Will The WRU Do Anything Are They Actually Bothered

First topic message reminder :

So Evans is the next name to go and again good luck to him and who can blame him.

As the title says will the clowns at the WRU do anything do they actually care.

My thoughts are that they don't care about the Regiona one iota, yes they will tell players to get release clauses etc but as long as the stadium is full with corporate and hospitality money then Lewis and Dickering will be happy.

Knowsit17 wrote:

wayne wrote:So you need sources, when the majority of what I told you was in that article, then they want to set up Central Contracts that Price Waterhouse, the Company they (WRU) appointed said it was a BAD IDEA, and you wonder why RRW wouldn't agree to it.
RRW bent over backwards to help in this process.

Some of it yes but not all.

The bit in bold is the part I'm having difficulty believing. How specifically have RRW been bending over backwards as you claim?

Knowsit, I don't know why I'm telling you all this because it is all easily found, 4 totally INDEPENDENT Companies, (Regions) allowed PR/WA full and total access to their accounts, which Price Waterhouse acknowledged, another of P/W findings was that one of the Regions didn't have a viable Business Plan, perhaps you remember this. When this report became common knowledge, the WRU recommended Judge Williams as the Independent Chairman, RRW immediately agreed. This was the time when the Dodger came out with that classic comment that everything would be settled before Christmas, by the following Spring the WRU delegation had not turned up to at least 4 PRGB meetigs called by Judge Williams, that was when the Central Contract meeting was called by the WRU, which very importantly was called OUTSIDE of the PRGB, which RRW rightly turned down and said any meetings would only be met under the PRGB umbrella

Hammer, thanks for that, I mentioned on one of the HC threads I don't know how to copy and paste and at 66 years of age I'm not going to learn, or to download articles, and as I said on a very recent topic my memory is very good as it always has been.
Can I also say I started supporting the Ospreys when the Celtic Warriors folded, the reason for doing so was to support the WRU, in 8 seasons I've totally changed my allegiance and if only one team of Ospreys or Wales were to win this weekend, I and many on the Ospreys forum would want the Os to win, also on the Ospreys website itself there are tickets still for sale for this weekends match against Oz.

Knowsit17 wrote:The judge was Wyn Williams yes but I have not seen the post I quoted explicitly spelled out that way anywhere which is why I'm curious as to where it's coming from.

The regions have turned down central contracts at least once already and have stubbornly refused any olive branch the WRU has offered them. It begs the question of what more the WRU could be doing when whatever they propose is waved off without a second thought. And what exactly have the regions themselves done other than stir the pot in trying to jump ship to the RCC?

Do you have any idea why the 'offer' of central contracts was declined or did you just read the headlines?

Welsh Magician wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:The judge was Wyn Williams yes but I have not seen the post I quoted explicitly spelled out that way anywhere which is why I'm curious as to where it's coming from.

The regions have turned down central contracts at least once already and have stubbornly refused any olive branch the WRU has offered them. It begs the question of what more the WRU could be doing when whatever they propose is waved off without a second thought. And what exactly have the regions themselves done other than stir the pot in trying to jump ship to the RCC?

Do you have any idea why the 'offer' of central contracts was declined or did you just read the headlines?

They were declined because the Regions directors didn't think they could run their own business without a larger hand out.

The regions are franchises, all but the dragons are independent businesses that we all know have been poorly run, but they have not been poorly run by the WRU and they are not being under funded by the WRU either. There is no reason that the WRU have to give the regions more money, the WRU are not a bank, they are not a loans company.

Everyone wants central contracting, the regions, the players and the WRU the only stumbling block is regional directors feeling that they are not getting a decent return on their investment.

maestegmafia wrote:

Welsh Magician wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:The judge was Wyn Williams yes but I have not seen the post I quoted explicitly spelled out that way anywhere which is why I'm curious as to where it's coming from.

The regions have turned down central contracts at least once already and have stubbornly refused any olive branch the WRU has offered them. It begs the question of what more the WRU could be doing when whatever they propose is waved off without a second thought. And what exactly have the regions themselves done other than stir the pot in trying to jump ship to the RCC?

Do you have any idea why the 'offer' of central contracts was declined or did you just read the headlines?

They were declined because the Regions directors didn't think they could run their own business without a larger hand out.

The regions are franchises, all but the dragons are independent businesses that we all know have been poorly run, but they have not been poorly run by the WRU and they are not being under funded by the WRU either. There is no reason that the WRU have to give the regions more money, the WRU are not a bank, they are not a loans company.

Everyone wants central contracting, the regions, the players and the WRU the only stumbling block is regional directors feeling that they are not getting a decent return on their investment.

The PWC report recommended centralised contracts, but said it would be disastrous if that meant any cutting of the current funding. So the WRU offered contracts and a cut in funding. Now why would someone turn down that eh?

Also the regions are running at a lose, there is not return on investment! The directors are shelling out money to keep the regions afloat, to provide players to the national side. If these men that you make out tot be the bad guys were to pull out today the who regional system would crash. So unless the union can pull out enough cash to run the regions completely on their own, and pay the wages of all the players and all the coaches, and all the kids that sell the coffee, programmes etc, then I would suggest that these evil backers that the regions have are actually the only ones who are keeping the system upright.

I am not making out anyone to be the bad guys, but that PWC report highlighted how poorly the financial planning of the Regions has been and they are constantly asking for hand outs to bail them out of bad decisions they have made.

The idea that the WRU do not want successful regions is unfathomable.

Maes by classing them as the 'only stumbling block', it does read as if you have them down as standing in the way of progress.

It is definitely a better, blinkered and short term, financial option to have the regions unable to hold on to the stars, and them playing in 'higher intensity' leagues (as Gats has mentioned before) regularly providing they have the release clause. The regions will require far less funding to field a squad of kids. Also this would mean that the Union would not need to pay the regions that £6m a year for the 4th AI, they could just use players with release clauses instead. I know it sound harsh, but the people at the top of the union have done nothing to make me thing that they are concerned with anything outside of the international scene.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Maes by classing them as the 'only stumbling block', it does read as if you have them down as standing in the way of progress.

It is definitely a better, blinkered and short term, financial option to have the regions unable to hold on to the stars, and them playing in 'higher intensity' leagues (as Gats has mentioned before) regularly providing they have the release clause.  The regions will require far less funding to field a squad of kids.  Also this would mean that the Union would not need to pay the regions that £6m a year for the 4th AI, they could just use players with release clauses instead.  I know it sound harsh, but the people at the top of the union have done nothing to make me thing that they are concerned with anything outside of the international scene.

The stumbling block, speed bump whatever we want to call it is the same issue. Regions need money, WRU say they can't afford to give it.

Its hard to put anyone at fault, though I think we have all seen the way the regions have been managed for the last decade and could quite soundly say that there have been many many financial decisions made by Directors that have left them in a worse financial state than they could have been.

Maes, just out of interest what have been those decisions? Realistically there have been a few poor signings, but generally these have been made due to the lack of cash to make better ones. I can't honestly think of many god awful calls by the money men as such, with the possible exception of SNK and the move to CCS.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Maes, just out of interest what have been those decisions?  Realistically there have been a few poor signings, but generally these have been made due to the lack of cash to make better ones.  I can't honestly think of many god awful calls by the money men as such, with the possible exception of SNK and the move to CCS.

The general direction was ridiculous. Spending masses of cash on high earning overseas stars crippled the regions as you highlighted is the main cause of the lack of finances now.

Do we actually know, as in provable facts, that these overseas stars were on huge wages in comparison to the welsh lads? Because at the moment it is the welsh lads that are costing the earth and we can pick up decent nwq players for penuts compared to their welsh equivalent.

Rob Howley On Ian Evans Move (beeb) wrote:"On his move, it's obviously disappointing. Coming back to wanting to keep our players in Wales and that's all we can ask in terms of having full release of his contract.
"I haven't spoken to Ian personally about his situation. So I'm unsure of that release, but I'm sure that he's hopefully discussed that with [Wales coach] Warren Gatland and made sure that he has got release."

The two bits in bold just highlight the general attitude toward player retention by the WRU and the national coaches.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25134030 wrote: Evans, has signed a three-year contract with Toulon and Shanklin is the latest to express concern over the exodus.

"I think you've got to question the regions' ambitions really," he said.

"I know there are financial issues and I know that, but did the Ospreys do everything their power to keep Ian Evans?

"He wasn't getting much game time down at the Ospreys and they sort of look like they are filtering him out a little bit.

"I think it's a Toulon gain and an Ospreys loss."

I can almost hear the discussion between them now

Roge - "Hey Gats, just hear on the radio Ianto has signed for Toulon.  Did you know?"
Gats - "Yep I did"
Roge - "Did you say anything or do anything to stop him, we can tell the press that we didn't want him to go"
Gats - "It's ok he has a release clause"
Roge - "oh that's fine then, we will make it look like to Ospreys didn't try hard enough to keep him, and point out we made sure he had a release clause.  I'll just ring the Western Fail and Beeb now to let them know that they can print the story with a negative regions spin, and make us look like we ensured he is available for Wales duties though"

Roge - "Hey Gats, just hear on the radio Ianto has signed for Toulon.  Did you know?"
Gats - "Yep I did"
Roge - "Did you say anything or do anything to stop him, we can tell the press that we didn't want him to go"
Gats - "It's ok he has a release clause"
Roge - "oh that's fine then, we will make it look like to Ospreys didn't try hard enough to keep him, and point out we made sure he had a release clause.  I'll just ring the Western Fail and Beeb now to let them know that they can print the story with a negative regions spin, and make us look like we ensured he is available for Wales duties though..........what position does he play again?"
Gats:  "Second row".
Rodge:  "Oh, what do second rows do?"
Gats:  "Push in the scrums and jump in the lineouts mate."
Rodge:  "Jump in the what???"
Gats:  "Lineouts."
Rodge:  "Lineups?  Like when they play the anthems?"
Gats:  "Dikkhead."

Casartelli wrote:Roge - "Hey Gats, just hear on the radio Ianto has signed for Toulon.  Did you know?"
Gats - "Yep I did"
Roge - "Did you say anything or do anything to stop him, we can tell the press that we didn't want him to go"
Gats - "It's ok he has a release clause"
Roge - "oh that's fine then, we will make it look like to Ospreys didn't try hard enough to keep him, and point out we made sure he had a release clause.  I'll just ring the Western Fail and Beeb now to let them know that they can print the story with a negative regions spin, and make us look like we ensured he is available for Wales duties though..........what position does he play again?"
Gats:  "Second row".
Rodge:  "Oh, what do second rows do?"
Gats:  "Push in the scrums and jump in the lineouts mate."
Rodge:  "Jump in the what???"
Gats:  "Lineouts."
Rodge:  "Lineups?  Like when they play the anthems?"
Gats:  "Dikkhead."

 

Funny guys.  

But sadly so true, WRU are killing off their responsibility bit by bit, grass roots will be hit next.

Welsh Magician wrote:But sadly so true, WRU are killing off their responsibility bit by bit, grass roots will be hit next.

The Millenium Stadium grass roots have already been left to rot.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Maes, just out of interest what have been those decisions?  Realistically there have been a few poor signings, but generally these have been made due to the lack of cash to make better ones.  I can't honestly think of many god awful calls by the money men as such, with the possible exception of SNK and the move to CCS.

Oh the irony.

Casartelli wrote:Roge - "Hey Gats, just hear on the radio Ianto has signed for Toulon.  Did you know?"
Gats - "Yep I did"
Roge - "Did you say anything or do anything to stop him, we can tell the press that we didn't want him to go"
Gats - "It's ok he has a release clause"
Roge - "oh that's fine then, we will make it look like to Ospreys didn't try hard enough to keep him, and point out we made sure he had a release clause.  I'll just ring the Western Fail and Beeb now to let them know that they can print the story with a negative regions spin, and make us look like we ensured he is available for Wales duties though..........what position does he play again?"
Gats:  "Second row".
Rodge:  "Oh, what do second rows do?"
Gats:  "Push in the scrums and jump in the lineouts mate."
Rodge:  "Jump in the what???"
Gats:  "Lineouts."
Rodge:  "Lineups?  Like when they play the anthems?"
Gats:  "Dikkhead."

Not much of a social media kind of guy but this is when you need a 'like' button.

[Apparantly Scottish Rugby got 64000 'likes' of Facebook according to the SRU 2013 Annual Report]

maestegmafia wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Maes, just out of interest what have been those decisions?  Realistically there have been a few poor signings, but generally these have been made due to the lack of cash to make better ones.  I can't honestly think of many god awful calls by the money men as such, with the possible exception of SNK and the move to CCS.

The general direction was ridiculous. Spending masses of cash on high earning overseas stars crippled the regions as you highlighted is the main cause of the lack of finances now.

Cardiff bloos were brilliant when the spine of the team included; Filise (TH), Tito (Lock), Rush (8), Spice (SH), Robinson (OH and token Welshman), Blair (FB) not forgetting Jamie Robinson (OC and Welsh too). VFM considering they were available all season long.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Do we actually know, as in provable facts, that these overseas stars were on huge wages in comparison to the welsh lads?  Because at the moment it is the welsh lads that are costing the earth and we can pick up decent nwq players for penuts compared to their welsh equivalent.

Both the good ones and the mediocre ones that enable satisfaction of the NWQ quota. The PA needs revising asap.

maestegmafia wrote:I am not making out anyone to be the bad guys, but that PWC report highlighted how poorly the financial planning of the Regions has been and they are constantly asking for hand outs to bail them out of bad decisions they have made.

The idea that the WRU do not want successful regions is unfathomable.

The point is though, it aint just about money. Loads of articles on the net featuring Andrew Hore bashing the WRU. Not sure why he's been the most vocal of the bunch, but it appears to be the case.

"It's a shambles and we need to get our stuff together or we die”
Andrew Hore Ospreys chief operating officer
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21957344

Welsh Magician wrote:But sadly so true, WRU are killing off their responsibility bit by bit, grass roots will be hit next.

That is absolute BS and you know it...

maestegmafia wrote:

Welsh Magician wrote:But sadly so true, WRU are killing off their responsibility bit by bit, grass roots will be hit next.

That is absolute BS and you know it...

The WRU have offered the Regions the same deal in the PA as they did back in 2007, so considering that there is inflation etc, and having to compensate for the rising wages that the French/Jeff are offering, I would say that it is a fair assumption.

maestegmafia wrote:

Welsh Magician wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:The judge was Wyn Williams yes but I have not seen the post I quoted explicitly spelled out that way anywhere which is why I'm curious as to where it's coming from.

The regions have turned down central contracts at least once already and have stubbornly refused any olive branch the WRU has offered them. It begs the question of what more the WRU could be doing when whatever they propose is waved off without a second thought. And what exactly have the regions themselves done other than stir the pot in trying to jump ship to the RCC?

Do you have any idea why the 'offer' of central contracts was declined or did you just read the headlines?

They were declined because the Regions directors didn't think they could run their own business without a larger hand out.

The regions are franchises, all but the dragons are independent businesses that we all know have been poorly run, but they have not been poorly run by the WRU and they are not being under funded by the WRU either. There is no reason that the WRU have to give the regions more money, the WRU are not a bank, they are not a loans company.

Everyone wants central contracting, the regions, the players and the WRU the only stumbling block is regional directors feeling that they are not getting a decent return on their investment.

Would have been easier to just say headlines.

Welsh Magician wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Welsh Magician wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:The judge was Wyn Williams yes but I have not seen the post I quoted explicitly spelled out that way anywhere which is why I'm curious as to where it's coming from.

The regions have turned down central contracts at least once already and have stubbornly refused any olive branch the WRU has offered them. It begs the question of what more the WRU could be doing when whatever they propose is waved off without a second thought. And what exactly have the regions themselves done other than stir the pot in trying to jump ship to the RCC?

Do you have any idea why the 'offer' of central contracts was declined or did you just read the headlines?

They were declined because the Regions directors didn't think they could run their own business without a larger hand out.

The regions are franchises, all but the dragons are independent businesses that we all know have been poorly run, but they have not been poorly run by the WRU and they are not being under funded by the WRU either. There is no reason that the WRU have to give the regions more money, the WRU are not a bank, they are not a loans company.

Everyone wants central contracting, the regions, the players and the WRU the only stumbling block is regional directors feeling that they are not getting a decent return on their investment.

Would have been easier to just say headlines.

 

Ian Evans has had a major falling out with coach Steve Tandy. I wouldn't look at this particular transfer as a defection from Welsh rugby.

Ianto has apparently had a very half arsed attitude in training and hasn't featured for the Ospreys for quite a while. Big name player, and one of my very favorite Ospreys, but basically he has been told to leave the region because of a poor attitude.

Shifty wrote:Ian Evans has had a major falling out with coach Steve Tandy.  I wouldn't look at this particular transfer as a defection from Welsh rugby.  

Ianto has apparently had a very half arsed attitude in training and hasn't featured for the Ospreys for quite a while.  Big name player, and one of my very favorite Ospreys, but basically he has been told to leave the region because of a poor attitude.  

May I ask what brought that on?

There seems to be this major focus on experienced players leaving.  I remember when Ian Evans & A.W Jones first got into the Ospreys side many moon's ago.  Would they have developed had they not been introduced so early to pro rugby?  Bottom line some players are coming to the end of their cycle so are bound to take money.  Will keeping them make the Regions any more successful?  Probably not.

I've seen the regions develop from infancy and if I'm totally honest we have a way of breeding inconsistent players.  Once they get international recognition they seem to go back to their regions and rarely perform to their best ability.  Sure when the big regional games come up they stand up to be counted but when its a lesser match most of our guys have a problem with motivating themselves.  Don't get me wrong, some players perform all the time but the issue for me as a whole, rarely do we see their best performances in a regional shirt.  

Then you have the added problem that at times a massive issue at regional level has been the lack of direction from coaches.  You cant underestimate the importance of high calibre coaches.  In my opinion, if you want the very best performance you need high calibre management.  The regions as a whole have spent a lot of time developing their own, which in my opinion has contributed to poor regional performances just as much as player depth and quality is an issue.  It's rare that we see great coaches/managers leading our regions and when we do develop the coaches enough, they tend to leave to experience other cultures such as recently Davies & Young.  

Bottom line is while the regions continue to bring in coaches with no experience of top level rugby we will continue to see experimental tactics and sub standard teams running out.  I find it ironic that managers like Gatland (who is on a reported 350K) seems to be a lesser requirement than paying top dollar for players.  Bottom line top quality coaching and management will develop players while inexperienced coaches and management will more often than not underperform despite having top quality players.

In my opinion facilities, coaching & management should be made a higher priority than player retention.  We always produce another generation of rugby player as we don't lack talent in wales but we certainly lack the overall ability to train them into winning professionals.

Mushroom you make some good points that only further what I have said about regional mismanagement.

The dragons made some great decisions over the last six months , good coaching team and good players.

Bugger all money but they look a lot better this year than last.


I like to see young coaches at regions but I want experience there too.

Gibbes is a good head at the ospreys. Macintosh at the blues is a good move. Scarlets could really do with some experienced coaches..