Forward pass law confuses me ?

by Bluedragon Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:33 am

First topic message reminder :

Unlike Gatland I am not moaning about a ref decision here, just a fan of the game trying to understand the laws of the game. Australia won because they were better, not because of the ref.

But I genuinely don't understand how if the hands go backwards and the ball goes forward then its not a forward pass.

How can the ball leave hands behind a line and be caught ahead of line - obviously nearer to opponents try line - and not go forward ??

This article in the Guardian sort of explains it:

Guardain article

Maybe conspirators amongst you will believe in another Aussie plot to turn Union into League ?

But maybe its cos I am just no good at physics ???

by HammerofThunor Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:23 am

Biltong wrote:You can't be offside in general play.

You have to be put offside by either being in front of a kick, or alternativley a set phase or ruck.

Or a knock on

by **Biltong** Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:55 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
Biltong wrote:You can't be offside in general play.

You have to be put offside by either being in front of a kick, or alternativley a set phase or ruck.
Or a knock on

If the knock on is from a restart and you are in front of the guy who knocked, then yes.

But not from a pass in general play that is knocked on.

by GloriousEmpire Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:17 am

If a guy runs behind the defensive live and you pass grid iron style to him, you'll get penalised as opposed to if you accidentally pass the ball forward. Whether you choose to see that as a distinction or because the game doesn't offer a legitimate mode to become offside is up to you but it amounts to the same thing. It's either a deliberate forward pass, or a kick - either way you're penalised.

by HammerofThunor Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:30 am

Biltong wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Biltong wrote:You can't be offside in general play.

You have to be put offside by either being in front of a kick, or alternativley a set phase or ruck.
Or a knock on
If the knock on is from a restart and you are in front of the guy who knocked, then yes.

But not from a pass in general play that is knocked on.

IRB wrote:11.7 Offside after a knock-on
When a player knocks-on and an offside team-mate next plays the ball, the offside player is liable to sanction if playing the ball prevented an opponent from gaining an advantage.
Sanction: Penalty kick

by Bluedragon Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:43 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I cant believe you guys have spent three days argueing what a forward pass is...

by GloriousEmpire Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:55 am

It's a technicality though, there is no mode to become offside. Receieving a deliberate forward pass would make you off side, but the deliberate forward pass is penalised first. The only other way to get the ball from in front is via a kick - which can make you offside "in general play" unless you make an artificial division that this is "not general play".

by **Rugby Fan** Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:10 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:...Whether you choose to see that as a distinction or because the game doesn't offer a legitimate mode to become offside is up to you but it amounts to the same thing....

It clearly is a distinction. When a backline moves up and a player overruns the ball carrier, causing him to pass the ball forward, the referee doesn't blow up for offside when the pass is taken. That's because he doesn't consider it a deliberate offence (although the passer obviously did intend to get the ball to his man).

However, since this thread has already shown that a pass can travel forward despite being propelled backwards, then a player could take one of those despite having been in front of the ball carrier when the pass is given. After all, players push the boundaries as hard as they can and, having been thrown backwards, it couldn't be a deliberate forward pass.

The match officals might signal a forward pass, noting that there was something fishy about the alignment. They might just as easily let it run on, intending to review the play if it amounted to anything.

In a review, if the TMO focused exclusively on the execution of the pass, it could be allowed. What you wouldn't see is a penalty given for offside.

by Taylorman Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:45 am

Also, its an area thats bound to come under more scrutiny particularly with the amount of offloading where the carrier is often stopped in his tracks while getting the ball away. The 'alignment' will cause closer inspection because the pass because the momentum of one of the players in relation to the other has stopped, causing the passer to be well behind the receiver when catching the ball.

by GloriousEmpire Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:05 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:...Whether you choose to see that as a distinction or because the game doesn't offer a legitimate mode to become offside is up to you but it amounts to the same thing....
It clearly is a distinction. When a backline moves up and a player overruns the ball carrier, causing him to pass the ball forward, the referee doesn't blow up for offside when the pass is taken. That's because he doesn't consider it a deliberate offence (although the passer obviously did intend to get the ball to his man).

However, since this thread has already shown that a pass can travel forward despite being propelled backwards, then a player could take one of those despite having been in front of the ball carrier when the pass is given. After all, players push the boundaries as hard as they can and, having been thrown backwards, it couldn't be a deliberate forward pass.

The match officals might signal a forward pass, noting that there was something fishy about the alignment. They might just as easily let it run on, intending to review the play if it amounted to anything.

In a review, if the TMO focused exclusively on the execution of the pass, it could be allowed. What you wouldn't see is a penalty given for offside.

Well if you read my entire post, I did say depending on it being a deliberate forward pass. The offence that comes first is penalised. So the deliberate forward pass is penalised before the player who catches forms what WOULD be an offside position.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:31 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well if you read my entire post, I did say depending on it being a deliberate forward pass. The offence that comes first is penalised. So the deliberate forward pass is penalised before the player who catches forms what WOULD be an offside position.

I'm talking about the case where there is no deliberate pass forwards, just a pass backwards which travels forwards. There is no first offence to be penalized.

You seem to be saying that if a player who takes the pass has pushed ahead of the ball carrier when the pass is made, he will be penalized for offside. I don't think that would happen. In fact, I'd be interested to know when you think that has ever happened.

You see this happen most frequently when a player offloads the ball around the back of an opposition tackler. A teammate can often find himself running ahead before the pass is made. Also with a big loopy pass across the field. When a back three player fields a loose kick in plenty of space, he sometimes sets off at pace before launching a long pass. It is propelled backwards but goes forward. The guy taking it might have got out of alignment because he doesn't have his usual spatial cues (Which is why it happens a lot in sevens). Sometimes he has never tracked back fast enough to ever be behind the passer.

You don't see penalties awarded.

I can't say this keeps me awake at night, mind you.

by damage_13 Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:16 am

I posted this a while back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg&feature=youtu.be

my problem with it, is the momentum of the player stopped in the tackle, but the pass still going forwards as the tackle happens. This is made worse if the player is driven backwards

by **Rugby Fan** Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:33 am

damage_13 wrote:I posted this a while back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg&feature=youtu.be

I think everyone has posted that video at some point.

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