New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:I don't think any one is argueing that the HEC is not a great comp, some are saying that it is not be all & end all & there is more to rugby.
PRL/BT have not stated the amount for Aviva & Europe separately as this would give information to Sky. However PRL have stated that PRL clubs will be better off with just the Aviva under the BT deal than they are now with the present combined Aviva/Europe.
The BT deal is for Aviva with an agreement that BT will have PRL's rights in any European comp.

It sounds like they have. The quote from Sin e suggests the BT part is worth about 20-odd million per year. Assuming he's talking in Euros and that 20-odd is about 20 (certainly reads that way). Over three years so thats 60 million. So that's about £50MM. Assuming that's top amount and therefore releases the whole "up to" £152M it means there is between £102M for the Premiership over four years. So thats £25M per year. Previous Sky/ESPN deal was for around £54M for 3 years, or about £18M per year. So that's an extra £7M a year for the Premeirship.

About

Thats working out ok so for the AP clubs. They now have a little over £2m for tv rights this year. Last year they got £1.9m (between AP & ERC).

Down guarantee of 3 home sell-out games (plus corporate entertainment ect).

They weren't sell outs. Even Tigers didn't sell out all the ERC games. But they can replace it with an English cup. Won't make as much but will probably make enough. Would be great if the Championship sides got involved and got an equal share (per team).

I wouldn't expect Tigers to sell out as they have a fairly big stadium, but clubs like Exeter were selling out (average 10k for HCup). Average about 7K for Aviva Premiership last year.

No HC sell-outs at Sandy Park last year (not even for Leinster), and the AP average was a little higher.

Last season:

Sale Sharks 5,568
Saracens 6,141
Quins 8,472
Warriors 7,295
Wasps 7,557
L Irish 7,557
Bath 10,744
L Welsh 7,317

etc. etc..

Heineken Cup
Clermont 9,819
Scarlets 9,258
Leinster 10,198

At least 2k more per game (and tickets are also more expensive).

I was commenting on the part of your point that interested me. That can happen. But the discussion between you and Feckless wasn't mine.

But in actual fact I think my comments also took care of the answer I might give. AP works as a single entity because it is - a single entity. Pro12 is fundamentally - fundamentally - structured differently. And it can't be structured any other way, as the WRU can never have authority over Irish Provinces or vice versa.... we are independent entities joining together to play a single League.

hey! man up. no blue SKY thinking. no ifs, no B(u)Ts.

what's the first rule of euroclubfightclub?

SecretFly wrote:I was commenting on the part of your point that interested me.  That can happen.  But the discussion between you and Feckless wasn't mine.

But in actual fact I think my comments also took care of the answer I might give.  AP works as a single entity because it is - a single entity.  Pro12 is fundamentally - fundamentally - structured differently.  And it can't be structured any other way, as the WRU can never have authority over Irish Provinces or vice versa.... we are independent entities joining together to play a single League.

yes i iknow. spotted that. it is the very nature of the root of the problems. privately owned vs union owned. 1 nation league vs 4 nation league. qualification, money distribution, governance voting, all of these have to favour either league, clubs, or unions. messy.

Meanwhile, the Welsh sueing themselves.

that's one word for it

or not, if you spell it correctly

they Welsh WRU and Regions need a ref with a whistle - which will of course create a diversion for their anger and unite them against a common enemy

Nigel Owens. Best ref in the world.

quinsforever wrote:Nigel Owens. Best ref in the world.

  

Don't like his style personally. Let's loads go to make the game flow but then can penalise things he's previously let go just because he seems to feel like he should. He warns players a lot but if they ignore him and 'win' at whatever they're doing he waves play on (worst are players handling in the ruck "hands off, hands off.......ok he's won it play on" and offside at the ruck "pillars back, back....[they don't move, nothing happens]). He also uses his own terminology for everything which can be confusing for non-native English speakers.

But I can see why a lot of people do like him. He helps for entertaining games (even if they're not technically rugby union   ) and his little sound bites can be funny.

I'm a grump.

Oh and this has filled up quick hasn't it?

As long as it is NOT Rolland we'll be ok

no the ingredient to madden a Welshman and unite them is an Irish ref I'm afraid - so it'll have to be Clancy. Instant agreement between WRU and regions on all outstanding issues will be the result.

Pretty confused by Mr Ritchie's comments

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25325983

'Still a deal to be done' and 'talks are ongoing on a daily basis between RFU and the unions' but tagline is 'The future of the Heineken Cup is in danger after English clubs refused to enter events run by European Rugby Cup'....surely he talking to the wrong folks?

Totalflanker wrote:Pretty confused by Mr Ritchie's comments

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25325983

'Still a deal to be done' and 'talks are ongoing on a daily basis between RFU and the unions' but tagline is 'The future of the Heineken Cup is in danger after English clubs refused to enter events run by European Rugby Cup'....surely he talking to the wrong folks?

After having listened to his four minute interview on YouTube I get the impression that it's nothing more than a face saving effort by Richie. Naughty 5 unions excluded him, and rejected his reasoning.
There is nothing new in what Richie has come out with today.

Apparently Richie/RFU are screwed as well - all the Unions are delaying the signing of the Participation Agreement for the world cup (due to be signed by the end of the month)!

I really hope they do boycott the World Cup. It would be   ing hilarious.

You hope who boycotts the WC, Hammer?  The other Unions or the RFU itself?

It's getting to the point of madness this story, and for the life of me I can't genuinely see why it's not front page, a first topic, news in the papers and on TV. I genuinely can't

But it's not.  It's getting very little coverage.  Can you imagine if the football world was having such a major battle??

And there you go - that actually proves what IRFU's Browne says:  Rugby is no way as big and popular as the PRL make it out to be.  It's not close to having the same market value as football - not in 10, not in 20 years.

Love to be a fly on the wall when Philip "Too poor to play in RWC" Browne rocks up to FIRA-AER.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Love to be a fly on the wall when Philip "Too poor to play in RWC" Browne rocks up to FIRA-AER.

in his private jet

SecretFly wrote:You hope who boycotts the WC, Hammer?  The other Unions or the RFU itself?

It's getting to the point of madness this story, and for the life of me I can't genuinely see why it's not front page, a first topic, news in the papers and on TV.  I genuinely can't

But it's not.  It's getting very little coverage.  Can you imagine if the football world was having such a major battle??

And there you go - that actually proves what IRFU's Browne says:  Rugby is no way as big and popular as the PRL make it out to be. It's not close to having the same market value as football - not in 10, not in 20 years.

Is that what he said? I've seen the Irish Times article and that of the Examiner (Examiner is much more coherent) but neither provide quotes resembling that. Any links?

SF doesn't do quotes. he paraphrases, characterises, parodies, satirises. all excellent means of making a point in a free world.   

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Love to be a fly on the wall when Philip "Too poor to play in RWC" Browne rocks up to FIRA-AER.

You never heard of a lyin' Irishman? You're missing a world of delight experience.

We sell lies to the Yanks all the time...just a tenner for ones they can use in family circles.... more serious ones that you'd use in business deals have conditions attached and usually require interest to be paid over a 15 year period. The local donkey farmers in the west do a great tax free sideline in it.

...and yes, quins is most correct, and probably, along with a few other Irish lads here and even a few English and Welsh guys, most understands my quirky modus operandi.

You see, my mind gets bored with detail and highlighting, copying and pasting quotes.  That's someone else's work mostly, I'm much too free a spirit to go quoting accurately all day.  That's a bum's job and I ain't no bum

So mostly I get things done by paraphrasing - which is a legitimate form of discussion.  Paraphrasing is an accurate reflection of a mood or opinion with a very casual attention to detail on actual words used by those paraphrased.  Paraphrasing goes further still in that it tends to make a point within the context of giving a rough reading of something someone said.

So it's a rough quote and a reflection of the mood of the quote:

Accuracy?  Well here goes:

Browne: “What people fail to understand, or certainly what some fail to understand, is that rugby is not soccer. Rugby is not a global sport and we’d be foolish to think it is. It’s not, it’s a very small sport played by a small number of countries at any sort of a high performance level and maybe in 50 years it will be a global sport. But to compare it to soccer is frankly ludicrous.”


That's pretty damn close enough to my paraphrasing to be considered a pretty damn good paraphrasing exercise.  You see I don't invent things because I know people like you and others can always use the Internet to go check out a lie.  I do liberally paraphrase though.

you quote when it suits you. as do we all.

but for the love of pete, can we all keep re-quoting "but to compare it to wendyball is frankly ludicrous"? because that's true.

and it's also the big boogeyman hinted at by many.

on a side note, should quins (my team not me obviously) face off against an irish team in the knockout phases (i know, i'm being optimistic so what) anyone from here who wants to stay chez moi would be very welcome!

You'd welcome a lying paraphrasin' Irishman into your home????
You're a wild man for an Englishman, quins!!! That's considered an extreme sport in some places!

gerry thornley can't come. the rest of yiz is welcome

you SF are definitely welcome. no messing around.   

I'm curious, who is claiming Club Rugby is up with Club Football in terms of Market values?

We had this question answered in another Thread. UEFAs TV/Sponsor income for 2013/14 from the CL/Europa is 33 times larger than ERC's.

And that's before they got a 300% increase for the UK market alone in the new deal!

Andyi

NO one is

No one has

Its just certain posters are blaming the PRL of believing this- Which is pretty insane

No one is claiming PRL are saying that.

What is pointed out is that because we are of very different sizes the Soccer model will not work for Rugby Union

The model is fine.

everyone gets a shot at qualifying.

the best leagues get the most spots direct into the tourny

each league sorts out there own tv deals(the way Scotland(spl) and Englands PL sort out there's individually) and then the money is pooled.



teams get paid based on appearances and standing in the event

You strangle leagues other than the big boys.

The Soccer European World is totally dominated by 4 leagues

The Rugby Union world would be totally dominated by 2.

Due to Rugby Unions miuch smaller size no other fully professional league would survive, and emerging countries would be emascualted for ever

International games would no longer be the pinnacle of the game

NO THANKS

It would be dominated by 3 and still is- but others would get a chance, and paid for that chance. therefore more money would go to these emerging nations- they wouldn't die, they would be included and given a chance to grow

why would international games not still be the pinnacle,

i think you are misunderstanding what the model is

"The Soccer European World is totally dominated by 4 leagues"

incorrect- PSG, PORTO, BASEL, CSK MOSCOW, AJAX among others do very well in the UEFA and CL

mystiroakey wrote:Andyi

NO one is

No one has

Its just certain posters are blaming the PRL of believing this- Which is pretty insane

McCafferty HimVerySelf mentioned comparisons about what Football and American football(!) is getting out of their 'product'...in comparison to what the ERC seem to be happy with for their 'product'.  
McCafferty himself directly made the comparison, and the inference was that the rugby product is worth much more (market value) than the idiots at the ERC realise or have the business acumen to unearth.  

So if we're going to talk about these people - and question each other's interpretations of what they have said, at least everyone should be in a position to have read statements from your own guys and know what they all said.

And he is right, RU can grow and look at footballs success.

BVUt no one including mccafferty has said they are on a similar scale.

mystiroakey wrote:It would be dominated by 3 and still is- but others would get a chance, and paid for that chance. therefore more money would go to these emerging nations- they wouldn't die, they would be included and given a chance to grow

why would international games not still be the pinnacle,

i think you are misunderstanding what the model is

Which International side sent players to play a contest against some minnow International sides last summer? It's all very well talking about these things - practical evidence of BIG sides being interested in spreading the word would be much more satisfactory. And because Ireland (yes, that's the one) because Ireland did that - and because they also had their main players away with the Lions at the time - they're true International side that played in America and Canada was diluted twice over. But we did it - for the idea of spreading the word.

mystiroakey wrote:It would be dominated by 3 and still is- but others would get a chance, and paid for that chance. therefore more money would go to these emerging nations- they wouldn't die, they would be included and given a chance to grow

why would international games not still be the pinnacle,

i think you are misunderstanding what the model is

No we are not - we are understanding the damage this would do to smaller nations if the PRL get their way thus we know why they must be resisted. It would be the end of Pro rugby in Scotland and Italy with Wales and Ireland in big trouble. No chance of any of the smaller countries joining the big time. You may think this is fair enough - many of us do not. But fortunately the unions have stuck together to see off the threat for now. International games would become secondary tot eh PRL - see football post champions league to understand what would happen. the champions of the smaller leagues no longer get in for winning their leagues. International football is now secondary to the clubs

I dont understand what you point is SF.

Do you want a gold star because your international team went top the Americas.

mystiroakey wrote:And he is right, RU can grow and look at footballs success.

BVUt no one including mccafferty has said they are on a similar scale.

he's only 'right' now when I point out to you that int ain't just some of us 606 posters saying it. He's wrong. Not even the sides at the bottom of AP (successful League and all) can preach that they're on anything like a super delux gravy train. It's an aspiration to be in the same position as football - but McCafferty will be an old retired man before it happens.

The point is the PRL are very big on talking about spreading the word but if you look at their deeds its a very different thing indeed.

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:And he is right, RU can grow and look at footballs success.

BVUt no one including mccafferty has said they are on a similar scale.

he's only 'right' now when I point out to you that int ain't just some of us 606 posters saying it.  He's wrong.  Not even the sides at the bottom of AP (successful League and all)  can preach that they're on anything like a super delux gravy train.  It's an aspiration to be in the same position as football - but McCafferty will be an old retired man before it happens.

why is he wrong.

Rugby can grow and they can look at other successful models.

NOT ONCE HAS HE SAID RU IS ON A SIMILAR scale to football.

I am struggling to work out what planet you are on tbh mate.

mystiroakey wrote:I dont understand what you point is SF.

Do you want a gold star because your international team went top the Americas.

No...I want you to reread my point...that will be a bonus I'm saying the English do a lot of talking about including the lesser nations in the glorious idea of rugby union...they're not exactly expending themselves doing the practical side of that -are they?

I'm saying Ireland virtually had three teams operating last summer - to spread the English word that we all want to help others get involved. had England? And which was the only side that agreed to meet Samoa in the AIs? Weren't Samoa complaining that the Big lads in Europe seemed to shy away from playing them? So much for helping the little boys along when their is always more money to be had in hosting the big boys.

He is on the smae plaent as the rest of us. You appear to be somewhere else. American football? More money, easier fixztures and first chice of each seasons players to the weakest teams. Nothing like the PRL blueprint.

the egotistical rantings from the PRL mouthpieces are ludicrous and full of obvious misleading statements.

You need to sceptically look at what they actually mean not take their nonsense as the truth.

I still dont understand your point mate, i have read it and reread it;.

I think you need to read what has been said,,

McCarty has never said RU is on a similar scale to football, but he has said that Club Rugbyl can grow.

whether his version is a good model or not is another argument. Whether the irish union are angels and the PRL are evil snakes is another story

Why is this so hard for you to work out dude?

TJ wrote:He is on the smae plaent as the rest of us.  You appear to be somewhere else.  American football?  More money, easier fixztures and first chice of each seasons players to the weakest teams.  Nothing like the PRL blueprint.

the egotistical rantings from the PRL mouthpieces are ludicrous and full of obvious misleading statements.  

You need to sceptically look at what they actually mean not take their nonsense as the truth.  

American football's model is not a successful global model. and i havent once mentioned it.

Its clear to me you are not reading anything that is said.

mystiroakey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:And he is right, RU can grow and look at footballs success.

BVUt no one including mccafferty has said they are on a similar scale.

he's only 'right' now when I point out to you that int ain't just some of us 606 posters saying it.  He's wrong.  Not even the sides at the bottom of AP (successful League and all)  can preach that they're on anything like a super delux gravy train.  It's an aspiration to be in the same position as football - but McCafferty will be an old retired man before it happens.

why is he wrong.

Rugby can grow and they can look at other successful models.

NOT ONCE HAS HE SAID RU IS ON A SIMILAR scale to football.

I am struggling to work out what planet you are on tbh mate.

Of course you are...you don't read your own guy's comments...I'm not surprised you don't see the connection between what the IRFU head would say in public and the PRL head would say in public. The connection was there...it has been commented on by 606ers - me included - and it's a legitmate point in the discussion.

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:And he is right, RU can grow and look at footballs success.

BVUt no one including mccafferty has said they are on a similar scale.

he's only 'right' now when I point out to you that int ain't just some of us 606 posters saying it.  He's wrong.  Not even the sides at the bottom of AP (successful League and all)  can preach that they're on anything like a super delux gravy train.  It's an aspiration to be in the same position as football - but McCafferty will be an old retired man before it happens.

why is he wrong.

Rugby can grow and they can look at other successful models.

NOT ONCE HAS HE SAID RU IS ON A SIMILAR scale to football.

I am struggling to work out what planet you are on tbh mate.

Of course you are...you don't read your own guy's comments...I'm not surprised you don't see the connection between what the IRFU head would say in public and the PRL head would say in public.  The connection was there...it has been commented on by 606ers - me included - and it's a legitmate point in the discussion.

oh i have read the comments.

if you could point me to where he has said that rugby is on a similar scale to football we can start this conversation again.

rather than you spouting irrelevant nonsense

mystiroakey wrote:"The Soccer European World is totally dominated by 4 leagues"

incorrect- PSG, PORTO, BASEL, CSK MOSCOW, AJAX among others do very well in the UEFA and CL

Only one Champions League final since 1995 has been contested by teams outside of the big 4 - I'd call that domination