The best Manager of all time?

First topic message reminder :

In light of sir Alex Ferguson's 19th title win, is it fair to call him the best of all time. His only real competition in this era was probably Murinho, but he has nowhere near the longevity of Ferguson. It could also be argued that Dalglish provided stiff competition and it could be intersting in future seasons as long as both of them stick around.
But before Ferguson, what about Brian Clough or Don Revvie, or what about Alf Ramsey. Your thoughts on the Greatest of all time?

St Mirren sacked Fergie Brady.

Brady12 wrote:

FreekShow wrote:Forest lost their best player at the start of the 92/93 season. The coffers were empty and the squad was paper thin. I doubt any manager would have stopped the rot that season.

Manchester Utd is a completely different animal to Nottingham Forest. Even when Fergie took over they were the biggest club in England, arguably the world and they always had a massive transfer budget.

Brian Clough's achievement in winning the top club prize two years in a row with a relatively medium sized club at best will never be repeated.

Liverpool were the biggest team in England at the time. United hadn't won the league for 20 years you clown

The most successful yes, the biggest no. And it was 26 years. If you are going to resort to name calling then at least try and get the facts right first!

Forest sold Sheringham why? To feed Cloughs booze habit? They still had Keane, Nigel Clough, Crossley, Pearce, to name just a few easily enough quality to finish above the drop zone... Are we putting Frank Clarke into this debate as 2 seasons later Forest finished 3rd in the Prem

Brady12 wrote:Forest sold Sheringham why? To feed Cloughs booze habit? They still had Keane, Nigel Clough, Crossley, Pearce, to name just a few easily enough quality to finish above the drop zone... Are we putting Frank Clarke into this debate as 2 seasons later Forest finished 3rd in the Prem

'to feed Clough's booze habit'

What a pathetic response. I don't know if you aware but the club handles incoming transfer money.

FreekShow wrote:

Brady12 wrote:

FreekShow wrote:Forest lost their best player at the start of the 92/93 season. The coffers were empty and the squad was paper thin. I doubt any manager would have stopped the rot that season.

Manchester Utd is a completely different animal to Nottingham Forest. Even when Fergie took over they were the biggest club in England, arguably the world and they always had a massive transfer budget.

Brian Clough's achievement in winning the top club prize two years in a row with a relatively medium sized club at best will never be repeated.

Liverpool were the biggest team in England at the time. United hadn't won the league for 20 years you clown

The most successful yes, the biggest no. And it was 26 years. If you are going to resort to name calling then
at least try and get the facts right first!

Utd last won the league in 67 Fergie joined in 86 roughly 20 years that's what I was refering to. They 1st won the league in 92-93. Some 7 years after Fergie arrived. Get your facts right I knew more about Football when I was 10 than you'll ever know

Brady12 wrote:The modern Champions League is much superior to The old European Cup. 4 teams qualify from the major leagues in Europe. In Cloughs era it was just 1. I think if Fergie could play Malmo or Hamburg in the final as a pose to Barca he'd stand a better chance.

3 finals in 4 years isn't too shabby in the more difficult current climate. What did clough win in his last ten years as a manager? A Littlewoods cup or 2?

Fergie never sacked or relegated. Clough sacked by Leeds & relegated Forest (where he should of been sacked)

Fergie 48 trophies both North & South of the border how many for Clough? 10 tops? Fergie's won 10 more league titles than Clough it's laughable to compare the 2

There's a difference between being the best manager and being the most successful, if there wasn't there would be no point in starting this debate. Also Ferguson has been sacked. You're right it's not too shabby but it's not the same as winning two in a row, I'm sure if Barcelona could play Nottingham Forest in the final they would consider it to be a much easier game, Malmo and Hamburg got to the final and therefore deserved to be there.

Did you do any maths at that age too?

FreekShow wrote:St Mirren sacked Fergie Brady.

This wasn't for Footballing reasons but because he spoke to Aberdeen behind there back. He turned them from bottom of 2nd division to 1st division champs

Derbyblue wrote:

Brady12 wrote:The modern Champions League is much superior to The old European Cup. 4 teams qualify from the major leagues in Europe. In Cloughs era it was just 1. I think if Fergie could play Malmo or Hamburg in the final as a pose to Barca he'd stand a better chance.

3 finals in 4 years isn't too shabby in the more difficult current climate. What did clough win in his last ten years as a manager? A Littlewoods cup or 2?

Fergie never sacked or relegated. Clough sacked by Leeds & relegated Forest (where he should of been sacked)

Fergie 48 trophies both North & South of the border how many for Clough? 10 tops? Fergie's won 10 more league titles than Clough it's laughable to compare the 2

There's a difference between being the best manager and being the most successful, if there wasn't there would be no point in starting this debate. Also Ferguson has been sacked. You're right it's not too shabby but it's not the same as winning two in a row, I'm sure if Barcelona could play Nottingham Forest in the final they would consider it to be a much easier game, Malmo and Hamburg got to the final and therefore deserved to be there.

The thing is Derby you can't have a debate with an apparent Utd fanboy who believes that Utd won the league the moment Fergie took his post!

FreekShow wrote:

Brady12 wrote:Forest sold Sheringham why? To feed Cloughs booze habit? They still had Keane, Nigel Clough, Crossley, Pearce, to name just a few easily enough quality to finish above the drop zone... Are we putting Frank Clarke into this debate as 2 seasons later Forest finished 3rd in the Prem

'to feed Clough's booze habit'

What a pathetic response. I don't know if you aware but the club handles incoming transfer money.

Clough was alleged to have received illegal payments during transfer negotiations.

Derbyblue wrote:

FreekShow wrote:

Brady12 wrote:Forest sold Sheringham why? To feed Cloughs booze habit? They still had Keane, Nigel Clough, Crossley, Pearce, to name just a few easily enough quality to finish above the drop zone... Are we putting Frank Clarke into this debate as 2 seasons later Forest finished 3rd in the Prem

'to feed Clough's booze habit'

What a pathetic response. I don't know if you aware but the club handles incoming transfer money.

Clough was alleged to have received illegal payments during transfer negotiations.

Alleged being the key word there.

Brady12 wrote:

FreekShow wrote:St Mirren sacked Fergie Brady.

This wasn't for Footballing reasons but because he spoke to Aberdeen behind there back. He turned them from bottom of 2nd division to 1st division champs

But he was still sacked, and therefore you can't say he was never sacked.

FreekShow wrote:

Derbyblue wrote:

FreekShow wrote:

Brady12 wrote:Forest sold Sheringham why? To feed Cloughs booze habit? They still had Keane, Nigel Clough, Crossley, Pearce, to name just a few easily enough quality to finish above the drop zone... Are we putting Frank Clarke into this debate as 2 seasons later Forest finished 3rd in the Prem

'to feed Clough's booze habit'

What a pathetic response. I don't know if you aware but the club handles incoming transfer money.

Clough was alleged to have received illegal payments during transfer negotiations.

Alleged being the key word there.

Yes it is the key word there, but Rick Parry (who investigated the case as Chief Executive of the Premier League) said he was surprised that the FA didn't charge Clough as they felt on the balance of evidence he was guilty of taking bungs, however he always denied it.

Trophies won by Ferguson 47
Trophies won by Clough 10

There's no comparison
Clough won 2 trophies in his last 10 years as a manager
Ferguson hasnt gone 3 years without winning a trophy in the last 30!!

Ferguson has had a more decorated career that spans longer & in 2 different countries

Brady12 wrote:Trophies won by Ferguson 47
Trophies won by Clough 10

There's no comparison
Clough won 2 trophies in his last 10 years as a manager
Ferguson hasnt gone 3 years without winning a trophy in the last 30!!

Ferguson has had a more decorated career that spans longer & in 2 different countries

So you're going to completely ignore my point that there is a difference between the best and most successful? If we were to compare trophies to number of years in management then I would guess Guardiola would have to close to the best.

Derbyblue wrote:

Brady12 wrote:Trophies won by Ferguson 47
Trophies won by Clough 10

There's no comparison
Clough won 2 trophies in his last 10 years as a manager
Ferguson hasnt gone 3 years without winning a trophy in the last 30!!

Ferguson has had a more decorated career that spans longer & in 2 different countries

So you're going to completely ignore my point that there is a difference between the best and most successful? If we were to compare trophies to number of years in management then I would guess Guardiola would have to close to the best.

???? Please explain? What else can you judge the best as? The least succesful? Best as chinning fans? Best at being arrogant? Best at being an alki?
If Guardiola maintains this record for the next 30 years then he would have to be considered up there with Fergie

Brady12 wrote:

Derbyblue wrote:

Brady12 wrote:Trophies won by Ferguson 47
Trophies won by Clough 10

There's no comparison
Clough won 2 trophies in his last 10 years as a manager
Ferguson hasnt gone 3 years without winning a trophy in the last 30!!

Ferguson has had a more decorated career that spans longer & in 2 different countries

So you're going to completely ignore my point that there is a difference between the best and most successful? If we were to compare trophies to number of years in management then I would guess Guardiola would have to close to the best.

???? Please explain? What else can you judge the best as? The least succesful? Best as chinning fans? Best at being arrogant? Best at being an alki?
If Guardiola maintains this record for the next 30 years then he would have to be considered up there with Fergie

Well you're counting the most trophies as being the best. Also surely you have to take into account how difficult it was to win said trophies, for example the reason I wouldn't count Guardiola as one of the best is look at his team, he's got most of the best players in the world makes it much easier, however if he continued to do it while bringing through youthful players then he could be put into the discussion.

Whenever this 'debate' is brought up you notice the same thing every time, all fans offer suggestions based on their own club and chuck a few other names into the ring because they acheived relatively great things with what they had at their diposal eg. Clough, Ramsey, Robson etc.

However only Utd fans dismiss everyone elses opinion 'because Fergie won more things', they deny he ever spent the most even though he broke more transfer records than ANY other manager, they think greatness only occurs at their own club but worst of all, they don't realise that it's them that everyone thinks is a muppett and they more than anyone else are responsible for ABU being the most supported 'team' in Britain.

Most people respect Fergie and virtually everyone loves the performances Utd offer (even if we think they get preferential treatment too often), but to many Utd fans are blinkered to anything outside Old Trafford, so remember, it's you we all hate, not your club.

ReallyReal wrote:Whenever this 'debate' is brought up you notice the same thing every time, all fans offer suggestions based on their own club and chuck a few other names into the ring because they acheived relatively great things with what they had at their diposal eg. Clough, Ramsey, Robson etc.

However only Utd fans dismiss everyone elses opinion 'because Fergie won more things', they deny he ever spent the most even though he broke more transfer records than ANY other manager, they think greatness only occurs at their own club but worst of all, they don't realise that it's them that everyone thinks is a muppett and they more than anyone else are responsible for ABU being the most supported 'team' in Britain.

Most people respect Fergie and virtually everyone loves the performances Utd offer (even if we think they get preferential treatment too often), but to many Utd fans are blinkered to anything outside Old Trafford, so remember, it's you we all hate, not your club.

I won't dismiss whats happened at other clubs its just my belief that Fergie is the greatest manager certainly of my time and maybe ever. I don't think anybody could ever rival his record in his time at United (especially when you consider he was facing the sack at one point)

Your other comments about us being hated have no relevance to this debate so I won't bother responding to them

Got to say Sir Alex Ferguson. I know he isn't everyone's cup of tea, but he has turned Machester United into the force they are today. Has got all his decisions right, when he had to re-build team after team he has still managed to produce results and trophies. I am not a Man Utd fan, but I can't argue you against his stats.

Derbyblue wrote:

Brady12 wrote:

Derbyblue wrote:

Brady12 wrote:Trophies won by Ferguson 47
Trophies won by Clough 10

There's no comparison
Clough won 2 trophies in his last 10 years as a manager
Ferguson hasnt gone 3 years without winning a trophy in the last 30!!

Ferguson has had a more decorated career that spans longer & in 2 different countries

So you're going to completely ignore my point that there is a difference between the best and most successful? If we were to compare trophies to number of years in management then I would guess Guardiola would have to close to the best.

???? Please explain? What else can you judge the best as? The least succesful? Best as chinning fans? Best at being arrogant? Best at being an alki?
If Guardiola maintains this record for the next 30 years then he would have to be considered up there with Fergie

Well you're counting the most trophies as being the best. Also surely you have to take into account how difficult it was to win said trophies, for example the reason I wouldn't count Guardiola as one of the best is look at his team, he's got most of the best players in the world makes it much easier, however if he continued to do it while bringing through youthful players then he could be put into the discussion.

I would say the number of trophies won is an indication of how successful a manager is if it's at 1 of the bigger/richer clubs. If you look at Moyles at Everton do you say he isn't a good or successful manager because he is at a club who cant compete financially. As for Guardiola at Barcelona he has rebuilt alot of their team since he took over so to say he isn't successful because he has the best players in the world (most of which happen to be spanish) makes no sense whatever. Plus Guardiola has won 10 trophies (apparently the same amount as Cloughs entire career) in 3 seasons.
I'd still have to say that Ferguson is the best ever though as he has won the most trophies in british football history, has rebuilt Man Utd twice, been successful both times and now is starting to rebuild for a third time and unlike Clough he has done it with different assistant managers whereas Clough always worked with Peter Taylor

So in summary I think anyone of a sane mental state agrees its Sir Alex Ferguson

Brady12 wrote:So in summary I think anyone of a sane mental state agrees its Sir Alex Ferguson

I don't think many disagreed with that Brady. Some dared to put alternative names and views forward but you poured scorn over them with your condescending attitude.

FreekShow wrote:

Brady12 wrote:So in summary I think anyone of a sane mental state agrees its Sir Alex Ferguson

I don't think many disagreed with that Brady. Some dared to put alternative names and views forward but you poured scorn over them with your condescending attitude.

Sometimes there's no other way of getting through to these morons

Brady12 wrote:

Derbyblue wrote:

Brady12 wrote:Trophies won by Ferguson 47
Trophies won by Clough 10

There's no comparison
Clough won 2 trophies in his last 10 years as a manager
Ferguson hasnt gone 3 years without winning a trophy in the last 30!!

Ferguson has had a more decorated career that spans longer & in 2 different countries

So you're going to completely ignore my point that there is a difference between the best and most successful? If we were to compare trophies to number of years in management then I would guess Guardiola would have to close to the best.

???? Please explain? What else can you judge the best as? The least succesful? Best as chinning fans? Best at being arrogant? Best at being an alki?
If Guardiola maintains this record for the next 30 years then he would have to be considered up there with Fergie

Point 1) You don't rate Scottish football so Ferguson's achievements at Aberdeen shouldn't really count.
Point 2) Guardiola has won 10 trophies in 3 seasons at Barcelona so in 30 years time it is possible he will win just as many trophies as Ferguson if not more.
Point 3) Ferguson took over at United in '86 and took 6 years to win the title, if he had taken over 10-15 years later would he have been given as much time to win it?
Point 4) Shouldn't any manager be judged on the percentage of games won as an indication of whether he is successful or not?
Point 5) Doesn't it also depend on which club a manager is in charge of? In my opinion Moyes is one of the Premiership's best managers but he hasn't had the success at Everton that Ferguson has had at United.

braveheart101 wrote:Doesn't it also depend on which club a manager is in charge of? In my opinion Moyes is one of the Premiership's best managers but he hasn't had the success at Everton that Ferguson has had at United.

Everything is relative, yet very few ever take this into consideration, Sam Allardyce was laughed at for claiming he'd win trophies in Milan, Madrid etc. but he has a point, in reality a blind deaf moron would still take Barca to first or second in Spain and get them well into the knockout stages of the CL, in the same way Fergie, Mourinho or anybody else would still struggle at truly weak clubs.
This is why extra credence needs to be given to Clough, Robson, Moyes etc., give me a massive club with an giant chequebook and I may not win trophies, but I'd still get the team to very near the top, in this respect try looking beyond medals to see greatness, if Messi, Giggs, Maldini etc. were not in great teams, would they have won anything and before you answer without thinking, look at the medals NOT won by legends from the past, in the days when most players were one-club men?

braveheart101 wrote:

Derbyblue wrote:

Brady12 wrote:

Derbyblue wrote:

Brady12 wrote:Trophies won by Ferguson 47
Trophies won by Clough 10

There's no comparison
Clough won 2 trophies in his last 10 years as a manager
Ferguson hasnt gone 3 years without winning a trophy in the last 30!!

Ferguson has had a more decorated career that spans longer & in 2 different countries

So you're going to completely ignore my point that there is a difference between the best and most successful? If we were to compare trophies to number of years in management then I would guess Guardiola would have to close to the best.

???? Please explain? What else can you judge the best as? The least succesful? Best as chinning fans? Best at being arrogant? Best at being an alki?
If Guardiola maintains this record for the next 30 years then he would have to be considered up there with Fergie

Well you're counting the most trophies as being the best. Also surely you have to take into account how difficult it was to win said trophies, for example the reason I wouldn't count Guardiola as one of the best is look at his team, he's got most of the best players in the world makes it much easier, however if he continued to do it while bringing through youthful players then he could be put into the discussion.

I would say the number of trophies won is an indication of how successful a manager is if it's at 1 of the bigger/richer clubs. If you look at Moyles at Everton do you say he isn't a good or successful manager because he is at a club who cant compete financially. As for Guardiola at Barcelona he has rebuilt alot of their team since he took over so to say he isn't successful because he has the best players in the world (most of which happen to be spanish) makes no sense whatever. Plus Guardiola has won 10 trophies (apparently the same amount as Cloughs entire career) in 3 seasons.
I'd still have to say that Ferguson is the best ever though as he has won the most trophies in british football history, has rebuilt Man Utd twice, been successful both times and now is starting to rebuild for a third time and unlike Clough he has done it with different assistant managers whereas Clough always worked with Peter Taylor

Yes the number of trophies is a sign of success especially for those managers at the bigger or richer clubs, but it shouldn't be most trophies means most successful. Guardiola may have won as many trophies already as Clough (in Brady's mind), but Guardiola manages a team that is almost guaranteed a top 2 finish in it's domestic league where as Clough has taken teams up divisions and managed to have them challenge at the next level.

Derbyblue wrote:Yes the number of trophies is a sign of success especially for those managers at the bigger or richer clubs, but it shouldn't be most trophies means most successful. Guardiola may have won as many trophies already as Clough (in Brady's mind), but Guardiola manages a team that is almost guaranteed a top 2 finish in it's domestic league where as Clough has taken teams up divisions and managed to have them challenge at the next level.

Thats why I said 'if it's at a bigger/richer club'
You could say the same about Ferguson at United, they're pretty much guaranteed a top 2 finish every season as well.
How about going for someone nobody has mentioned yet, Dave Bassett managed to get Wimbledon from the old fourth division into the first division within 4 years. Shame he left a season before they won the FA Cup though.

What about throwing Lester Farrington great man motivator. Won the Stockport Metro 1st Division title 3 years on the spin from under 14's to under 16's in the mid 90's, won the double once & reach back to back cup finals... All without spending a penny

I think Mourinho may end up over shadowing Fergie, Being able to adapt your style to multiple clubs and winning the Champions League with two different clubs before your 50 is probably one of the greatest managers under 50 ever