Sin e's own TV figures against him.    It's expected that Saturday afternoon is prime TV, more so than Friday evening.

The games involving the English sides both have highest ratings.


Sky Sports 2
w/e 13 Oct 2013
000's
1 LIVE RUGBY-HARLEQUINS V SCARLETS (SAT 1534) 242
2 LIVE JOHNSTONES PAINT TROPHY/#JOHNSTONES (TUE 1930 192
3 LIVE RUGBY-EXETER V CARDIFF (SUN 1232) 190
4 LIVE RUGBY-OSPREYS V LEINSTER (SAT 1743) 157
5 LIVE RUGBY-TOULON V GLASGOW (SUN 1448) 137
6 LIVE WORLD GRAND PRIX DARTS (FRI 1900) 135
7 WWE LATE NIGHT SMACKDOWN (FRI 2349) 100
8 ELITE LEAGUE SPEEDWAY (MON 1930) 93
9 LIVE RUGBY-EDINBURGH V MUNSTER (SAT 1300) 90
10 LIVE NFL- NEW ORLEANSNEW ENGLAND (SUN 2118) 88

My main point was that non-English sides are a much bigger draw than you like to pretend. Toulouse is as big a draw in that game (Saracens did not make the Top 10 the previous, unlike Edinburgh v Munster which was at an award time as well) and it certainly is embarrassing that such a big club like Leicester doesn't feature at all. I don't agree that Friday night is a bad night - there are very few games, no football to compete with.

I could easily retort that most of the people for the Toulon-Glasgow there were there to see Toulon and their stars.

Yes you are right. Saracens didn't make the top 10 in a game vs Connacht. Do you honestly think Connacht are a big draw? No one knows how big the viewing figures were.

Weren't Leicester facing Treviso who aren't exactly a big draw either?

Edinburgh vs Munster was on a Saturday at 1pm. Hardly a bad time.

Also Ulster-Leicester is nowhere to be seen.

geoff998rugby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:One think that strikes me is that this is possbily the most significant meeting of the last 2 months and there is not a peep about it in the BBC.

Is there anything in the British press?

I have to say that I have been shocked at the selectivity of the British media over this whole issue.

Will certaintly view with a more sceptical eye going forward, on all matters, not just Rugby

Really? Don't believe you're that shocked, it's absolutely par for the course!

Actually I am shocked to the extent of it
On this matter we might as well be reading Pravada and Investia.
It has been that biased

gimme a break. the only newspaper printing any of this stuff is the irish times and gerry thornley. it doesnt even get printed in wales or scotland, unless its to reference the irish times article. the BBC tends to prefer to have actual news to report rather than rumours without any on the record quotes from the irish times.

who is more biased here, the BBC or the irish times?

quinsforever wrote:

who is more biased here, the BBC or the irish times?

Hmmmm.................... well, given that Britain's very own MPs complain about the political and editorial persuasions of the BBC......... I say it's possible that both have a bias as there is absolutely nothing on this planet that you can drop the word 'Neutral' upon. Indeed, the very word itself should become obsolete from lack of traction in a real world.

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:One think that strikes me is that this is possbily the most significant meeting of the last 2 months and there is not a peep about it in the BBC.

Is there anything in the British press?

I have to say that I have been shocked at the selectivity of the British media over this whole issue.

Will certaintly view with a more sceptical eye going forward, on all matters, not just Rugby

Really? Don't believe you're that shocked, it's absolutely par for the course!

Actually I am shocked to the extent of it
On this matter we might as well be reading Pravada and Investia.
It has been that biased

gimme a break. the only newspaper printing any of this stuff is the irish times and gerry thornley. it doesnt even get printed in wales or scotland, unless its to reference the irish times article. the BBC tends to prefer to have actual news to report rather than rumours without any on the record quotes from the irish times.

who is more biased here, the BBC or the irish times?

French papers printing it as well.

Is that English arrogance that you don't keep an eye on the French media  

Its going to be really interesting what comes out of thursday's meeting.

I think the celtic unions are going to be very nervous about Camou's hardline position. Specifically they are going to want to know exactly how the money is going to be divided and what money there will be for an HC with SKY, but without the PRL. Because it doesnt look like the PRL are going to take part.

will the SKY money be proposed to be divided 50/50 between top14 and rabo12? if so, in order for Rabo not to get less money, does everyone realise this requires a 4% increase in the SKY money compared to when the PRL were part of it? Can anyone realistically see the french agreeing to take less than half the money that rabo12 get (old24% vs 52%), which is what would be required if SKY's payments dropped by the amount of the AP distribution?

for all his hardline stance, the people Camou needs to win over are the celtic unions, and there its all about money, short-term and long-term.

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:One think that strikes me is that this is possbily the most significant meeting of the last 2 months and there is not a peep about it in the BBC.

Is there anything in the British press?

I have to say that I have been shocked at the selectivity of the British media over this whole issue.

Will certaintly view with a more sceptical eye going forward, on all matters, not just Rugby

Really? Don't believe you're that shocked, it's absolutely par for the course!

Actually I am shocked to the extent of it
On this matter we might as well be reading Pravada and Investia.
It has been that biased

gimme a break. the only newspaper printing any of this stuff is the irish times and gerry thornley. it doesnt even get printed in wales or scotland, unless its to reference the irish times article. the BBC tends to prefer to have actual news to report rather than rumours without any on the record quotes from the irish times.

who is more biased here, the BBC or the irish times?

French papers printing it as well.

Is that English arrogance that you don't keep an eye on the French media  

good one sin e. i occasionally look at the pictures in Paris Match  

i am of course aware that goebbels thornley was re-quoting alleged reports from midi olympique. it is after all the ffr and lnr who are fighting.

point is, the BBC tend to report news. at this point its all supposition. as soon as a statement comes out from LNR or FFR or HEC or ERC i am sure the BBC will run a story.

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:One think that strikes me is that this is possbily the most significant meeting of the last 2 months and there is not a peep about it in the BBC.

Is there anything in the British press?

I have to say that I have been shocked at the selectivity of the British media over this whole issue.

Will certaintly view with a more sceptical eye going forward, on all matters, not just Rugby

Really? Don't believe you're that shocked, it's absolutely par for the course!

Actually I am shocked to the extent of it
On this matter we might as well be reading Pravada and Investia.
It has been that biased

gimme a break. the only newspaper printing any of this stuff is the irish times and gerry thornley. it doesnt even get printed in wales or scotland, unless its to reference the irish times article. the BBC tends to prefer to have actual news to report rather than rumours without any on the record quotes from the irish times.

who is more biased here, the BBC or the irish times?

To answer you question the BBC
THe whole point is the English media have ONLY printed the PRL viewpoint.
Whenever other bodies have made statements they have kept quiet - thats the point.
One sided reporting

quinsforever wrote:Its going to be really interesting what comes out of thursday's meeting.

I think the celtic unions are going to be very nervous about Camou's hardline position. Specifically they are going to want to know exactly how the money is going to be divided and what money there will be for an HC with SKY, but without the PRL. Because it doesnt look like the PRL are going to take part.

will the SKY money be proposed to be divided 50/50 between top14 and rabo12? if so, in order for Rabo not to get less money, does everyone realise this requires a 4% increase in the SKY money compared to when the PRL were part of it? Can anyone realistically see the french agreeing to take less than half the money that rabo12 get (old24% vs 52%), which is what would be required if SKY's payments dropped by the amount of the AP distribution?

for all his hardline stance, the people Camou needs to win over are the celtic unions, and there its all about money, short-term and long-term.

Not really.  What is infinitely more important in a money generating way is to be present in the contest.  Presence allows teams to up their asking price on any sponsorhsip they are exclusively involved in themselves.  Presence in a pan European event is the key to the money making circle whereby being seen makes your shirts more expensive to buy, as distinct from not being seen and your shirts being worthless.  Token non-participatory compensation money will never beat participation money as the desired avenue.

quinsforever wrote:Its going to be really interesting what comes out of thursday's meeting.

I think the celtic unions are going to be very nervous about Camou's hardline position. Specifically they are going to want to know exactly how the money is going to be divided and what money there will be for an HC with SKY, but without the PRL. Because it doesnt look like the PRL are going to take part.

will the SKY money be proposed to be divided 50/50 between top14 and rabo12? if so, in order for Rabo not to get less money, does everyone realise this requires a 4% increase in the SKY money compared to when the PRL were part of it? Can anyone realistically see the french agreeing to take less than half the money that rabo12 get (old24% vs 52%), which is what would be required if SKY's payments dropped by the amount of the AP distribution?

for all his hardline stance, the people Camou needs to win over are the celtic unions, and there its all about money, short-term and long-term.

There is not a problem  - England currently have 24% of the revenue which wont need to be paid. Even assuming a drop in Sky money there will be plenty to go round.
I feel cerain the French will go with the same arrangement as previously discussed i.e a guarantee to the Pro12 sides their revenue will not drop.. Add this to a new French TV deal and the money offered from the FFR and I think you will find the French clubs will be more than happy.

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:One think that strikes me is that this is possbily the most significant meeting of the last 2 months and there is not a peep about it in the BBC.

Is there anything in the British press?

I have to say that I have been shocked at the selectivity of the British media over this whole issue.

Will certaintly view with a more sceptical eye going forward, on all matters, not just Rugby

Really? Don't believe you're that shocked, it's absolutely par for the course!

Actually I am shocked to the extent of it
On this matter we might as well be reading Pravada and Investia.
It has been that biased

gimme a break. the only newspaper printing any of this stuff is the irish times and gerry thornley. it doesnt even get printed in wales or scotland, unless its to reference the irish times article. the BBC tends to prefer to have actual news to report rather than rumours without any on the record quotes from the irish times.

who is more biased here, the BBC or the irish times?

To answer you question the BBC
THe whole point is the English media have ONLY printed the PRL viewpoint.
Whenever other bodies have made statements they have kept quiet - thats the point.
One sided reporting

TBF mate they haven't printed much..

They dont really get caught up in speculation.. They try to report facts

There is no doubt that the French will win and the Pro12 will gleefully help them do so in attempt to screw the English.

mystiroakey wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:One think that strikes me is that this is possbily the most significant meeting of the last 2 months and there is not a peep about it in the BBC.

Is there anything in the British press?

I have to say that I have been shocked at the selectivity of the British media over this whole issue.

Will certaintly view with a more sceptical eye going forward, on all matters, not just Rugby

Really? Don't believe you're that shocked, it's absolutely par for the course!

Actually I am shocked to the extent of it
On this matter we might as well be reading Pravada and Investia.
It has been that biased

gimme a break. the only newspaper printing any of this stuff is the irish times and gerry thornley. it doesnt even get printed in wales or scotland, unless its to reference the irish times article. the BBC tends to prefer to have actual news to report rather than rumours without any on the record quotes from the irish times.

who is more biased here, the BBC or the irish times?

To answer you question the BBC
THe whole point is the English media have ONLY printed the PRL viewpoint.
Whenever other bodies have made statements they have kept quiet - thats the point.
One sided reporting

TBF mate they haven't printed much..

They dont really get caught up in speculation.. They try to report facts

strokey, you can't be that naive? - the BBC is notorious for reporting a very Anglo-centric version of facts, in fact very SE/London-Anglo-centric version. It is essentially run by former new Labour neo-con stooges

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Its going to be really interesting what comes out of thursday's meeting.

I think the celtic unions are going to be very nervous about Camou's hardline position. Specifically they are going to want to know exactly how the money is going to be divided and what money there will be for an HC with SKY, but without the PRL. Because it doesnt look like the PRL are going to take part.

will the SKY money be proposed to be divided 50/50 between top14 and rabo12? if so, in order for Rabo not to get less money, does everyone realise this requires a 4% increase in the SKY money compared to when the PRL were part of it? Can anyone realistically see the french agreeing to take less than half the money that rabo12 get (old24% vs 52%), which is what would be required if SKY's payments dropped by the amount of the AP distribution?

for all his hardline stance, the people Camou needs to win over are the celtic unions, and there its all about money, short-term and long-term.

There is not a problem  - England currently have 24% of the revenue which wont need to be paid. Even assuming a drop in Sky money there will be plenty to go round.
I feel cerain the French will go with the same arrangement as previously discussed i.e a guarantee to the Pro12 sides their revenue will not drop.. Add this to a new French TV deal and the money offered from the FFR and I think you will find the French clubs will be more than happy.

Its a big problem mate..

Because SKY have offered nothing in regards to a scaled down ERC. SKY pay one amount to the ERC- its the ERC that splits that revenue up

Oh they've been indulging in the speculation more than enough over the months to be part of the whole gig at this stage, mystir.

beshocked wrote:There is no doubt that the French will win and the Pro12 will gleefully help them do so in attempt to screw the English.

beshocked, taking the emotion out of this for a second, I don't really believe that anyone wants to 'screw' the English - most sensible folks would much rather a European tournament for the best clubs from each nation. However, it would seem that one or two English posters would actually rather stay out of any such tournie? (see above)

SecretFly wrote:Oh they've been indulging in the speculation more than enough over the months to be part of the whole gig at this stage, mystir.  

Well it seems really hard finding any articles on this that iant from an irish source mate..

I have spent way to much time hunting google for articles.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:There is no doubt that the French will win and the Pro12 will gleefully help them do so in attempt to screw the English.

beshocked, taking the emotion out of this for a second, I don't really believe that anyone wants to 'screw' the English - most sensible folks would much rather a European tournament for the best clubs from each nation.  However, it would seem that one or two English posters would actually rather stay out of any such tournie? (see above)

I'd add the continuing sentiment to the above - that screwing a league and its participating Unions wasn't ever on the agenda of the French and English to begin with?

If the PRL loses this screwing game then they might just have to raise a hand and admit that they introduced it as perhaps an enjoyable  game to play in the first place.

Plenty of articles in French if you can read it, also seen a fair few from Wales.

The ERC have an agreement with Sky and part of that agreement will be some provision if a particular country drops out.

This split is a huge opportunity for Sky - they are too smart to drop the ball.

"The ERC have an agreement with Sky and part of that agreement will be some provision if a particular country drops out.
"

speculation that we know nothing about. we dont know if there is one and we dont know what the deal would be if they did. They cant just have one provision based on any country dropping out.

No disrespect to the Italians here- but sky wouldnt really mind if they dropped out- the AP or the french or both is a very different matter

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:beshocked, taking the emotion out of this for a second, I don't really believe that anyone wants to 'screw' the English - most sensible folks would much rather a European tournament for the best clubs from each nation.  However, it would seem that one or two English posters would actually rather stay out of any such tournie? (see above)

 
I think the reasons I gave are justifiable and fair, but given that I am in all likelihood the only one that shares that view I don't think it carries too much weight.

Agree with mystiroakey above - I'd be utterly gobsmacked if clauses for the non-participation of the English and/or French clubs weren't contracted in by Sky and ERC given both nations had handed in notice to withdraw. Without knowing what those clauses are I don't think there's too much to be said. Clearly the Rabo and French unions felt there was enough on offer to justify continuing talks.

Big wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:beshocked, taking the emotion out of this for a second, I don't really believe that anyone wants to 'screw' the English - most sensible folks would much rather a European tournament for the best clubs from each nation.  However, it would seem that one or two English posters would actually rather stay out of any such tournie? (see above)

 
I think the reasons I gave are justifiable and fair, but given that I am in all likelihood the only one that shares that view I don't think it carries too much weight.

Agree with mystiroakey above - I'd be utterly gobsmacked if clauses for the non-participation of the English and/or French clubs weren't contracted in by Sky and ERC given both nations had handed in notice to withdraw.  Without knowing what those clauses are I don't think there's too much to be said.  Clearly the Rabo and French unions felt there was enough on offer to justify continuing talks.

Big, am not belittling your view in any way, just to be clear, you are fully entitled to it - also you'll note that quinsforever is supportive of that view too

SecretFly wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:There is no doubt that the French will win and the Pro12 will gleefully help them do so in attempt to screw the English.

beshocked, taking the emotion out of this for a second, I don't really believe that anyone wants to 'screw' the English - most sensible folks would much rather a European tournament for the best clubs from each nation.  However, it would seem that one or two English posters would actually rather stay out of any such tournie? (see above)

I'd add the continuing sentiment to the above - that screwing a league and its participating Unions wasn't ever on the agenda of the French and English to begin with?

If the PRL loses this screwing game then they might just have to raise a hand and admit that they introduced it as perhaps an enjoyable  game to play in the first place.

Difficult to not have a little emotion. The English as seen as the instigators of all this whilst the French are not.

The biggest winners in all this will be the French irrespective of how things pan out.

Not quite sure how wanting fairer qualification rules is screwing anyone - it's just looking for balance.

Well actually the PRL never wanted to completely isolate any particular union or clubs. They want a restucturing which I think is fair enough when there are imbalances.

Not everything PRL has done is right of course and it's been handled in an awkward manner but they still have a fundamental point in wanting a restructure where the bloated and incompetent ERC's power is reduced.

The Pro12 and Camou desire in comparison is to cut away the English teams.

I think the English poster who want to stay out of the tournie are putting on a brave face. I don't want to see English clubs isolated but with this rabid Camou being very stubborn in his anti-English stance I am not unfortunately starting to see that as happening.

indeed i am supportive of your view Big. For the reasons you described, and others.

I have no doubt that being excluded by Camou and the celtic unions is going to steel the resolve of the RFU and PRL to absolutely make the best of English rugby.

and after a season withouth HC, if england perform fantastically in the RWC, and that provides a massive grass roots lift to club and amateur rugby in england, i would only consider rejoining ERC if camou came cap in hand on bended knee. and i don't think i would settle for only 1/3 of the money for AP teams.

Neither the french or english clubs need the HC. everyone else does. that's all.

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:There is no doubt that the French will win and the Pro12 will gleefully help them do so in attempt to screw the English.

beshocked, taking the emotion out of this for a second, I don't really believe that anyone wants to 'screw' the English - most sensible folks would much rather a European tournament for the best clubs from each nation.  However, it would seem that one or two English posters would actually rather stay out of any such tournie? (see above)

I'd add the continuing sentiment to the above - that screwing a league and its participating Unions wasn't ever on the agenda of the French and English to begin with?

If the PRL loses this screwing game then they might just have to raise a hand and admit that they introduced it as perhaps an enjoyable  game to play in the first place.

Difficult to not have a little emotion. The English as seen as the instigators of all this whilst the French are not.

The biggest winners in all this will be the French irrespective of how things pan out.

Not quite sure how wanting fairer qualification rules is screwing anyone - it's just looking for balance.

Well actually the PRL never wanted to completely isolate any particular union or clubs. They want a restucturing which I think is fair enough when there are imbalances.

Not everything PRL has done is right of course and it's been handled in an awkward manner but they still have a fundamental point in wanting a restructure where the bloated and incompetent ERC's power is reduced.

The Pro12 and Camou desire in comparison is to cut away the English teams.

I think the English poster who want to stay out of the tournie are putting on a brave face. I don't want to see English clubs isolated but with this rabid Camou being very stubborn in his anti-English stance I am not unfortunately starting to see that as happening.

i haven't seen any evidence of this? Have you any links?

quinsforever wrote:indeed i am supportive of your view Big. For the reasons you described, and others.

I have no doubt that being excluded by Camou and the celtic unions is going to steel the resolve of the RFU and PRL to absolutely make the best of English rugby.

and after a season withouth HC, if england perform fantastically in the RWC, and that provides a massive grass roots lift to club and amateur rugby in england, i would only consider rejoining ERC if camou came cap in hand on bended knee. and i don't think i would settle for only 1/3 of the money for AP teams.

Neither the french or english clubs need the HC. everyone else does. that's all.

As an Exeter supporter at club level, I totally disagree with this - we need to be playing against the best in Europe, there is absolutely no question of that. Thus far in the Heino we have met Leinster, Clermont, Scarlets, Blouses, and Glasgow, and will shortly add Toulon to that list - that level of competition and different styles of play is simply not available in the AP alone

We dont want out, but if it happens it happens, lets look to the positives.

Our players would be fresh for the WC is one,.

And in the long run all teams will be back in..

SecretFly wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

beshocked wrote:There is no doubt that the French will win and the Pro12 will gleefully help them do so in attempt to screw the English.

beshocked, taking the emotion out of this for a second, I don't really believe that anyone wants to 'screw' the English - most sensible folks would much rather a European tournament for the best clubs from each nation.  However, it would seem that one or two English posters would actually rather stay out of any such tournie? (see above)

I'd add the continuing sentiment to the above - that screwing a league and its participating Unions wasn't ever on the agenda of the French and English to begin with?

If the PRL loses this screwing game then they might just have to raise a hand and admit that they introduced it as perhaps an enjoyable  game to play in the first place.

ah SF, shall we keep going back in time pointing fingers at screwers? should we go back to ERC and the celtic unions 18months-2years ago then?

it doesnt matter anymore. whats done is done. but i am shocked that anyone thinks the ERC is a fit for purpose organisation. PRL refusing. top14 allegedly being force-marched at gunpoint? does this augur well? is this a promising beginning?

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