All Time Top Ten Heavyweights

Following on from a lot of the conversation in the Lennox Lewis thread, I'd be interested to see what everyones all time top ten heavies are, as opinions on this subject seem to be quite wide ranging. Ta.

Ayup Sugar Boy, hope all is well. Allow me to get the ball rolling.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. Jim Jeffries
6. Lennox Lewis
7. George Foreman (switches back and forth with Lewis all the time)
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Rocky Marciano
10. Sonny Liston

Cheers.

1 Ali
2 Louis
3 Dempsey
4 Jeffries
5 Johnson
6 Marciano
7 Holmes
8 Foreman
9 Lewis
10 Frazier

Sorry shouldve posted mine in the article, am running round like a blue 'arris fly this morning!

Muhammed Ali
Joe Louis
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Larry Holmes
Lennox Lewis
Rocky Marciano 
Jim Jeffries
George Foreman
Sonny Liston

01) Ali
02) Louis
03) Johnson
04) Jeffries
05) Foreman
06) Lewis
07) Marciano
08) Dempsey
09) Holyfield
10) Frazier

Top eight, in strictly chronological order :

Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Foreman, Holmes.

Then a scrap for the final two places among ( again, chronologically, ) Liston, Frazier, Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis.

I haven't counted Tunney as a heavyweight in offering these, but if I had done so he would be among the top ten.

Coem on Windy, man up and put them in order. I have had to do it and have changed my order even since originally posting. If we have to tax the old grey matter no reason you shouldn't

1) Ali
2) Louis
3) Jeffries
4) Holmes
5) Dempsey
6) Johnson
7) Foreman
8) Lewis
9) Marciano
10) Frazier

In addition to Sugar Boy's question, I would be interested to know who is your favourite out of your list. Ali is number 1 on my list in terms of greatness but Louis is my favourite to watch by far. He had such an intimidating look about him when in full flow.

rowley wrote:Coem on Windy, man up and put them in order. I have had to do it and have changed my order even since originally posting. If we have to tax the old grey matter no reason you shouldn't

Okay, jeff.

For the next ten minutes I'd have them so :

Ali ( by the thickness of a cigarette paper )
Louis
Johnson
Dempsey
Foreman
Holmes
Jeffries
Marciano

and a tie for the final two spots among Liston, Tyson and Lewis.

I'll change my mind about the order at least a dozen times today, though.

Solid list Windy, however I may be in the minority if thinking you over-rate Holmes slightly, and would personally have him around 8th. Fairly busy at the moment at work, but hopefully I get chance to explain my reasoning later on.

Fists of Fury wrote:Solid list Windy, however I may be in the minority if thinking you over-rate Holmes slightly, and would personally have him around 8th. Fairly busy at the moment at work, but hopefully I get chance to explain my reasoning later on.

Actually, Fists, I'm glad you pointed that out, since I made a typo. Foreman was meant to be above Holmes on my list. Will edit accordingly.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Solid list Windy, however I may be in the minority if thinking you over-rate Holmes slightly, and would personally have him around 8th. Fairly busy at the moment at work, but hopefully I get chance to explain my reasoning later on.

Actually, Fists, I'm glad you pointed that out, since I made a typo. Foreman was meant to be above Holmes on my list. Will edit accordingly.

Hi Windy, question for you and others who leave Frazier out of the top 10, and by no means a dig as these things are all subjective! I always have trouble leaving Smokin Joe out when I have Ali as number 1 (as do most others by the looks of it). He handed Ali his first loss and went life and death with him in their other two meetings. For me, having Ali at 1 makes it difficult to leave Frazier out seeing as he was the victor in their first clash. Is it the losses to Foreman and struggles with guys like Bonavena that means he misses out on peoples lists?

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Hi Windy, question for you and others who leave Frazier out of the top 10, and by no means a dig as these things are all subjective! I always have trouble leaving Smokin Joe out when I have Ali as number 1 (as do most others by the looks of it). He handed Ali his first loss and went life and death with him in their other two meetings. For me, having Ali at 1 makes it difficult to leave Frazier out seeing as he was the victor in their first clash. Is it the losses to Foreman and struggles with guys like Bonavena that means he misses out on peoples lists?

Could say the same about Norton in that case and doubt many have him near a top 15.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Solid list Windy, however I may be in the minority if thinking you over-rate Holmes slightly, and would personally have him around 8th. Fairly busy at the moment at work, but hopefully I get chance to explain my reasoning later on.

Actually, Fists, I'm glad you pointed that out, since I made a typo. Foreman was meant to be above Holmes on my list. Will edit accordingly.

Hi Windy, question for you and others who leave Frazier out of the top 10, and by no means a dig as these things are all subjective! I always have trouble leaving Smokin Joe out when I have Ali as number 1 (as do most others by the looks of it). He handed Ali his first loss and went life and death with him in their other two meetings. For me, having Ali at 1 makes it difficult to leave Frazier out seeing as he was the victor in their first clash. Is it the losses to Foreman and struggles with guys like Bonavena that means he misses out on peoples lists?

It's no reflection on Frazier, Tino.

A top ten is nigh impossible to do, in my opinion, since margins are so tight and since we rarely allow ' ties, ' although I have at the tail end of my list. First thing I think of when trying to do a top ten is ' Whom do I leave out ? ' as opposed to ' Whom do I put in ? '

Tomorrow, I'll probably replace Liston with Frazier, but I certainly wouldn't kick out any of my top eight to accommodate Smokin' Joe.

Scottrf wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Hi Windy, question for you and others who leave Frazier out of the top 10, and by no means a dig as these things are all subjective! I always have trouble leaving Smokin Joe out when I have Ali as number 1 (as do most others by the looks of it). He handed Ali his first loss and went life and death with him in their other two meetings. For me, having Ali at 1 makes it difficult to leave Frazier out seeing as he was the victor in their first clash. Is it the losses to Foreman and struggles with guys like Bonavena that means he misses out on peoples lists?

Could say the same about Norton in that case and doubt many have him near a top 15.

Fair comment Scott, and it is easy to make arguments why Frazier wouldn't make the list, that much I agree with. Perhaps I am being too simplistic, it was more the fact he took Ali's unbeaten record and that holds enourmous significance with me. I will re-post my list and put Norton in there just to back up my argument!

1 Ali
2 Louis
3== Foreman, Johnson, Holmes, Dempsey
7== Tyson, Marciano, Jeffries, Liston, Frazier, Lewis, Holyfield

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Hi Windy, question for you and others who leave Frazier out of the top 10, and by no means a dig as these things are all subjective! I always have trouble leaving Smokin Joe out when I have Ali as number 1 (as do most others by the looks of it). He handed Ali his first loss and went life and death with him in their other two meetings. For me, having Ali at 1 makes it difficult to leave Frazier out seeing as he was the victor in their first clash. Is it the losses to Foreman and struggles with guys like Bonavena that means he misses out on peoples lists?

Could say the same about Norton in that case and doubt many have him near a top 15.

Fair comment Scott, and it is easy to make arguments why Frazier wouldn't make the list, that much I agree with. Perhaps I am being too simplistic, it was more the fact he took Ali's unbeaten record and that holds enourmous significance with me. I will re-post my list and put Norton in there just to back up my argument!

Well, it's so subjective there isn't really a wrong answer. Depends on your criteria and if you can back it up there's no problem.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Solid list Windy, however I may be in the minority if thinking you over-rate Holmes slightly, and would personally have him around 8th. Fairly busy at the moment at work, but hopefully I get chance to explain my reasoning later on.

Actually, Fists, I'm glad you pointed that out, since I made a typo. Foreman was meant to be above Holmes on my list. Will edit accordingly.

Hi Windy, question for you and others who leave Frazier out of the top 10, and by no means a dig as these things are all subjective! I always have trouble leaving Smokin Joe out when I have Ali as number 1 (as do most others by the looks of it). He handed Ali his first loss and went life and death with him in their other two meetings. For me, having Ali at 1 makes it difficult to leave Frazier out seeing as he was the victor in their first clash. Is it the losses to Foreman and struggles with guys like Bonavena that means he misses out on peoples lists?

Obviously I can't speak for Windy, but since I also don't include Frazier in my top ten and you've alluded to others who don't, I'll put my own reasons forward if that's alright with you, MTWT.

First off, I'll state that Frazier only misses out on my top ten by a fraction. In my eyes, he and Holyfield are tussling between eleventh and twelfth place, and on this day I'm more inclined to have Frazier a nose ahead. And you're absolutely right with your point regarding him beating Ali, which was a genuinely great win.

The problem with Frazier (and I touched upon this last night with a couple of others while putting forward my reasons for Lennox Lewis being a certainty for an all-time top ten spot) is that, underneath that win, his record is firstly lacking a bit of depth. Aside from beating Ali, his championship reign consists of, primarily, Mathis, Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena and Foster. Nothing wrong with that list at all, mind you, but if (like me) you value a series of good wins higher than a single great one in certain circumstances, then Frazier starts to struggle in comparison to a few other top ten contenders.

And while I'm no doubt going to get a kicking for this, I'd also add that the version of Ali which Frazier beat, for me, was not quite Ali at his best. Now before you all start getting worked up, let me say that it was still a genuinely great (not good, great) win for Frazier, particularly considering what Ali went on to achieve in the immediate years afterwards. But I'm not sure if I can see the '71 version of Frazier beating the '64 incarnation of Ali, and Ali's lengthy layoff before their first fight only adds more fuel to that particular fire.

And now the really harsh bit; Frazier was 1-4 against his nearest rivals. Yes, two of those losses were extremely close, but they were still losses at the end of the day. It's a testament to how strong the seventies Heavyweight scene was that a man who was only the third best of it can still be in contention for an all-time top ten spot, but for that 1-4 record is a serious spanner in the works. On top of that, Frazier never met the 'fourth' Heavyweight of that glorious era in Norton, either. Had he done so, his claim to overhaul Liston in my estimations would be a little stronger.

Now let's remember that I rank Foreman 'only' seventh. Given that he demolished Frazier twice, secured a win over Norton and returned with the mother of all comebacks to win the title for a second time in the nineties, it's fair to say that he deserves to rank comfortably (rather than only just) ahead of Smokin' Joe. To put Frazier only a place or two behind Foreman (which in my list would be eighth or ninth) simply wouldn't do justice to how superior Foreman's record is in my eyes, and while Frazier was in the running for tenth spot, I simply think that Liston's superior ability, superb work before winning the title and the fact that he'd have to be a strong favourite against Frazier make him the better candidate for that last place.

Not a lot in it as I say, but for me Frazier's record is just a little too thin to warrant a top ten place.

Liston is an interesting one for me. Like probably a lot of people on here he is a figure I find absolutely fascinating and would dearly love to find a place for him in the top ten. In fact I used to do so but Jimmy makes a compelling argument as to why he perhaps doesn't deserve a place because whilst he did some stellar work pre title his reign is pretty poor. A blowout of Patterson and two losses to Ali. Whilst there is no shame in losing to most peoples one or two heavy the crushing nature of the defeats has to count against him.

However would not go into meltdown over someone having him in the top 10 as he is certainly in the mix with the guys who can go either way, but for me he is just outside at the minute

88Chris05 wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Solid list Windy, however I may be in the minority if thinking you over-rate Holmes slightly, and would personally have him around 8th. Fairly busy at the moment at work, but hopefully I get chance to explain my reasoning later on.

Actually, Fists, I'm glad you pointed that out, since I made a typo. Foreman was meant to be above Holmes on my list. Will edit accordingly.

Hi Windy, question for you and others who leave Frazier out of the top 10, and by no means a dig as these things are all subjective! I always have trouble leaving Smokin Joe out when I have Ali as number 1 (as do most others by the looks of it). He handed Ali his first loss and went life and death with him in their other two meetings. For me, having Ali at 1 makes it difficult to leave Frazier out seeing as he was the victor in their first clash. Is it the losses to Foreman and struggles with guys like Bonavena that means he misses out on peoples lists?

Obviously I can't speak for Windy, but since I also don't include Frazier in my top ten and you've alluded to others who don't, I'll put my own reasons forward if that's alright with you, MTWT.

First off, I'll state that Frazier only misses out on my top ten by a fraction. In my eyes, he and Holyfield are tussling between eleventh and twelfth place, and on this day I'm more inclined to have Frazier a nose ahead. And you're absolutely right with your point regarding him beating Ali, which was a genuinely great win.

The problem with Frazier (and I touched upon this last night with a couple of others while putting forward my reasons for Lennox Lewis being a certainty for an all-time top ten spot) is that, underneath that win, his record is firstly lacking a bit of depth. Aside from beating Ali, his championship reign consists of, primarily, Mathis, Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena and Foster. Nothing wrong with that list at all, mind you, but if (like me) you value a series of good wins higher than a single great one in certain circumstances, then Frazier starts to struggle in comparison to a few other top ten contenders.

And while I'm no doubt going to get a kicking for this, I'd also add that the version of Ali which Frazier beat, for me, was not quite Ali at his best. Now before you all start getting worked up, let me say that it was still a genuinely great (not good, great) win for Frazier, particularly considering what Ali went on to achieve in the immediate years afterwards. But I'm not sure if I can see the '71 version of Frazier beating the '64 incarnation of Ali, and Ali's lengthy layoff before their first fight only adds more fuel to that particular fire.

And now the really harsh bit; Frazier was 1-4 against his nearest rivals. Yes, two of those losses were extremely close, but they were still losses at the end of the day. It's a testament to how strong the seventies Heavyweight scene was that a man who was only the third best of it can still be in contention for an all-time top ten spot, but for that 1-4 record is a serious spanner in the works. On top of that, Frazier never met the 'fourth' Heavyweight of that glorious era in Norton, either. Had he done so, his claim to overhaul Liston in my estimations would be a little stronger.

Now let's remember that I rank Foreman 'only' seventh. Given that he demolished Frazier twice, secured a win over Norton and returned with the mother of all comebacks to win the title for a second time in the nineties, it's fair to say that he deserves to rank comfortably (rather than only just) ahead of Smokin' Joe. To put Frazier only a place or two behind Foreman (which in my list would be eighth or ninth) simply wouldn't do justice to how superior Foreman's record is in my eyes, and while Frazier was in the running for tenth spot, I simply think that Liston's superior ability, superb work before winning the title and the fact that he'd have to be a strong favourite against Frazier make him the better candidate for that last place.

Not a lot in it as I say, but for me Frazier's record is just a little too thin to warrant a top ten place.

Hi Chris, thanks for your comprehensive reply. You make some excellent points and whilst I fully understand where you are coming from, I can't find it in my heart of hearts to leave Joe out. Maybe he wouldn't have beaten the Ali of '64 and your right, his record is patchy in some respects but in my opinion, and it is purely based on his "greatest" night, he deserves inclusion for this reason. Sure, Ali was coming back from his layoff but Joe reached superhuman levels of endurance and guts to win a fight against a truly magnificent foe, even though Ali was a different beast from 1964. Perhaps I am looking back with too much nostalgia on one nights work, but that one nights work is enough to sneak him in for me. Cheers, MTWT.

Mind The Windows Tino: Hi Windy, question for you and others who leave Frazier out of the top 10, and by no means a dig as these things are all subjective! I always have trouble leaving Smokin Joe out when I have Ali as number 1 (as do most others by the looks of it). He handed Ali his first loss and went life and death with him in their other two meetings. For me, having Ali at 1 makes it difficult to leave Frazier out seeing as he was the victor in their first clash. Is it the losses to Foreman and struggles with guys like Bonavena that means he misses out on peoples lists?
---------

Scott has already said it but the obvious comparison is norton, who also went life and death with Ali over 3 fights but cannot get a top ten ranking based on this alone. Fraziers performances against Ali were top drawer, but, like norton you have to assess the rest of his career and although he's clearly a better fighter than ken he still - IMO - has at least ten guys with more ability and better careers ahead of him.

Windy - on what basis do you rate big George above holmes? His destruction of Frazier aside do you think foreman - in either incarnation - did more than a very dominant Holmes who was at one stage 48-0? I happily admit to being a fan of the tall hw with a good jab which is why I've enjoyed watching Larry, bowe and Lewis, but personal preferences aside I still can't rate foreman ahead of either Lewis or holmes.

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:

Windy - on what basis do you rate big George above holmes? His destruction of Frazier aside do you think foreman - in either incarnation - did more than a very dominant Holmes who was at one stage 48-0? I happily admit to being a fan of the tall hw with a good jab which is why I've enjoyed watching Larry, bowe and Lewis, but personal preferences aside I still can't rate foreman ahead of either Lewis or holmes.

Foreman is almost unique among heavies in my opinion, Sugar Boy.

His record as champion is pretty naff, but the destruction of Frazier ( twice, ) is absolutely huge. Top that off with his having cut a swathe through the heavyweight division until being derailed by Ali, and the fact that he is far and away the best exponent of the ' slugger ' style since Jeffries, at the very least, and the fairy tale comeback, and I fail to see how he figures below Holmes, who never unified the title and fought some pretty shoddy opposition when there were better fights out there.

That would be my reasoning, but as I've said many times before, ( and a couple of times at this thread, ) I don't believe it's possible to compile a definitive list, and I'm sure we could each pick holes in every selection offered here.

I refuse to accept Louis is anywhere near Ali....Competition in their careers was miles apart...

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Johnson
4. Foreman
5. Holmes
6. Dempsey
7. Marciano
8. Jeffries
9. Holy
10.Frazier
8.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
9.
10.
8.

American system of counting?

Sorry I changed my list and didn't read back....

It's the Boston way Scotty...Our lucky number is 8.

Two fat ladies...88

Are you talking about your last three in a bed companions..

Na, been a while since I went to Boston.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Are you talking about your last three in a bed companions..

Not your finest work that one, Trussy!

Getting old now Chris.......

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Dempsey
4. Lewis
5. Foreman
6. Holmes
7. Marciano
8. Liston
9. Jeffries
10. Frazier

Changed my mind about 20 times doing the list but going to settle for that in the end, it's always the same 10 fighters but the order changes all the time would add that were his opposition stronger then Vitali would be in contention for a top ten spot, a nightmare for anyone at the weight

No Johnson Atom, as you know my opinions on Jack vary greatly but rare to see him outside the top ten.

Can I ask if this list is in terms of in-ring ability or achievement ie the 10 best heavyweights in history?

Only a fool has no Johnson in the top 5...

Has Dempsey at 3 and no Jack...

Dear oh dear.............

Guess we are all clear on Ali as no 1 then.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I refuse to accept Louis is anywhere near Ali....Competition in their careers was miles apart...

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Johnson
4. Foreman
5. Holmes
6. Dempsey
7. Marciano
8. Jeffries
9. Holy
10.Frazier

truss very similar to mine, just swap lewis for holyfield. something im sure you'll agree with

and dempsey a little higher

my order has probably changed though in the time to post this

The Mighty Atom wrote:1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Dempsey
4. Lewis
5. Foreman
6. Johnson
7. Holmes
8. Marciano
9. Liston
10. Jeffries

Changed my mind about 20 times doing the list but going to settle for that in the end, it's always the same 10 fighters but the order changes all the time would add that were his opposition stronger then Vitali would be in contention for a top ten spot, a nightmare for anyone at the weight

I admit to my error and initially had Johnson in at 5th on the list and with all the chopping and changing merely forgot to put him back in, have edited the list accordingly

The Mighty Atom wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Dempsey
4. Lewis
5. Foreman
6. Johnson
7. Holmes
8. Marciano
9. Liston
10. Jeffries

Changed my mind about 20 times doing the list but going to settle for that in the end, it's always the same 10 fighters but the order changes all the time would add that were his opposition stronger then Vitali would be in contention for a top ten spot, a nightmare for anyone at the weight

I admit to my error and initially had Johnson in at 5th on the list and with all the chopping and changing merely forgot to put him back in, have edited the list accordingly

Also you have Lewis at 4 !!

Quick, quick change it before someone else sees !!

I can see why you'd have Lewis there compelling...He has a case but not quite top 10 for me...

But it wouldn't be a travesty.

Almost as bad as having Tyson in the top ten Bamber

1) Ali
2) Holmes
3) Tyson
4) Louis
5) Johnson
6) Liston
7) Foreman
8.Dempsey
9) Jeffries
10) Pac - with weight stipulations.
11) Frazier

For me these are the best p4p heavyweights (not neccessarily the ATGs.)