New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

But didn't the WRU and its regions capitulate and join their English Masters? Have they done a U-turn now? Looks like it.

Unless they want to hype up the Low Value Cup...

Notch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:They don't have to, but they do have to listen to the other four out of six Unions who want this- or go their own way for good, leave Rugby Union.

why? please explain. who is the "they" that you are referring to?

The French and English. I become more and more convinced that the best solution is for private French and English clubs to form their own competitions, external to the IRB, with players in those competitions ineligible for international rugby whilst we focus on coming up with the pan-European structure that best prepares us for test rugby.

what? ridiculous comment. of course you would like that wouldnt you.

i on the other hand would prefer them to sit out the upcoming Extremely Rubbish Competition and focus on their domestic leagues and getting along as well as possible with their own union. let the unions who control their clubs have a nice little competition between their clubs...oh wait they did that already with the Rabo.

Look at anyway you want but signing the sky deal looks to have completely closed the door on the English. So it's the ERC that ultimately Shut the English teams out.

In affect it was over from that moment.

My reading, the ERC, quite rightly are leaving the door open to the RFU and PRL, to hopefully get them back in (and they do want them in) - the concession being that they will change the name if needs be, but not the governance principals. In return the price of entry is a very public climb down from all of McCaffrey musings. Just a question of whether their egos will allow or is McCaffrey the one who has to fall on his sword?

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:quins, last year Clermont and Toulon contested the Heineken Cup final and the France test team were dire. The FFR can see that the system is failing.

Test rugby is our only measure of success and the SH Unions with their central contracts and cross-border league have been kicking our arses for years. If the PRL and LNR aren't going to be part of the solution then whats the point in it all?

and you think a euro super rugby league is the answer? comparing SA, AUS, NZ (invariably 3 of top 4 in IRB rankings, each w 5 teams in SR) with clubs in Eng, Fra, Ire, Wal, Sco, Ita should highight the issue for you.

absolutely zero chance of it happening. zippo. zero. the profesional genie is out of the bottle and much as Camou might like it there is no chance of him creating an entirely new clubs landscape and league in france. nor ritchie in england.

I think it has to happen, quins, to counter any future threat from breakaway clubs operating under a new code.

the rabo is a poopie. and you can't polish a poopie. making it a super-sized poopie is not going to alter that fact.  only the irish clubs do well out of the current situation. i can see why you would be keen, but just because you've won this battle doesn't mean that the war is over at all. in anything camou has left a poison chalice for his successor and the only person with any credibility or integrity in many people's eyes is ian ritchie.

quins, take it easy   I have said all along that the different sides wanted different things in this debate. PRL want control over the Unions. The Unions could never allow this. There will always be issues between the clubs and Unions, and the only realistic answer to solving this problem is that each go their own way. Maybe this is what PRL have been pushing for all along in the background of all this. If not to actually have the clubs take over complete control of the Unions?

wolfball wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:it's so depressing that these unaccountable blazers want to actually increase their stranglehold on rugby at all levels. it is so contrary to everything i believe in. i want no part of an organisation that sees control as its primary mandate, piggy-backing on top of commercial leagues.

i hope that prl and lnr clubs decline to join and just focus on their own domestic leagues. A domestic knockout cup and expanding the league by a couple of teams would do wonders for their finances, especially in france.

Someone will always be in control. If not the Unions then the likes of PRL/LNR.

of course someone's in control. but for the clubs its about money. for the unions (ex ian ritchie) it's about tightening their vice like grip on every level of rugby they can, its about ego and power, not money.

Its about ego and power????? Or saving the game from being the mess that football has become???

yawn. you obviously have no understanding of the evolution of football. clubs have ALWAYS ALWAYS been more powerful than the national team and union. most of the matchday attendance records for clubs were set in the 30s when england were played scotland and wales and NI every year plus 2 friendlies. the world cup hadnt even started back then.

please try to do at least some research of show some understanding before making comparisons with another sport

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:They don't have to, but they do have to listen to the other four out of six Unions who want this- or go their own way for good, leave Rugby Union.

why? please explain. who is the "they" that you are referring to?

The French and English. I become more and more convinced that the best solution is for private French and English clubs to form their own competitions, external to the IRB, with players in those competitions ineligible for international rugby whilst we focus on coming up with the pan-European structure that best prepares us for test rugby.

what? ridiculous comment. of course you would like that wouldnt you.

i on the other hand would prefer them to sit out the upcoming Extremely Rubbish Competition and focus on their domestic leagues and getting along as well as possible with their own union. let the unions who control their clubs have a nice little competition between their clubs...oh wait they did that already with the Rabo.

I would like the English to be involved, its you who are sitting out.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:The Grauniad (mouthpiece of PRL, etc) reckons that Camou has 5 T14 clubs in his pocket, and is looking for 3 more to join with the 12 rabo clubs in a 20 team HC, with no Amlin.
 
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/21/english-clubs-unions-save-heineken-cup

Edit: Repeat of Stub's post

Also says something about inviting PRL to be involved on Friday morning...

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:They don't have to, but they do have to listen to the other four out of six Unions who want this- or go their own way for good, leave Rugby Union.

why? please explain. who is the "they" that you are referring to?

The French and English. I become more and more convinced that the best solution is for private French and English clubs to form their own competitions, external to the IRB, with players in those competitions ineligible for international rugby whilst we focus on coming up with the pan-European structure that best prepares us for test rugby.

what? ridiculous comment. of course you would like that wouldnt you.

i on the other hand would prefer them to sit out the upcoming Extremely Rubbish Competition and focus on their domestic leagues and getting along as well as possible with their own union. let the unions who control their clubs have a nice little competition between their clubs...oh wait they did that already with the Rabo.

where i have bolded above is the fundamental problem. and it is irreconcilable with the two largest, most successful leagues that are privately owned.

According to the Leicester Chief Executive it is the BT deal that precludes the PRL from doing business with the ERC. If Camou does have 5 teams already in the fold then the LNR aren't in a very strong position anyway.

quinsforever wrote:

wolfball wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:it's so depressing that these unaccountable blazers want to actually increase their stranglehold on rugby at all levels. it is so contrary to everything i believe in. i want no part of an organisation that sees control as its primary mandate, piggy-backing on top of commercial leagues.

i hope that prl and lnr clubs decline to join and just focus on their own domestic leagues. A domestic knockout cup and expanding the league by a couple of teams would do wonders for their finances, especially in france.

Someone will always be in control. If not the Unions then the likes of PRL/LNR.

of course someone's in control. but for the clubs its about money. for the unions (ex ian ritchie) it's about tightening their vice like grip on every level of rugby they can, its about ego and power, not money.

Its about ego and power????? Or saving the game from being the mess that football has become???

yawn. you obviously have no understanding of the evolution of football. clubs have ALWAYS ALWAYS been more powerful than the national team and union. most of the matchday attendance records for clubs were set in the 30s when england were played scotland and wales and NI every year plus 2 friendlies. the world cup hadnt even started back then............

Pretty sure it had.

Casartelli wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

wolfball wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:it's so depressing that these unaccountable blazers want to actually increase their stranglehold on rugby at all levels. it is so contrary to everything i believe in. i want no part of an organisation that sees control as its primary mandate, piggy-backing on top of commercial leagues.

i hope that prl and lnr clubs decline to join and just focus on their own domestic leagues. A domestic knockout cup and expanding the league by a couple of teams would do wonders for their finances, especially in france.

Someone will always be in control. If not the Unions then the likes of PRL/LNR.

of course someone's in control. but for the clubs its about money. for the unions (ex ian ritchie) it's about tightening their vice like grip on every level of rugby they can, its about ego and power, not money.

Its about ego and power????? Or saving the game from being the mess that football has become???

yawn. you obviously have no understanding of the evolution of football. clubs have ALWAYS ALWAYS been more powerful than the national team and union. most of the matchday attendance records for clubs were set in the 30s when england were played scotland and wales and NI every year plus 2 friendlies. the world cup hadnt even started back then............

Pretty sure it had.

It had, first football WC was in 1930 - its another one of quinsforever's rather dodgey stats.

first one was 1930, and didnt have qualification. if you could get there you could play. was hardly at the forefront of footballing aspirations if england couldnt be bothered to send a team over?

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

wolfball wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:it's so depressing that these unaccountable blazers want to actually increase their stranglehold on rugby at all levels. it is so contrary to everything i believe in. i want no part of an organisation that sees control as its primary mandate, piggy-backing on top of commercial leagues.

i hope that prl and lnr clubs decline to join and just focus on their own domestic leagues. A domestic knockout cup and expanding the league by a couple of teams would do wonders for their finances, especially in france.

Someone will always be in control. If not the Unions then the likes of PRL/LNR.

of course someone's in control. but for the clubs its about money. for the unions (ex ian ritchie) it's about tightening their vice like grip on every level of rugby they can, its about ego and power, not money.

Its about ego and power????? Or saving the game from being the mess that football has become???

yawn. you obviously have no understanding of the evolution of football. clubs have ALWAYS ALWAYS been more powerful than the national team and union. most of the matchday attendance records for clubs were set in the 30s when england were played scotland and wales and NI every year plus 2 friendlies. the world cup hadnt even started back then............

Pretty sure it had.

It had, first football WC was in 1930 - its another one of quinsforever's rather dodgey stats.

Maybe he doesn't consider it a 'real' World Cup as England weren't in it.

England is far from the centre of the sporting world you assume it is.

The wheels look to be coming off the chariot!  

quinsforever wrote:first one was 1930, and didnt have qualification. if you could get there you could play. was hardly at the forefront of footballing aspirations if england couldnt be bothered to send a team over?

 

Notch wrote:England is far from the centre of the sporting world you assume it is.

To be fair quins didn't say that....

England didn't compete because they felt they were the best and didnt need to prove it to anyone.

Home nations also refused to play in 34 football world cup as they were having a fight with FIFA.

still think national football in the uk was bigger than the club game anyone?

here's the link to all those dodgy stats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_home_attendances_of_English_football_clubs

LeinsterFan4life wrote:England didn't compete because they felt they were the best and didnt need to prove it to anyone.

Terrible English!  

PRL announcing they are still planning the RCC. Shock horror. What will be interesting is the union announcements tomorrow. If the welsh have flipped and almost half the French too then the RCC is dead. The only thing I have read so far is that there will be no possible agreement now in that we will not have a 6 union competition next season

profitius wrote:The wheels look to be coming off the chariot!  

You hope...

Notch wrote:England is far from the centre of the sporting world you assume it is.

what are you talking about?

Lets not make this nationalistic shall we.

Quins doesn't represent England  

It seems we are on the verge of having no English representation in the next HC, and thats what part of my fear was from the outset.

By all means renegotiate, and lets be honest there was always a renegotiation needed, but the way the PRL and Mcafferty in particular has headed this coup, it was always going to be all or nothing...

I'm sad that it looks like we're going to miss out for a while, but in a way I am glad the RFU can breathe without the threat of the PRL needing elite team players to not be available for the odd 'freindly', and thats the way it would haved gone next had they managed to run a new comp.

stub wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:England didn't compete because they felt they were the best and didnt need to prove it to anyone.

Terrible English!  

Its a good thing Irish is my first language  

Standulstermen wrote:PRL announcing they are still planning the RCC. Shock horror. What will be interesting is the union announcements tomorrow. If the welsh have flipped and almost half the French too then the RCC is dead. The only thing I have read so far is that there will be no possible agreement now in that we will not have a 6 union competition next season

thats one of the first statement recently i 100% agree with.  

unless you're going to add that a super league is the obvious next stop, or that the english and french clubs should create a 3rd version or rugby... 

[quote="Standulstermen"]PRL announcing they are still planning the RCC. Shock horror. What will be interesting is the union announcements tomorrow. If the welsh have flipped and almost half the French too then the RCC is dead. The only thing I have read so far is that there will be no possible agreement now in that we will not have a 6 union competition next season

"A statement from the five unions is expected on Friday morning and it will include an invitation to Premiership Rugby to remain in the Heineken Cup and ERC. The English clubs have been unequivocal in their refusal to play in the tournament as it is currently structured, and although the unions this season made concessions over the number of teams involved, qualification and the division of money, they baulked over handing over control."
 
If that's right from the Guardian then the PRL will have had every opportunity to stay in....

butterfingers wrote:Lets not make this nationalistic shall we.

Quins doesn't represent England  

It seems we are on the verge of having no English representation in the next HC, and thats what part of my fear was from the outset.

By all means renegotiate, and lets be honest there was always a renegotiation needed, but the way the PRL and Mcafferty in particular has headed this coup, it was always going to be all or nothing...

I'm sad that it looks like we're going to miss out for a while, but in a way I am glad the RFU can breathe without the threat of the PRL needing elite team players to not be available for the odd 'freindly', and thats the way it would haved gone next had they managed to run a new comp.

but butterfingers, the problem here is that for the countries who view HC rugby as a test ground/proving ground for their national team players, this whole debate is precisely and exactly a nationalistic one.

ironically only for the english and french club supporters (and welsh region supporters) is this not nationalistic.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

stub wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:England didn't compete because they felt they were the best and didnt need to prove it to anyone.

Terrible English!  

Its a good thing Irish is my first language  

Very good...

The RCC is dead we need to move on.

The Welsh Regions have no choice as they can't survive without the WRU

French clubs are the key - if 5 are on board then I would be very surprised if the rest don't fall in line.
If they rebel where will they go?

The second Tier of French rugby has fine teams with real tradition and support who would gladly take their place

geoff999rugby wrote:The RCC is dead we need to move on.

The Welsh Regions have no choice as they can't survive without the WRU

French clubs are the key - if 5 are on board then I would be very surprised if the rest don't fall in line.
If they rebel where will they go?

The second Tier of French rugby has fine teams with real tradition and support who would gladly take their place

thats a godd idea- do you know what England could also play 2nd teir teams in this ERC.(the BT deal is only with the AP clubs!!)

then we can also have a RCC with the best English and French teams.

sorted

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:Lets not make this nationalistic shall we.

Quins doesn't represent England  

It seems we are on the verge of having no English representation in the next HC, and thats what part of my fear was from the outset.

By all means renegotiate, and lets be honest there was always a renegotiation needed, but the way the PRL and Mcafferty in particular has headed this coup, it was always going to be all or nothing...

I'm sad that it looks like we're going to miss out for a while, but in a way I am glad the RFU can breathe without the threat of the PRL needing elite team players to not be available for the odd 'freindly', and thats the way it would haved gone next had they managed to run a new comp.

but butterfingers, the problem here is that for the countries who view HC rugby as a test ground/proving ground for their national team players, this whole debate is precisely and exactly a nationalistic one.

ironically only for the english and french club supporters (and welsh region supporters) is this not nationalistic.

Stop trying to use greed as a saving grace, it is THE problem! The unions like it or not will always put themselves ahead of the good of the game, but at least at some point there is that afterthought that the game needs to be helped in lesser countries.

If money rules all not only will the tiny nations suffer but anyone outside of England, France and SA will ultimately get drubbed into little more than making up the numbers.

mystiroakey wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The RCC is dead we need to move on.

The Welsh Regions have no choice as they can't survive without the WRU

French clubs are the key - if 5 are on board then I would be very surprised if the rest don't fall in line.
If they rebel where will they go?

The second Tier of French rugby has fine teams with real tradition and support who would gladly take their place

thats a godd idea- do you know what England could also play 2nd teir teams in this ERC.(the BT deal is only with the AP clubs!!)

then we can also have a RCC with the best English and French teams.

sorted

Or the RFU enters non PRL clubns into the HC?

thats what he said

There is still a lot of jumping to conclusions. Do folk seriously think some French teams will take the cash and ERC membership and then for their bread and butter existence in the T14 everyone will be happy? Complete nonsense.

Camou does not own the player contracts.

The whole euro focus is completely skewing what should be the real focus on domestic leagues. This is a massive opportunity to turn the Championship into a fully fledged professional league with fixtures against AP sides.

Euro success doesn't have much relation to the ranking of Test sides does it.

BBC 5 Live are reporting PRL, Welsh and French Clubs are still going ahead with Rugby Championship as announced.............

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:BBC 5 Live are reporting PRL, Welsh and French Clubs are still going ahead with Rugby Championship as announced.............

And a story of sorts on bbc website..

Still a mess it seems.

mystiroakey wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The RCC is dead we need to move on.

The Welsh Regions have no choice as they can't survive without the WRU

French clubs are the key - if 5 are on board then I would be very surprised if the rest don't fall in line.
If they rebel where will they go?

The second Tier of French rugby has fine teams with real tradition and support who would gladly take their place

thats a godd idea- do you know what England could also play 2nd teir teams in this ERC.(the BT deal is only with the AP clubs!!)

then we can also have a RCC with the best English and French teams.

sorted

Trouble is Toulon are one of 5 who appear to have signed up

The Welsh news surprises me - how can the Regions survive without WRU support?

The WRU could be brutal and enter the 4 top league sides in the Pro 12 and it would then be goodbye Regions

geoff999rugby wrote:The Welsh news surprises me - how can the Regions survive without WRU support?

The WRU could be brutal and enter the 4 top league sides in the Pro 12 and it would then be goodbye Regions

Couldn't they just take their players and join PRL? Genuine question.

stub wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The Welsh news surprises me - how can the Regions survive without WRU support?

The WRU could be brutal and enter the 4 top league sides in the Pro 12 and it would then be goodbye Regions

Couldn't they just take their players and join PRL? Genuine question.

Would they be ring fenced, or start in championship?

Which players could they convince to go with, surely there are 6 or so internationals at each club who would be better served staying in Wales.

How would the PRL fund the regions? What would their slice of the pie be?

Way too many problems I think.

then it would get really messy. they would either need WRU approval to play in a league that would effectively be a cross border competition, or, (and this is the one that would be really likely to p1ss people off) the welsh regions could become members of the RFU and it would be fine. would probably start civil war in wales though.

Dragons couldn't for a start as they are part owned
Also question of referees and general infrastructure
Would Osprey's meet the PRL requirement re ground ownership.
Also the Regions, other than Dragons, who are a non-starter would be split from their clubs
Llanelli - Scarlets
Cardiff - Blues
Swansea/Neath - Ospreys

How would that work

Also which PRL teams get ditched you cant have a 16 team league, International windows and a European Competition

This looks to me like Custers Last Stand and a final shout of defiance

butterfingers wrote:

stub wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The Welsh news surprises me - how can the Regions survive without WRU support?

The WRU could be brutal and enter the 4 top league sides in the Pro 12 and it would then be goodbye Regions

Couldn't they just take their players and join PRL? Genuine question.

Would they be ring fenced, or start in championship?

Which players could they convince to go with, surely there are 6 or so internationals at each club who would be better served staying in Wales.

How would the PRL fund the regions? What would their slice of the pie be?

Way too many problems I think.

but they would do it if the WRU enters other teams in their place into the Rabo. they would have no choice.

some problems, but all solvable when compared to going down the tubes.

attendances up.

tv values up.

share of much bigger league.

welsh players would love to play in that league compared to the rabo based on the level of competition.

would be a win-win for the welsh regions. that's why WRU wont enter 4 other clubs into the rabo.

butterfingers wrote:

stub wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The Welsh news surprises me - how can the Regions survive without WRU support?

The WRU could be brutal and enter the 4 top league sides in the Pro 12 and it would then be goodbye Regions

Couldn't they just take their players and join PRL? Genuine question.

Would they be ring fenced, or start in championship?

Which players could they convince to go with, surely there are 6 or so internationals at each club who would be better served staying in Wales.

How would the PRL fund the regions? What would their slice of the pie be?

Way too many problems I think.

Can't see there would be any shortage of funding TBH. Plus think that it would add huge amounts of value in terms of extra international spice. Wouldn't Welsh national side still want it's best player regardless of where they play - plenty in France anyhow? Lots of problems for sure Butterfingers but also lots of potential reward...

geoff999rugby wrote:Dragons couldn't for a start as they are part owned
Also question of referees and general infrastructure
Would Osprey's meet the PRL requirement re ground ownership.
Also the Regions, other than Dragons, who are a non-starter would be split from their clubs
Llanelli - Scarlets
Cardiff - Blues
Swansea/Neath - Ospreys

How would that work

Also which PRL teams get ditched you cant have a 16 team league, International windows and a European Competition

This looks to me like Custers Last Stand and a final shout of defiance

of course you can have a 16 team league if there is no LV cup. and an RCC with less matches.

So that news confirms it

NOTHING HAS CHANGED

mystiroakey wrote:So that news confirms it

NOTHING HAS CHANGED

Yep - I was wrong earlier. This is not the end. Perhaps the beginning of the end though.

stub wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

stub wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:The Welsh news surprises me - how can the Regions survive without WRU support?

The WRU could be brutal and enter the 4 top league sides in the Pro 12 and it would then be goodbye Regions

Couldn't they just take their players and join PRL? Genuine question.

Would they be ring fenced, or start in championship?

Which players could they convince to go with, surely there are 6 or so internationals at each club who would be better served staying in Wales.

How would the PRL fund the regions? What would their slice of the pie be?

Way too many problems I think.

Can't see there would be any shortage of funding TBH. Plus think that it would add huge amounts of value in terms of extra international spice. Wouldn't Welsh national side still want it's best player regardless of where they play - plenty in France anyhow? Lots of problems for sure Butterfingers but also lots of potential reward...

This will sound a bit childish but I think the prem is great as is, Welsh clubs using it as a warming and testing station wouldn't add to our experience!