France New Zealand match / build up

First topic message reminder :

I thought the AB looked a little tired against Japan so it wouldn't surprise me if France won this one if they hit the ground running that is.

from the AB website:
Les Bleus can dominate in the scrum, execute master classes in loose play, run magical lines to weave spells that no team can overcome, and put together periods where no side can match.

They haven't done that for a while!


The All Blacks have won 16 out of 23 games in France.

French team vs All Blacks

Dulin
Fofana
Huget
Fritz
Médard
Tales
Parra

Mas
Kayser
Forest
Maestri,
Pape
Chouly
Lauret
Dusautoir (cap)

Substitutes: Szarzewski, Debaty, Slimani Vahaamahina, Claassen, Doussain, Lopez, Fickou

GloriousEmpire wrote:I've put some money on England to win. Hopefully in the painful unthinkable scenario that feign celebration of triumphant England is required at least it'll keep my heart in it a bit.

There is a norovirus outbreak in Ireland right now. Not messing.

Ha!

Not sure where this leaves us for next week. To win ugly is helpful but I'd rather not have the same sort of match versus England. We are missing something in attack and that follows with Conrad Smiths absence, Bens learning curve at the position, and perhaps Saveas absence, something we take for granted. Piatau is the upside and our defence is fairly stable.

Next week we need to go up a level and we are probably going to have to depend on one or two miracle offloads or plays to get us there. Just glad we get a normal pitch.

Savea should come in and Piutau gets the start with Crotty the back sub. Jane looked good but Piutau just looks hungry and ominous with the ball.

Personally France have done us a great favour. They gave us a great atmosphere and a great game. They showed us it's not like Japan where you can play play badly and still win. England will require another level and that's where the mindset will be in training this week.

yep agree there. Just dont think we're anywhere near the RC levels of either performance or accuracy and that one week isnt going to change that a lot. Like today, individuals are going to have to step up to create those moments.

Hi,Tman Great game,France unlucky not to get the draw,maybe now you`ll listen to this
sad old fart.NEVER underestimate France ANYWHERE,Scrums France Props were packing
on the wedge early on.Glad to see the AB`s fixed it later on Centre is still a problem at
13.Just can`t throw someone in out of position and expect them to perform cost them
RWC SF 2003..

Did anyone else feel a little uncomfortable/have concerns with Carter today? apart from goal kicking that is.

emack2 wrote:Hi,Tman Great game,France unlucky not to get the draw,maybe now you`ll listen to this
sad old fart.NEVER underestimate France ANYWHERE,Scrums France Props were packing
on the wedge early on.Glad to see the AB`s fixed it later on Centre is still a problem at
13.Just can`t throw someone in out of position and expect them  to perform cost them
RWC SF 2003..

sorry Alan, you take that stance every single test we play so it doesnt really mean anything. I like to know what you think will happen, not what has happened or what is remotely possible...theres a difference.. how will you ever predict a thrashing taking that stance every time- yet more often than not thats what we do. So happy to be proved wrong this time if youre prepared to admit being wrong 'most' of the time.

Anyway...not that that matters. I think the team were flat and missing a lot more spark than the RC and we'll get the same next two matches. They'll hype up big time vs England but on the field I dont think theyll match the English motivation..but we'll see.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Did anyone else feel a little uncomfortable/have concerns  with Carter today? apart from goal kicking that is.

yep, felt like that for some time Laurie. I'd rather have had Cruden or Barrett on there. He's not taking the line on enough and I just cant help feeling hes either going to get injured or is wrapped in cotton wool.

emack2 wrote:Hi,Tman Great game,France unlucky not to get the draw,maybe now you`ll listen to this
sad old fart.NEVER underestimate France ANYWHERE,Scrums France Props were packing
on the wedge early on.Glad to see the AB`s fixed it later on Centre is still a problem at
13.Just can`t throw someone in out of position and expect them  to perform cost them
RWC SF 2003..

So Allan what did you think of France in the last scrum? I cant remember the last time I saw a team penalised for hooking the ball back with the hand, the sort of thing some props I played with did..

Pundits are talking about his "lack of game time" but it's not that. He's lost two yards of pace and his awareness is not what it used to be. Cruden/Barrett for me. Let's not be sentimental and turn into Ireland. Let the great man go.

People talked about McCaw and Carter as indispensable players for some time but Conrad Smith's absence is showing he deserves to be among that company. I was impressed by the Fofana / Fritz partnership and overall I felt they outplayed us in all four tests this year. That said, the amount of missed tackles means we miss Smith's skill on defence as well as attack.

The ABs plan to under commit to the ruck and use quick ball. Guerrilla rugby as it's being called is susceptible in the north because:

1. For whatever reason they get away with more at the ruck
2. They're not scared to try to shut the ball off at the source by flooding the breakdown and conceding penalties
3. The pitches are soft and doing anything quickly is nigh impossible
4. Their attack is less ambitious so more often than not the defensive line is organised

I think NZ need to alter the plan at the breakdown. If guys are going to be allowed to thrown themselves head long into the ruck from any angle and wrestle on the ground for the ball and the ref is going to ping the attacker relentlessly rather than a ruck monkey defender then it's never going to be quick.

Question is. Will Joubert stick with this super rugby interpretations or will he be sympathetic to a baying twickenham horde?

Fans outside NZ cringe whenever they hear this talk about DC as though its some form of disrespect or the like. Truth is the injuries cause instability as a squad over time, two glaring examples BOTH the last two world cups when we had to cover for DC (albeit and others as they fell like dominos).

But already we have DC taking a sabbatical so he wont be there for England next year meaning one 10 for England, DC for the RC?? Then the world cup rolls around...? Wheres the continuity?

Taylorman wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Did anyone else feel a little uncomfortable/have concerns  with Carter today? apart from goal kicking that is.

yep, felt like that for some time Laurie. I'd rather have had Cruden or Barrett on there. He's not taking the line on enough and I just cant help feeling hes either going to get injured or is wrapped in cotton wool.

 Your an ex 5/8th T man, I know its a cheap shot to criticise a player at this level for standing too deep, but truely he stood too deep for too long, he was just giving shovel ball to Nonu, he just needs to run and deliver at/after the line, I also felt that it was ahving a compressing effect on Ben Smith. also why was Nonu doing so much kicking? why not have Carter doing those wipers  to give the chasers more angle to attack the ball?

Carter is the senior player out there and he should have been running the cutter, but until I watch a replay specifically watching Carters patterns I felt he looked like a player who was playing his 4th test of the year.....and its November.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:People talked about McCaw and Carter as indispensable players for some time but Conrad Smith's absence is showing he deserves to be among that company. I was impressed by the Fofana / Fritz partnership and overall I felt they outplayed us in all four tests this year. That said, the amount of missed tackles means we miss Smith's skill on defence as well as attack.

Yep. Yep. And yep. Moving Ben smith to center at international level is just wrong. If they want that then get a franchise to play him there. In combination with nonu.

Otherwise take a center and build him. This is a classic All Blacks Achilles heel. Last night we leaked through the centre channel again. For some bizarre reason that's being blamed on nonu.

I think France showed that GE and England definitely showed that last time. We'll see what the weather's like next weekend but the surface should be at least not a problem. I too would like us to revise our breakdown work and commit more players to protect the ball. I've always felt Joubert allows a free for all at ruck time so all the more reason to commit more players there.

Taylorman wrote:Fans outside NZ cringe whenever they hear this talk about DC as though its some form of disrespect or the like. Truth is the injuries cause instability as a squad over time, two glaring examples BOTH the last two world cups when we had to cover for DC (albeit and others as they fell like dominos).

But already we have DC taking a sabbatical so he wont be there for England next year meaning one 10 for England, DC for the RC?? Then the world cup rolls around...? Wheres the continuity?

Neither Mccaw or Carter will be at the next World Cup, Well not as players.

yep thats the cotton wool part Laurie...hes trying to play within himself it seems.

On another note. Did you see Japan push Scotland off the ball at the scrum yesterday and score a try from it? Maybe we don't have to feel so cr&p about our scrum work in Tokyo.

Though again last night there was a case of reputational penalising going on. Scrums are more messy now than under the last set of engagement rules.

dont tell kia that...but in all honesty theyll be there as players if even for the off field stuff, pool games etc but i agree, dont think either will play the knockouts...too long a road to travel I believe and theyve set such high standards it will be others that will be able to reach or surpass them.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:People talked about McCaw and Carter as indispensable players for some time but Conrad Smith's absence is showing he deserves to be among that company. I was impressed by the Fofana / Fritz partnership and overall I felt they outplayed us in all four tests this year. That said, the amount of missed tackles means we miss Smith's skill on defence as well as attack.

Yep. Yep. And yep. Moving Ben smith to center at international level is just wrong. If they want that then get a franchise to play him there. In combination with nonu.

Otherwise take a center and build him. This is a classic All Blacks Achilles heel. Last night we leaked through the centre channel again. For some bizarre reason that's being blamed on nonu.

GE we cant criticise Smith (B that is) if the two players inside him, who are two of the most experienced 1st & 2nd 5/8th in International rugby cant work out to mix up some plays/timimg rather than shovell it to the inexperienced Smith who was continually on collision course with the defence, and didnt have a hellova lot of other options.

GloriousEmpire wrote:On another note. Did you see Japan push Scotland off the ball at the scrum yesterday and score a try from it? Maybe we don't have to feel so cr&p about our scrum work in Tokyo.

Though again last night there was a case of reputational penalising going on. Scrums are more messy now than under the last set of engagement rules.

we never got the Scotland game that I can see- there were a few mind you.

GloriousEmpire wrote:On another note. Did you see Japan push Scotland off the ball at the scrum yesterday and score a try from it? Maybe we don't have to feel so cr&p about our scrum work in Tokyo.

Though again last night there was a case of reputational penalising going on. Scrums are more messy now than under the last set of engagement rules.

Talking of scrums, that ground last night reminded me of those scratchy black and white documentaries on the history channel of the Somme in 1915. in fact it would of been just up the road. but you sure as hell cant scrum on it,new rules, old rules, not even putting it in crooked.

Yep. Same thing in Cardiff.

Despite Brian moore's on air orgasm when Rolland sent off both props, it was a petulant frustrated and desperate call by the ref to sin bin a guy in his first scrum 30 seconds after he came on to the pitch. Just daft desperate silly refereeing.

Although it did make me hoot hysterically that he said "if you two don't want to stay up then you're off and we'll get on two who do!!!" Only to find there were no more props and scrums had to go uncontested for 10. Hilarious stuff.

One thing I thought was a bit odd was NZ (seemingly) encouraging a hit on every scrum. It was like last years rules.

fa0019 wrote:One thing I thought was a bit odd was NZ (seemingly) encouraging a hit on every scrum. It was like last years rules.

what do you mean by encouraging?

Well it seemed that it was NZ who was putting the hit on rather than France that's all.
NZ were getting a instant hit/shove on on contact every scrum well before the ball was in which is why I suggested it was NZ and not France. Under the new rules that's illegal.

NZ looked a bit out of sorts to me, but they did what it takes to get over the line after many people were predicting a 20+ point thrashing of France.

Serious question - has that awesome game at Ellis Park drained NZ emotionally?

Could well be Hound. They've looked off colour ever since. Maybe Twickenham is the next targeted game in the calendar and NZ were caught napping by a French side who didn't make many mistakes last night.

It's extremely difficult to replicate a high as a performance. Wrote a thread on it and when you're two games out from a perfect run, how do you find motivation to pull yourself up to a level that will get you there?

fa0019 wrote:Well it seemed that it was NZ who was putting the hit on rather than France that's all.
NZ were getting a instant hit/shove on on contact every scrum well before the ball was in which is why I suggested it was NZ and not France. Under the new rules that's illegal.

France were stepping back and twisting to make it look like NZ weren't driving straight and were early according to the learned commentators of radiosport.

Yeah, I can also believe that NZ might have had one eye on next weekend. I felt England were the same in the second half against Argentina.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Well it seemed that it was NZ who was putting the hit on rather than France that's all.
NZ were getting a instant hit/shove on on contact every scrum well before the ball was in which is why I suggested it was NZ and not France. Under the new rules that's illegal.

France were stepping back and twisting to make it look like NZ weren't driving straight and were early according to the learned commentators of radiosport.

Ah yes the old step back a 900kg scrum trick!

kia - I've just seen that article. The point about consistency is well made, but for me in any given game you simply need your players to outperform their opposite numbers within the team gameplan.

Do that and you invariably win. NZ were not at their best yesterday, but were better than their opposite numbers when it came to creating and taking chances to score.

If you mean outperform on the scoreboard then I wholeheartedly agree. You can tell yourself all you like we have to watch France and that they have the game to beat us but that is not the same preparation as being written off by the media and everyone thinking you can lose by 20+. France looked the hungrier side in many respects and being 14 points down and still playing for the win suggests that. The problem now for France is that the media will be praising that performance and the expectations of the next match changes completely and so too must the preparation. It's much more difficult to raise the bar when it's gone up a lot rather than being almost dropped to the floor.

fa0019 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Well it seemed that it was NZ who was putting the hit on rather than France that's all.
NZ were getting a instant hit/shove on on contact every scrum well before the ball was in which is why I suggested it was NZ and not France. Under the new rules that's illegal.

France were stepping back and twisting to make it look like NZ weren't driving straight and were early according to the learned commentators of radiosport.

Ah yes the old step back a 900kg scrum trick!

How is that any less believable than a push forward 900kg scrum. If it's coordinated and premeditated then I don't see how that's unbelievable. The point is that just like Australia, NZ were pinged whether they went forward or backwards. The only time NZ got the rub on a scrum call was when a French prop blatantly hooked the ball with his hand...so...

A lot of criticism here of the pitch at SdF and justifiably so - it was a cabbage patch. The people who designed and maintain the pitch at SdF are total morons - only a couple of years ago during the worst winter weather for years in Paris - temps of -17 - the geniuses chose to leave the pitch uncovered for three days before a France-Ireland match with the result that with the stadium full late on a Saturday night (9pm kick-off local time), the match was called off because the pitch was like concrete.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Well it seemed that it was NZ who was putting the hit on rather than France that's all.
NZ were getting a instant hit/shove on on contact every scrum well before the ball was in which is why I suggested it was NZ and not France. Under the new rules that's illegal.

France were stepping back and twisting to make it look like NZ weren't driving straight and were early according to the learned commentators of radiosport.

Ah yes the old step back a 900kg scrum trick!

How is that any less believable than a push forward 900kg scrum. If it's coordinated and premeditated then I don't see how that's unbelievable. The point is that just like Australia, NZ were pinged whether they went forward or backwards. The only time NZ got the rub on a scrum call was when a French prop blatantly hooked the ball with his hand...so...

So what?
It wasnt a prop but the number 8 who did that stupid thing..sight...
The scrum was already lost as the hooker couldnt hook the ball anyway because the nz pack was pushing well a bit early...Ironically this is what you were complaining about last week and yet it was used by the ABs.
Better be used to see Farrell name on the scoreboard next week as the english tight 5 will be looking for your boys.
Very frustrating game to watch here. There was enough room for a win (possession, territory, tackles, metres with ball in hand) but the result was yet another loss against an ok team (good defense within their 22 and the usual 2 flashes of genius in attack) so there is nothing to be proud of. Only positive is that there were no injuries and the ref had an overall good game (need to be mentionned here more often). Pitch is a disgrace but what can you expect from a place which is mainly used for rock or pop gigs.

I thought NZ were awful. I thought defensively they were poor. Missing numerous tackles in the first half. I thought the scrum was suspect. I thought they kicked too much possession away. I thought they went wide too early and were lateral. I thought DC was too deep and offered little apart from shovelling it to Nonu who played like a first five eighths, controlling the game with kicking options and sniping the line. I thought he got annoyed and gave up in true Nonu petulant style after about 20 minutes. The experiment with Ben Smith at 13 doesn't work, and deprives us of Ben Smith at 14 where he is currently a better option than Jane returning from long term injury. I thought NZ under-committed at the ruck, were turned over and then became ruck shy. I thought they were flattered by a few moments of individual genius by Piutau. They need to man up for a big effort next week. Hold possession in the opposition half, build pressure and take the chances engineered rather than the ones that happen by happy chance.

However, I don't think there was much the NZ scrum did wrong that wasn't penalised. France manufactured a lot of line breaks, but were flattered by poor midfield defence. They also failed to convert pressure to points, for which you can be frustrated on their behalf, but not blame anyone other than France.

Agree the pitch was a disgrace and not up to international standard. Is there some suggestion that some unions may allow a sub-standard home pitch as a way of levelling a playing field and negating opposition technical superiority?

Hmmm...didn't manage to catch the game but it seems my reading of what might happen wasn't too far off.

SecretFly wrote:Hmmm...didn't manage to catch the game but it seems my reading of what might happen wasn't too far off.

I can't find the exact post, but I'm sure you said 'At the death, France will definitely mess up the chance to draw by handling in the scrum'.

Burn the witch!

A pitch like that favours no one unless one of the team has a real weak set piece. Appart from building a stadium dedicated to rugby or playing outside paris there is not much that can be done.

Cyril wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Hmmm...didn't manage to catch the game but it seems my reading of what might happen wasn't too far off.

I can't find the exact post, but I'm sure you said 'At the death, France will definitely mess up the chance to draw by handling in the scrum'.

Burn the witch!

It was more the fanatical restatement "It looks like Jane scored but he didn't get it down. It looks like Jane scored but he didn't get it down..." in numerous posts that has me amazed.

?????

Burn me indeed if I said all that lot

emack2 wrote:Hi,Tman Great game,France unlucky not to get the draw,maybe now you`ll listen to this
sad old fart.NEVER underestimate France ANYWHERE,Scrums France Props were packing
on the wedge early on.Glad to see the AB`s fixed it later on Centre is still a problem at
13.Just can`t throw someone in out of position and expect them  to perform cost them
RWC SF 2003..

Apologies Alan...was either a late night or early morning post where I forgot my manners again.

Hope youre back for the England match...love to hear your views!

Cyril wrote:
Burn the witch!

been there, done that.
We need to do that again?

So our only option for someone close to a specialist centre is Ryan Crotty.

So
9 A Smith
10 A Crudon
11 J Savea
12 M Nonu
13 R Crotty
14 C Piatau
15 I Dagg


20 T Kerr-Barlow
21 D Carter (covering 10/12)
22 C Jane (covering the rest with B Smith to 13)

You don't have any room for Ben Smith. It's funny when Jane was injured we had Savea and then it seemed no one else. Then Ben Smith came along and now Piutau has forced his way into the team. Now it seems we have an embarrassment of riches and we can't fit all these players in.

If only the same could happen with the centres. Somebody needs to have a talk with the Super coaches and point out some candidates in the centres and play them there.