Strength in Depth of each nations teams today and looking forward to WC 2015

Add your own countries and discuss. Ill start with Scotland , debate and disagree at your leisure  

notes;-

*1 indicates player who is currently unavailable but will be eligible come wc time.

*2 the messiah sent from almighty

2013 A TEAM                     2013 B TEAM                       2015 WC TEAM

15 Hogg-                                 Horne    -                     Hogg
14 Visser -                              Seymour   -                   Visser
13 Dunbar -                             De Luca  -                    Bennet  
12 Scott  -                              Taylor    -                    Scott
11 Sean Maitland  -                   Lamont  -                     Maitland
10 Jackson  -                           Weir    -                       Jackson
9  Laidlaw -                             Cusiter  -                      Laidlaw

1 Grant   -                                Dickinson     -                Grant
2 Ford   -                                 Mcarthur  -                   Mcarthur
3 Murray   -                              Cross     -                    Cusack * / Nel *
4 Swinson -                              Jonny Gray  -                Swinson                
5 Richie Gray  -                         Hamilton -                    Richie Gray / Jonny Gray
6 Rennie   -                              Barclay   -                    Rennie
7 Brown   -                               Strokosch  -                 Du Preez *               
8 Denton   -                              Beattie   -                    Josh Strauss * / Denton

Meyer is still working on our depth.

1. Beast Mtwarira, Gurthro (weak option in my book), Coenie Oosthuizen, Steven Kitshoff (Has not had a look in yet, very young)

2. Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss, Scarra Ntebeni (poor option)

3. Jannie du Plessis , Lourens Adriaanse, Frans Malherbe

4. Eben Etzebeth, Bakkies, no third option

5. Flip v d Merwe, Pieter Steph du Toir, no third option

6. Frans Louw, Marcel Coetzee, Siya Kolisi

7. Willem Alberts, Arno Botha, no third option as yet.

8. Duane Vermeulen, Pierre Spies, 3rd option still open

9. Fourie du Preez, Ruan Pienaar, 3rd option still open

10. Morne Steyn, Patrick Lambie, Johan Goosen

11. Bryan Habana,

12. Jean de Villiers, Jan Serfontein

13. Jaque Fourie, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan

14. JP Pietersen, Willie Le Roux.

15. Jaco Taute, Zane Kirchner, Gio Aplon

Some positions we still need to look at, lots of young guys which has not had a chance yet, don't know how much further Meyer is going to look. He seems content with two players in most positions as some players have utility value in the backs.

Habana still firing by then do you think ? I'm not actually sure how old he is, just feels like hes been around for ever

England's strength in depth is pretty good - perhaps second only to the ABs in every position except centre. The challenge is giving enough guys enough experience when even the statting XV has fewer caps than most nations' benches.

1. Corbisiero (if we can manage his knee problems), M Vunipola, Marler, Mullan
2. Hartley, Youngs, Webber, then probably Buchanan
3. Cole, Wilson... then a bit of a gap to the likes of Wood and PDJ
4. Launchbury, Attwood, Slater
5. Lawes, Parling, Kitchener, Robson - possible that Matthews or that giant from Exeter will break in
6. Wood, Croft, Johnson, Clark, Kruis
7. Robshaw, Kvesic, possible that Saull, Wallace or Fraser will step up
8. B Vunipola, B Morgan... erm, Waldrom, Haskell... Crane and then a bit of a gap. Clifford has huge potential but I think he's more a candidate for 2019 than 2015. In extremis, Easter shows no sign of stopping any time soon...
9. Youngs, Dickson, Care then maybe Simpson
10. Farrell, Flood, Burns, Ford
12. Twelvetrees, Barritt, Eastmond?, Allen
13. Tuilagi, Tomkins, Daly, May possibly Lowe if he recovers from his neck injury
15. Brown, Foden, Goode
Wings - plenty of options, the question is combinations - Yarde, Wade, Ashton, Strettle, May etc

Quite a lot of potential, just not much time to work out who can hack it and who works well with whom. That said, Lancaster has a stated intent of developing for 2019 as well so that, like the ABs, we can continually refresh the squad without ever having to rebuild from scratch. Time is short for 2015, but I'm quite excited about what the squad could look like in 2019.

If, a big IF, you dont get out the group stages in your own world cup, will Lancaster still be there for 2019 ?

munkian wrote:If, a big IF, you dont get out the group stages in your own world cup, will Lancaster still be there for 2019 ?

To be honest I can see Aus beating Wales, England beating Aus, and Wales beating England, I think all three teams will win their other games leaving us all level on points.
The only fair thing to do in that situation is to go by alphabetical order


To be fair I think England is beginning to look very strong in terms of depth.

Scrumpy wrote:

munkian wrote:If, a big IF, you dont get out the group stages in your own world cup, will Lancaster still be there for 2019 ?

To be honest I can see Aus beating Wales, England beating Aus, and Wales beating England, I think all three teams will win their other games leaving us all level on points.
The only fair thing to do in that situation is to go by alphabetical order


To be fair I think England is beginning to look very strong in terms of depth.

Its not really been tested yet though has it ? You'd have to be down a few in the 6 Nations for it to be tested properly I think.

We dont have much strength in Depth.

Not bad in the forwards...but in the backs we simply have a large number of untested youngsters, and thats not strength in depth.

Our backs look shambolic...how can that be strength in depth.

Bakkies will be 36 and Jean De Villiers will be 34 which could be pushing it a bit and both key players ?

GeordieFalcon wrote:We dont have much strength in Depth.

Not bad in the forwards...but in the backs we simply have a large number of untested youngsters, and thats not strength in depth.

Our backs look shambolic...how can that be strength in depth.

But you can win games with your forwards as long as the backs defend well.
We have a lot of talented guys in the backs we just need them to start getting game time. Eastmond and Manu could work very well imo.

Biltong wrote:Meyer is still working on our depth.

1. Beast Mtwarira, Gurthro (weak option in my book), Coenie Oosthuizen, Steven Kitshoff (Has not had a look in yet, very young)

2. Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss, Scarra Ntebeni (poor option)

3. Jannie du Plessis , Lourens Adriaanse, Frans Malherbe

4. Eben Etzebeth, Bakkies, no third option

5. Flip v d Merwe, Pieter Steph du Toir, no third option

6. Frans Louw, Marcel Coetzee, Siya Kolisi

7. Willem Alberts, Arno Botha, no third option as yet.

8. Duane Vermeulen, Pierre Spies, 3rd option still open

9. Fourie du Preez, Ruan Pienaar, 3rd option still open

10. Morne Steyn, Patrick Lambie, Johan Goosen

11. Bryan Habana,

12. Jean de Villiers, Jan Serfontein

13. Jaque Fourie, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan

14. JP Pietersen, Willie Le Roux.

15. Jaco Taute, Zane Kirchner, Gio Aplon

Some positions we still need to look at, lots of young guys which has not had a chance yet, don't know how much further Meyer is going to look. He seems content with two players in most positions as some players have utility value in the backs.

What position concerns you most?

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:Meyer is still working on our depth.

1. Beast Mtwarira, Gurthro (weak option in my book), Coenie Oosthuizen, Steven Kitshoff (Has not had a look in yet, very young)

2. Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss, Scarra Ntebeni (poor option)

3. Jannie du Plessis , Lourens Adriaanse, Frans Malherbe

4. Eben Etzebeth, Bakkies, no third option

5. Flip v d Merwe, Pieter Steph du Toir, no third option

6. Frans Louw, Marcel Coetzee, Siya Kolisi

7. Willem Alberts, Arno Botha, no third option as yet.

8. Duane Vermeulen, Pierre Spies, 3rd option still open

9. Fourie du Preez, Ruan Pienaar, 3rd option still open

10. Morne Steyn, Patrick Lambie, Johan Goosen

11. Bryan Habana,

12. Jean de Villiers, Jan Serfontein

13. Jaque Fourie, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan

14. JP Pietersen, Willie Le Roux.

15. Jaco Taute, Zane Kirchner, Gio Aplon

Some positions we still need to look at, lots of young guys which has not had a chance yet, don't know how much further Meyer is going to look. He seems content with two players in most positions as some players have utility value in the backs.

What position concerns you most?

The forwards I am not worried about.

There is plenty talent, and when you consider he will likely take about 18 forwards.

There are still a couple of youngster in the front row that I would like to see get tested before then.

My squad.

1. Beast, Coenie, Kitshoff
2. Bismarck, Adriaan
3. Malherbe, Jannie, Adriaanse
4. Etzebeth, Lood de Jager
5. Flip, Pieter Steph du Toit
6. Kolisi, Louw
7. Alberts, Lappies Labuschagne
8. Vermeulen, Arno Botha
9. Fourie du Preez, and one of four youngsters to be tested, Van Zyl, Reinach, Pretorius
10. Steyn, Goosen
11. Habana, Hougaard
12. Jean, Jan Serfontein
13. Jaque Fourie, Paul Jordaan
14. JJ Engelbrecht, JP Pietersen
15. Frans Steyn, Willie le Roux

Lambie as my utility back

This is so far who I believe must go.

GeordieFalcon wrote:We dont have much strength in Depth.

Not bad in the forwards...but in the backs we simply have a large number of untested youngsters, and thats not strength in depth.

Our backs look shambolic...how can that be strength in depth.

Exactly, its not TESTED strength in depth, I could reel off a load of our decent young regional/U20s players but thats not a gurantee of international standard backup.

For England, front row looks good - we have at least 2 international class players in each position.

2nd row we have 4 or 5 good players available, just need to work out the ideal combination.

No 8 suddenly looks pretty strong with Morgan and Billy V.

Not so convinced on the flanks - Robshaw and Wood are a good pairing, but Kvesic hasn't really proven himself yet as the next #7, and Croft is near-permanently injured, so the other options are either Haskell (a decent versatile back rower, but perhaps a bit of a jack of all trades, master of none), Johnson who isn't quite good enough or some of the unproven youngsers.

Backs I think we are pretty good at 9, 10 and 15, but the 3/4 line is really all up in the air with the exception of Manu at 13 when fit.

Ireland

1 Healy, McGrath, Court, Kilcoyne
2 Best, Cronin, Sherry, Strauss
3 Ross, Fitzpatrick, Moore, Archer
4 Henderson, McCarthy, Tuohy, DOC
5 POC, Ryan, Toner
6 POM, McLoughlin, Ferris
7 SOB, Henry, O'Donnell, Jennings
8 Heaslip,

9 Murray, Reddan, Marmion
10 Sexton, Jackson, Madigan, Hanrahan
11 Earls, Zebo, Fitzgerald, Trimble
12 Marshall, D'Arcy, Olding, McSharry
13 BOD, Henshaw, Cave, Griffin
14 Bowe, McFadden, D Kearney
15 R Kearney


Ireland is building up some depth but many of the players listed above won't be getting many games under Schmidt eg DOC, Cave, McSharry, Jennings, Trimble.


Ireland will see plenty of changes between now and the world cup with a few outsiders also making the breakthrough.

Don't forget Payne will be IQ for the WC

profitius wrote:Ireland

1 Healy, McGrath, Court, Kilcoyne
2 Best, Cronin, Sherry, Strauss
3 Ross, Fitzpatrick, Moore, Archer
4 Henderson, McCarthy, Tuohy, DOC
5 POC, Ryan, Toner
6 POM, McLoughlin, Ferris
7 SOB, Henry, O'Donnell, Jennings
8 Heaslip,

9 Murray, Reddan, Marmion
10 Sexton, Jackson, Madigan, Hanrahan
11 Earls, Zebo, Fitzgerald, Trimble
12 Marshall, D'Arcy, Olding, McSharry
13 BOD, Henshaw, Cave, Griffin
14 Bowe, McFadden, D Kearney
15 R Kearney


Ireland is building up some depth but many of the players listed above won't be getting many games under Schmidt eg DOC, Cave, McSharry, Jennings, Trimble.


Ireland will see plenty of changes between now and the world cup with a few outsiders also making the breakthrough.

How many of those have played international rugby?

At least 3/4 of them probably more.

Considering that a lot of Boks play in Europe there's a great amount of class rugby players coming out of SA. Anyone else think them and NZ will be pretty untouchable now and up to 2015?

Biltong wrote:Meyer is still working on our depth.

1. Beast Mtwarira, Gurthro (weak option in my book), Coenie Oosthuizen, Steven Kitshoff (Has not had a look in yet, very young)

2. Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss, Scarra Ntebeni (poor option)

3. Jannie du Plessis , Lourens Adriaanse, Frans Malherbe

4. Eben Etzebeth, Bakkies, no third option

5. Flip v d Merwe, Pieter Steph du Toir, no third option

6. Frans Louw, Marcel Coetzee, Siya Kolisi

7. Willem Alberts, Arno Botha, no third option as yet.

8. Duane Vermeulen, Pierre Spies, 3rd option still open

9. Fourie du Preez, Ruan Pienaar, 3rd option still open

10. Morne Steyn, Patrick Lambie, Johan Goosen

11. Bryan Habana,

12. Jean de Villiers, Jan Serfontein

13. Jaque Fourie, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan

14. JP Pietersen, Willie Le Roux.

15. Jaco Taute, Zane Kirchner, Gio Aplon

Some positions we still need to look at, lots of young guys which has not had a chance yet, don't know how much further Meyer is going to look. He seems content with two players in most positions as some players have utility value in the backs.

Seeming to forget a few players Biltong , actually more than a few

1. Beast Mtwarira, Gurthro (weak option in my book), Coenie Oosthuizen, Steven Kitshoff (Has not had a look in yet, very young)

2. Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss, Scarra Ntebeni (poor option)

3. Jannie du Plessis , Lourens Adriaanse, Frans Malherbe

4. Eben Etzebeth, Bakkies, no third option

5. Flip v d Merwe, Pieter Steph du Toir, Werner Kruger

6. Frans Louw, Marcel Coetzee, Siya Kolisi

7. Willem Alberts, Arno Botha, Schalk Burger

8. Duane Vermeulen, Pierre Spies, Arno Botha - Really the heir apparent to Spies even at the Bulls

9.b] Francois Hougaard[/b] (prior to injury the starting Bok 9) Fourie du Preez, Ruan Pienaar,[

10. Morne Steyn, Patrick Lambie, Johan Goosen

11. Bryan Habana, Bjorn Basson ,

12. Jean de Villiers, Jan Serfontein , Francois Steyn - He's going to have to fit somewhere seeing as he's the only other Back awarded a contract

13. Jaque Fourie, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan

14. JP Pietersen, Willie Le Roux.

15. Jaco Taute, Zane Kirchner, Gio Aplon

for England:

LH: Corbs, Vunipola, Marler. Nowt wrong with those three.
HK: Hartley, Youngs. Webber looked like decent back-up in Arg but still unproven at the highest level.
TH: Cole, Wilson. Both good international level props, but not much afterwards.

Second row: Lawes, Launchberry, Parling have all shown they're upto international level. Attwood in a similar situation to Webber. A few others look like good options but no international experience.

Flankers: a bit of a problem here, Wood and Robshaw are fine players, but behind them you have Croft (often injured), Haskell (never really fulfilled his promise), Johnson (hard worker but maybe a notch below international standard) and no one else with international experience. Again, plenty of promise, but I don't like sticking lists of players on this sort of thread and proclaiming it "strength in depth".

N°8: Morgan and Vunipola. Fine as long as neither gets injured (no back-up with experience, other than Easter, and that ship has sailed).

SH: Care, Youngs, Dickson. Happy with that, three quite different players.

FH: Farrell, Flood. Both international standard players. Back-ups look good (Burns, Ford) but no experience.

Wings: plenty of options there, Ashton has been playing well for Sarries and I thought had a decent game against Arg. Wade and Yarde are exciting prospects of inexperienced. Then you have Strettle, May, etc. (plus of course the FBs who cover wing).

Centres: possibly England's biggest problem. Manu, no probs. But then you have Twelvetrees (a bit hit-and-miss so far), Barritt (solid but unspectacular), and the rest while they are options (and promising ones at that) have no international experience really to speak of.

FB: no probs here, Brown and Foden are fine players, and I still think Goode is underrated by many on here.

Overall, I would say we have strength in depth in the following positions:
Front row, Second row, Half-backs, Full back.

Decent enough:
N°8, Wings.

Potential problem positions:
Flankers, Centres.

for Wales see Cardiff hospital list

Bullsbok wrote:

Biltong wrote:Meyer is still working on our depth.

1. Beast Mtwarira, Gurthro (weak option in my book), Coenie Oosthuizen, Steven Kitshoff (Has not had a look in yet, very young)

2. Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss, Scarra Ntebeni (poor option)

3. Jannie du Plessis , Lourens Adriaanse, Frans Malherbe

4. Eben Etzebeth, Bakkies, no third option

5. Flip v d Merwe, Pieter Steph du Toir, no third option

6. Frans Louw, Marcel Coetzee, Siya Kolisi

7. Willem Alberts, Arno Botha, no third option as yet.

8. Duane Vermeulen, Pierre Spies, 3rd option still open

9. Fourie du Preez, Ruan Pienaar, 3rd option still open

10. Morne Steyn, Patrick Lambie, Johan Goosen

11. Bryan Habana,

12. Jean de Villiers, Jan Serfontein

13. Jaque Fourie, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan

14. JP Pietersen, Willie Le Roux.

15. Jaco Taute, Zane Kirchner, Gio Aplon

Some positions we still need to look at, lots of young guys which has not had a chance yet, don't know how much further Meyer is going to look. He seems content with two players in most positions as some players have utility value in the backs.

Seeming to forget a few players Biltong , actually more than a few

1. Beast Mtwarira, Gurthro (weak option in my book), Coenie Oosthuizen, Steven Kitshoff (Has not had a look in yet, very young)

2. Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss, Scarra Ntebeni (poor option)

3. Jannie du Plessis , Lourens Adriaanse, Frans Malherbe

4. Eben Etzebeth, Bakkies, no third option

5. Flip v d Merwe, Pieter Steph du Toir, Werner Kruger

6. Frans Louw, Marcel Coetzee, Siya Kolisi

7. Willem Alberts, Arno Botha, Schalk Burger

8. Duane Vermeulen, Pierre Spies, Arno Botha - Really the heir apparent to Spies even at the Bulls

9.b] Francois Hougaard[/b] (prior to injury the starting Bok 9)  Fourie du Preez, Ruan Pienaar,[

10. Morne Steyn, Patrick Lambie, Johan Goosen

11. Bryan Habana, Bjorn Basson ,

12. Jean de Villiers, Jan Serfontein , Francois Steyn - He's going to have to fit somewhere seeing as he's the only other Back awarded a contract

13. Jaque Fourie, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan

14. JP Pietersen, Willie Le Roux.

15. Jaco Taute, Zane Kirchner, Gio Aplon

Werner Kruger is KAK.
Schalk Burger is unlikely to get back to the form he was in. As much as we wish it, it is unlikely.
Go Arno, Got Hougaard on wing, got Frans at 15.

Biltong wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

Biltong wrote:Meyer is still working on our depth.

1. Beast Mtwarira, Gurthro (weak option in my book), Coenie Oosthuizen, Steven Kitshoff (Has not had a look in yet, very young)

2. Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss, Scarra Ntebeni (poor option)

3. Jannie du Plessis , Lourens Adriaanse, Frans Malherbe

4. Eben Etzebeth, Bakkies, no third option

5. Flip v d Merwe, Pieter Steph du Toir, no third option

6. Frans Louw, Marcel Coetzee, Siya Kolisi

7. Willem Alberts, Arno Botha, no third option as yet.

8. Duane Vermeulen, Pierre Spies, 3rd option still open

9. Fourie du Preez, Ruan Pienaar, 3rd option still open

10. Morne Steyn, Patrick Lambie, Johan Goosen

11. Bryan Habana,

12. Jean de Villiers, Jan Serfontein

13. Jaque Fourie, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan

14. JP Pietersen, Willie Le Roux.

15. Jaco Taute, Zane Kirchner, Gio Aplon

Some positions we still need to look at, lots of young guys which has not had a chance yet, don't know how much further Meyer is going to look. He seems content with two players in most positions as some players have utility value in the backs.

Seeming to forget a few players Biltong , actually more than a few

1. Beast Mtwarira, Gurthro (weak option in my book), Coenie Oosthuizen, Steven Kitshoff (Has not had a look in yet, very young)

2. Bismarck du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss, Scarra Ntebeni (poor option)

3. Jannie du Plessis , Lourens Adriaanse, Frans Malherbe

4. Eben Etzebeth, Bakkies, no third option

5. Flip v d Merwe, Pieter Steph du Toir, Werner Kruger

6. Frans Louw, Marcel Coetzee, Siya Kolisi

7. Willem Alberts, Arno Botha, Schalk Burger

8. Duane Vermeulen, Pierre Spies, Arno Botha - Really the heir apparent to Spies even at the Bulls

9.b] Francois Hougaard[/b] (prior to injury the starting Bok 9)  Fourie du Preez, Ruan Pienaar,[

10. Morne Steyn, Patrick Lambie, Johan Goosen

11. Bryan Habana, Bjorn Basson ,

12. Jean de Villiers, Jan Serfontein , Francois Steyn - He's going to have to fit somewhere seeing as he's the only other Back awarded a contract

13. Jaque Fourie, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan

14. JP Pietersen, Willie Le Roux.

15. Jaco Taute, Zane Kirchner, Gio Aplon

Werner Kruger is KAK.
Schalk Burger is unlikely to get back to the form he was in. As much as we wish it, it is unlikely.
Go Arno, Got Hougaard on wing, got Frans at 15.

Dno why i put Kruger at lock:shock:  http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/details/meyer-leaves-door-open-for-burger Judging from interviews with Heyeneke its clear Burger will play a part ,

Question for NZ is who survives from Hore, Mealamu, Woodcock, McCaw, Carter, Conrad Smith, Jane and Nonu?

Can we count on SBW and will Kaino come back into contention.

Front row is concern and centre.

Crockett, Afeaki, Coles, Faumuina, Franks brothers
Whitelock, Romano, Retallick, Thrush or Bird
Kaino, Luatua, Messam, Cane, Read
Smith, TKB, Perenara
Cruden, Barrett
Crotty, Saili ?
Smith, Dagg, Savea, Piutau

Two years to unearth a specialist lock, hooker, 8, centre combination. Options there but question marks certainly. Veterans add a lot if they can play but CAN is the operative word. Great if they can but the talent and depth is mainly there and tried and tested already. Two years to concentrate on problem areas is enough. Two years since the 2011 RWC has seen a lot of new faces who are mainly not only comfortable at test level but performing well there.

That's real, in every sense of the word, depth. Also there are a couple of real problems with depth at this point in time. Who doesn't have that though!

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Question for NZ is who survives from Hore, Mealamu, Woodcock, McCaw, Carter, Conrad Smith, Jane and Nonu?

Can we count on SBW and will Kaino come back into contention.

Front row is concern and centre.

Crockett, Afeaki, Coles, Faumuina, Franks brothers
Whitelock, Romano, Retallick, Thrush or Bird
Kaino, Luatua, Messam, Cane, Read
Smith, TKB, Perenara
Cruden, Barrett
Crotty, Saili  ?
Smith, Dagg, Savea, Piutau

Two years to unearth a specialist lock, hooker, 8, centre combination. Options there but question marks certainly. Veterans add a lot if they can play but CAN is the operative word. Great if they can but the talent and depth is mainly there and tried and tested already. Two years to concentrate on problem areas is enough. Two years since the 2011 RWC has seen a lot of new faces who are mainly not only comfortable at test level but performing well there.

That's real, in every sense of the word, depth. Also there are a couple of real problems with depth at this point in time. Who doesn't have that though!

Tee hee!  

GeordieFalcon wrote:We dont have much strength in Depth.

Not bad in the forwards...but in the backs we simply have a large number of untested youngsters, and thats not strength in depth.

Our backs look shambolic...how can that be strength in depth.

Agree with that marra.

The only strength in depth I can see are in the front row, although loose head can be a little vulnerable after Corbs.

Second row is STARTING to develop depth. People should remember that despite his gung ho displays Launchbury only has 12 caps, Lawes has spent the last couple of years being broken on and off and Dave Attwood is virtually untested at international level.

I’m fairly happy with the flanks though. Wood, Robshaw, Haskell, Croft (when fit) and Johnson have all shown they can cope with international rugby and there are a number of younger guys such as Will Fraser (who although untested) I think are ready for the test arena.

I’m not that secure about no.8. We’ve got Morgan who can run hot and cold and Billy Vunipola who is very inexperienced. Not to mention Morgan’s propensity to get injured and that both seem to struggle to last the full 80. Don’t forget that we appear to be one injury away from Wood covering this position too. Then it’s who Crane? Waldrom? I know people are interest in Ewers, but the fact remains that he might not actually want to play for us.

Scrum half is a position of depth.

So is FH, the first three choices are competitive and there is incoming competition from the like Ford, Cipriani (possibly) and Slade.

Don’t get me started on the centres or wings.

Finally fullback is a position of strength. Aside from Brown, Foden and Goode I think there is a long term plan to get Anthony Watson/ Elliott Daly into place.

Here is the rub, I know it all sounds doom and gloom, but it is NOT. Lancaster has clearly shown that he is thinking about depth and he is putting things in place to achieve this. It is a good start, but that is all it is at the moment

Could've been worse ASBO. Could've been Thrush or Richard Chlamydia or Johnny Herpes. Those two thankfully have been labelled destructive players and stricken from the squad. Makes you wonder though what Quade Hooper was going on about with his toxic environment comment.

England no.8 Waldrom is done. Crane - its not impossible but unlikely. Ewers/ Dickinson much more likely. Ewers it must just be about if he wants to play international rugby or not.

Billy does seem to be improving a lot, but a fit Morgan must be first choice for now

Isn't Marler poopie though ? And Mako/Corbs seem a bit injury prone. Anyone else in the pipe line ?

ok will do bold to show uncapped players and italics to show capped players but little experience

1. Jenkins, James, Gill, Bevington, Rob Evans
2. Hibbard, Owens, Rees? Phillps
3. Jones, Andrews , Rhodri Jones, Mitchell, Jarvis Lee (james can also cover)
4/5) Davies, Charteris, AWJ, Coombes, Evans, Ball
6) Lydiate, Shingler, jones, Turnball, Mccusker  
7) Warburton, Tipuric, Navidi
8) Faletau
9) Phillips, Williams Williams, Davies, Rees, Knoyle
10) Priestland, Biggar, Patchell, Hook
12) JR, Williams, Beck, Allen
13) JD2, Williams
11/14) North, Cuthbert, Walker, Williams, Prydie, J. Williams, Amos
15) Halfpenny, Byrne

Firstly this doesn't take into account utility players or players who can move around
looking at the squad we seem to have a lot of depth/ potential depth, we have a brilliant first 23 and then the quality drops.
We have lots of Potential players to make the step up but they are no way proven.
Areas we need to strengthen and give experience too is 2,8,9,13.
Certainly not in a bad place now but a few players questionable whether they will make it to the WC, such as Ryan Jones and maybe Phillips (Byrne also highly unlikely)

Welshy, why have you named all our 'available' players? I doubt Bevington, Rh.Jones Turnbull, McCusker and Knoyle will be there because they aren't good enough. Do we know whether senior players like Jenkins, Jones, Rees, R.Jones, Phillips and Byrne will be fit and not retired?

Munkian

I wouldn't go that far re Marler - ok, he got owned in the 6Ns against Adam Jones, but outside of that game he has stood up reasonably well at international level when called upon. Not bad for the 3rd choice . I wish we had equally good third choice options in all positions. As it stands, I'd say we only have that at 9, 10, 15 and perhaps hooker (Webber is less proven at Test level, but has the potential).

welshy824 (new) wrote:ok will do bold to show uncapped players and italics to show capped players but little experience

1. Jenkins, James, Gill, Bevington, Rob Evans
2. Hibbard, Owens, Rees? Phillps
3. Jones, Andrews , Rhodri Jones, Mitchell, Jarvis Lee (james can also cover)
4/5) Davies, Charteris, AWJ, Coombes, Evans, Ball
6) Lydiate, Shingler, jones, Turnball, Mccusker  
7) Warburton, Tipuric, Navidi
8) Faletau
9) Phillips, Williams Williams, Davies, Rees, Knoyle
10) Priestland, Biggar, Patchell, Hook
12) JR, Williams, Beck, Allen
13) JD2, Williams
11/14) North, Cuthbert, Walker, Williams, Prydie, J. Williams, Amos
15) Halfpenny, Byrne

Firstly this doesn't take into account utility players or players who can move around
looking at the squad we seem to have a lot of depth/ potential depth, we have a brilliant first 23 and then the quality drops.
We have lots of Potential players to make the step up but they are no way proven.
Areas we need to strengthen and give experience too is 2,8,9,13.
Certainly not in a bad place now but a few players questionable whether they will make it to the WC, such as Ryan Jones and maybe Phillips (Byrne also highly unlikely)

Looking at that list, I would say:
LH is fine, two good players, two more solid players, no worries there.
HK is OK, but a worry if one gets injured.
TH seems a little inexperienced behind Jones.
Locks look in fine shape, the first five guys on that list are all good players (some of course more than that)
Flankers are fine.
There seems to be a lack of experience behind Faletau at n°8 (presume Jones would cover there?)
9 is a problem in that there doesn't seem to be anyone who's rubber-stamped his place in the squad behind Phillips.
FH is OK, some solid options if nothing outstanding.
Wings are fine if a little inexperienced.
Centres are a bit of a concern, not much experience behind the main two at the moment.
FB is fine (think Williams plays FB generally?)

I would have said the main concerns are TH prop, n°8, SH and Centres in terms of depth (not the starting XV obv.), would that be a fair comment?

welshy824 (new) wrote:ok will do bold to show uncapped players and italics to show capped players but little experience

1. Jenkins, James, Gill, Bevington, Rob Evans
2. Hibbard, Owens, Rees? Phillps
3. Jones, Andrews , Rhodri Jones, Mitchell, Jarvis Lee (james can also cover)
4/5) Davies, Charteris, AWJ, Coombes, Evans, Ball
6) Lydiate, Shingler, jones, Turnball, Mccusker  
7) Warburton, Tipuric, Navidi
8) Faletau
9) Phillips, Williams Williams, Davies, Rees, Knoyle
10) Priestland, Biggar, Patchell, Hook
12) JR, Williams, Beck, Allen
13) JD2, Williams
11/14) North, Cuthbert, Walker, Williams, Prydie, J. Williams, Amos
15) Halfpenny, Byrne

Firstly this doesn't take into account utility players or players who can move around
looking at the squad we seem to have a lot of depth/ potential depth, we have a brilliant first 23 and then the quality drops.
We have lots of Potential players to make the step up but they are no way proven.
Areas we need to strengthen and give experience too is 2,8,9,13.
Certainly not in a bad place now but a few players questionable whether they will make it to the WC, such as Ryan Jones and maybe Phillips (Byrne also highly unlikely)

Missing some Dragons there

Lewis Evans and Nic Cudd are two classy backrow options - better than Turnball and Mccusker any day.

Screech is a potential lock option as well.

You also have Jack Dixon and Leach in the centre and Dan Evans at Fullback

Oh, and Wayne Evans, Rees at 9

I realised I forgot a few! yes Lewis Evans should certainly be ahead of Mccusker, Turnball to be fair hasn't been doing a bad job at 8 for the scarlets! Cudd I haven't seen enough of, and likewise screech and leach
Dixon is certainly another option (forgot about him due to being injured) and Dan Evans isint a bad player either

Infact, all of the Turks we've had over have become fairly solid players

People typically list every player they have ever heard of in these lists, so I am trying something different. I am only listing players who genuinely may be at WC 2015. Also, colour coded:

World Class (top 3 in position) in Black
International Class in Blue.
Untested at international level in Green (needs at least 10 caps against decent opposition)

1 Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne
2 Best, Cronin, Sherry, Strauss
3 Ross, Fitzpatrick, Moore, Archer
4 Henderson, McCarthy, Tuohy,
5 POC, Ryan, Toner
6 SOB, POM
7 Henry, O'Donnell,
8 Heaslip,

9 Murray, Reddan, Marmion
10 Sexton, Jackson, Madigan, Hanrahan
11 Earls, Zebo, Fitzgerald, Trimble
12 Marshall, Olding,
13 Paine, Henshaw, Griffin
14 Bowe, McFadden, D Kearney
15 R Kearney

Looking at this, our forwards, and centres are most worrying. Alot of great potential, and Joe Schmidt's task is to move those greens into blues over the next two years. And maybe even find a few blacks.

Wales struggle at a few options. Italics are uncapped/untested

Front row:
Jenkins, James, Gill, Hibbard, Owens, Jones, Lee, R.Jones

Second row:
AWJ, Evans, Davies, Charteris

Back row:
Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau, Tipuric, Jones, Navidi, L.Evans, Coombes, Turnbull

Flyhalf:
Biggar, Priestland, Patchell, Tovey

Scrumhalf:
Phillips, Ll.Williams, R Williams, G.Davies, Knoyle, Webb, J.Evans

Centres:
Davies, Roberts, Scott Williams, Owen Williams, Allen, Beck, Dixon

Wings:
North, Cuthbert, Walker, Amos

Fullback:
Halfpenny, Williams, Prydie

Utility players:
Hook, Jordan Williams

What size of squad do we talk about for a RWC? 32? Scratch Madigan or JJ from below. I could only see us bringing one of them

LH 
Healy, McGrath, Cronin 

Hooker 
Best, Strauss, Sherry

TH
Moore, Fitz, Furlong

Locks
POC, Toner, Henderson, ?

Backrow
O'Brien, Heaslip, O'Mahoney, O'Donnell, Henry

Scrumhalf 
Murray, Marmion, ?


Flyhalf 
Sexton, Jackson, JJ


Centres
Marshall, Payne, Madigan, Olding, Henshaw


Outside backs
Kearney, Bowe, Zebo, McFadden

I think we have a very strong first team, a descent second team but after that nothing really:These are what i see to be our best first and second teams (when bluddy fit) and future 2015 WC team.

Team A/                           Team B/                                2015 WC team
1. Gethin Jenkins/               1. Paul James/                       1. Rhys Gill (Gethin if he stays fit)
2. Hibbard/                       2. Ken Owens/                       2. Hibbard
3. Adam/                         3. Samson Lee/                      3. Samson (Adam if he stay's fit)
4. Alyn Wyn/                     4. Ian Evans/                         4. Alyn Wyn
5. Bradley Davies/               5. Luke Charteris/                  5. Jake Ball
6. Dan Lydiate/                  6. Aaron Shingler                   6. Dan Lydiate
7. Sam Warburton/             7. Justin Tipuric/                     7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Falateu/                8. Ryan Jones/                        8. Toby Falateu
9. Mike Phillips/                  9. Richie Rees/                        9. Rhodri Williams
10. Dan Biggar/                 10. Rhys Priestland/                 10. Patchell
11. George North/              11. Eli Walker/                        11. North
12. Jamie Roberts/             12. Scott Williams/                  12. Cory Allen
13. John Davies/                13. Ashley beck/                    13. John Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert/              14. Liam Williams/                   14. Eli Walker
15. Leigh Halfpenny/           15. Lee Byrne/                       15. Leigh Halfpenny

I'm assuming by strength in depth we are talking about players you would be happy or settle with being in your team against the SH 3 and the 6n teams...

Biltong wrote:

profitius wrote:Ireland

1 Healy (40), McGrath (1), Court (32), Kilcoyne (8)
2 Best (68), Cronin (28), Sherry (1), Strauss (4)
3 Ross (32), Fitzpatrick (6), Moore (0), Archer (1)
4 Henderson (6), McCarthy (13), Tuohy (7), DOC (94)
5 POC (86), Ryan (28), Toner (8)
6 POM (17), McLoughlin (6), Ferris (35)
7 SOB (28), Henry (9), O'Donnell (2), Jennings (13)
8 Heaslip (58),

9 Murray (20), Reddan (51), Marmion
10 Sexton (36), Jackson (5), Madigan (5), Hanrahan
11 Earls (39), Zebo (6), Fitzgerald (26), Trimble (50)
12 Marshall (3), D'Arcy (74), Olding (1), McSharry (0)
13 BOD (126), Henshaw (2), Cave (5), Griffin (0)
14 Bowe (52), McFadden (20), D Kearney (1), Gilroy (5)
15 R Kearney (47)


Ireland is building up some depth but many of the players listed above won't be getting many games under Schmidt eg DOC, Cave, McSharry, Jennings, Trimble.


Ireland will see plenty of changes between now and the world cup with a few outsiders also making the breakthrough.

How many of those have played international rugby?

Just in case anyone didn't believe the lack of experienced depth at 12 and 13  

 

Cheers mate, thanks for the number of caps.

Piutau's only had a few games mostly as a sub but noones complaining about him. Its not the number of games its the way you look in them.

I don't know them but obviously Henshaw and Cave are not convincing yet so you want BOD to mentor them through a bit more.

dummy_half wrote:Munkian

I wouldn't go that far re Marler - ok, he got owned in the 6Ns against Adam Jones, but outside of that game he has stood up reasonably well at international level when called upon. Not bad for the 3rd choice . I wish we had equally good third choice options in all positions. As it stands, I'd say we only have that at 9, 10, 15 and perhaps hooker (Webber is less proven at Test level, but has the potential).

Marler's vulnerability is his bind. If the opposing TH is allowed to bind on the sleeve, he loses it too easily and the result is a penalty. Jones bound on the hem of the sleeve at every scrum (at least, every scrum where his bind was shown on tv) in Cardiff and the ARs completely ignored it despite it being the easiest form of scrum cheating to spot.

You may be able to tell that I was more than mildly annoyed about that particular refereeing failure. A cracking example of refereeing what they thought was happening rather than what they could actually see. However, under the new scrummaging laws it's harder to cheat that way and Marler has held up well against both South Africa (two summers ago) and Argentina (concussion aside). He's started to bring his club game in the loose to the international game, too.

Still quite raw, but by 2015 should be fine. Corbs is a better bet if he is fit, but that's an increasingly big if.

For English fans there is a great young English lock Matt Symons playing for Canterbury in NZ who has just been signed by the Chiefs for next years Super comp. He's very highly thought of down here and may be worth a punt in a world cup team in 2 years time if he returns home to look for selection.

England's depth in the front row is being tested this weekend. Down to arguably our 3rd and 4th choice loose-heads!

On a certain level it is pleasing to see that we can lose our first two players and still put someone as good as Mullan out. I can't remember how Mullan went in his cap against Italy, anyone remember if he went okay?

It might be a backwards step but at this point it might have been tempting to ask Andrew Sheridan to do us a favour for a game.

AFewTooManyKnocks wrote:For English fans there is a great young English lock Matt Symons playing for Canterbury in NZ who has just been signed by the Chiefs for next years Super comp. He's very highly thought of down here and may be worth a punt in a world cup team in 2 years time if he returns home to look for selection.

Never heard of this guy hen he was England, been doing some digging and he played for Esher. It's a bit surprising that one of the London clubs didn't pick him up, there has been a far greater awareness of the talent that exists in the Championship these days.