Ulster v Munster

First topic message reminder :

No one making a new thread so it falls to a Ladyboy to keep yis honest

the IT on Tuesday wrote:Penney said Conor Murray and Simon Zebo would return to the fray towards the end of next week and were not yet ruled out of the upcoming Heineken Cup tie with Gloucester.

Flanker Sean Dougall and centre James Downey (groin) will also miss this week’s game but should be fine for the Gloucester trip.

Donnacha Ryan will not make that clash and is unlikely to be fit for the final Heineken Cup clash with Edinburgh, but Penney said the lock would be available for the Six Nations.

profitius wrote:Munster team vs Ulster named. Its weaker than I thought it would be. No JJ, Cronin, Downey, Earls or Donn Ryan.  


Munster: Felix Jones; Andrew Conway, Casey Laulala, Ivan Dineen, Ronan O'Mahony; Ian Keatley, Cathal Sheridan; Dave Kilcoyne, Damien Varley, Stephen Archer; Donncha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell; Peter O'Mahony Capt., Tommy O'Donnell, James Coughlan.

Replacements: Duncan Casey, John Ryan, BJ Botha, Dave Foley, CJ Stander, Duncan Williams, Johnny Holland, Johne Murphy.


Murray is back in training and Zebo must be nearing a return also.

the IT today wrote:There is some optimism in Ulster as the province is expected to announce a three-month contract for Stephen Ferris, which would give the popular Ravenhill figure a realistic chance to prove his fitness.

The highly-regarded international has been unavailable due to injury since November 2012 but has been making progress on his ankle injury since an operation in the summer. Ulster also expect that their captain, Johann Muller, Irish international backrow Chris Henry, John Afoa and Nick Williams will be all set to face Munster in a sold-out Ravenhill on Friday. It is also expected that forward Iain Henderson will return.

Notch wrote:Ulster XV and replacements to face Munster, RaboDirect PRO12, Ravenhill, Friday 2nd January (kick off 19:05);

(15-9): J Payne, A Trimble, D Cave, L Marshall, C Gilroy, P Jackson, R Pienaar; (1-8): T Court, R Herring, J Afoa, I Henderson, D Tuohy, R Diack (Captain), C Henry, R Wilson; (16-23): N Annett, C Black, D Fitzpatrick, L Stevenson, N Williams, S Doyle, P Marshall, M Allen.

First reaction- TERRIBLE news Muller suffered an injury in training this week. Big blow- hope he is there for Montpellier. Extra back row forward on the bench to cover for the fact Henry and Henderson are on their first games back.

Hanrahan isn't involved at all for Munster, not gutted about that.

Williams has been excellent for us before his injury - he starts at 8 for me. Henry and Diack at flanker.

Don't agree I think Williams has been disappointing this year.
A number of teams sussed him out - take him out early at the knees and he loses a lot (Not easy I agree)
Nowhere near the impact of last year also his ball control in conduct and at the base of the scrum leaves a lot to be desired. Impact sub for me.

Henderson would provide the ball carrier, Henry the 7 work.
With those two Diack ball skills would shine + the guy is playing superbly and clearly is in the grove under Anscombe. Who would have considered him as captain even a year ago.
A better choice than Payne or Afoa who have previously held the honour.

Just watched that Trimble incident again in the 2nd half. It was O'Connell who tackled him off the ball. He didn't bring him down but stopped him almost completely. Wasn't a PT definitely but the YC for O'Connell should have come about twenty minutes earlier

Standulstermen wrote:Just watched that Trimble incident again in the 2nd half. It was O'Connell who tackled him off the ball. He didn't bring him down but stopped him almost completely. Wasn't a PT definitely but the YC for  O'Connell should have come about twenty minutes earlier

What did you make of POM being taken out in the back by Tuohy ( I think it was him)? That could warrant a banning if reviewed I thought.

Have you got a time nacho? Will certainly look for it.

Actually a general area of where in the pitch would be great to. Only reason I found the Trimble one was I knew when and where it happened

No mate I don't but I think that it was after the 55minute and before the 70minute mark. Can see a few incidents being reviewed from both sides to be honest. It was not a nasty match but there were a few nasty incidents.

Nachos Jones wrote:No mate I don't but I think that it was after the 55minute and before the 70minute mark. Can see a few incidents being reviewed from both sides to be honest. It was not a nasty match but there were a few nasty incidents.

Found it nacho. Definite penalty (which please me somewhat because from the resultant ruck Munster got a dubious penalty from which they scored the third try). At least that play evened itself out. That said it is no more than a penalty. In real time it looked like Tuohy properly smacked him but on the replay he chest bumped him. Still stupid but in no way a card or a citing.

Also had a look at the last two scoring penalties for ulster because they were contentious (and I will look at them with ulster eyes so I don't expect any Munster lads to agree). IMO they were both penalties but on the wrong men. O'Mahoney had all rights to the ball but the reason he got it was because Kilcoyne was blocking the placement so penalty against him,

O'Connell I have little sympathy for as Rolland clearly yelled numerous times to let go but the prop who was in front of O'Connell when he knocked on was really culpable of just flopping over the ruck and preventing a clear out.

Both the incidents just illustrate to me that Rolland has gone on a bit too long and his best days are well behind him

Ok, I only saw it during the game so it looked a lot worse then. Hopefully no citing then for him.

3 tries to 2 and good old keatley missing four kicks tell their own story. Must be something about Irish teams but Rolland was all over the place and lacked any authority.

The two tries were down to bad mistakes and loose kicking. If keatley had taken half the points available in the first half we would have been less affected by the vagaries of Rolland and probably should have won.

for Munster the two Duncans and Foley were a big plus when they came on.

geoff999rugby wrote:I thought we had a couple of outstanding forwards last night - Tuohy and Diack.
Henderson and Hery made good returns. Boy have we missed Henry.
I thought our props were poor tonight and after being, slightly, critical of Black that last scrum was worth his wages alone - getting one over on BJ.
Again Wilson didn't impress me. A solid player who knows the ropes and can be cute in key situations but skill set is not quite good enough.

All threes were quite good and Payne was outstanding.
Pienaer was far better than some here think - not MOTM but a good game.

I've been saying all season that I think Black has been our best loosehead this season.  Last night proved it again.  Court conceded two penalties at the scrum rightly or wrongly (many say Archer was boring in all night) when Black came on we really started getting the shuv on Munster which culminated in the penalty at the end.  He also made a fantastic 7 odd metre drive in the Munster 22 leading up to Pienaar's last 3 pointer.

Also Archer had a good game and it was unfortunate that Ryan wasn't up to it in the end.

With all the talk of dodgy decisions in the lead up to Ulsters second try Rolland clearly indicates a penalty for pulling down the munster maul and then seems to forget about it.

It was actually a bit before the Pienaar penalty, it was still a wonderful drive though.

Have to say Court and Afoa are leaving at the right time.

I feel Courts best days are behind him and all this travelling is having an impact on Afoa.

I still don't think black is good enough but he had a good cameo last night.

We don't have a settled front row which is an issue imo

Agree with that - Black is an excellent back up


we need a new LH - we are trying to get one

ME-109 wrote:3 tries to 2 and good old keatley missing four kicks tell their own story. Must be something about Irish teams but Rolland was all over the place and lacked any authority.

The two tries were down to bad mistakes and loose kicking. If keatley had taken half the points available in the first half we would have been less affected by the vagaries of Rolland and probably should have won.

for Munster the two Duncans and Foley were a big plus when they came on.

In a strange way Munster will be very happy with that match because of the above! They proved they can go toe to toe with ulster in their own back yard missing 4 key players plus a fly half and could have won the match.

Its sets up a perfect mind frame for next week.

Plus it's not inconceivable that ulster might have to come to thomond for a quarter final and boy will everybody be up for that.

BlueMuff wrote:

ME-109 wrote:3 tries to 2 and good old keatley missing four kicks tell their own story. Must be something about Irish teams but Rolland was all over the place and lacked any authority.

The two tries were down to bad mistakes and loose kicking. If keatley had taken half the points available in the first half we would have been less affected by the vagaries of Rolland and probably should have won.

for Munster the two Duncans and Foley were a big plus when they came on.

In a strange way Munster will be very happy with that match because of the above! They proved they can go toe to toe with ulster in their own back yard missing 4 key players plus a fly half and could have won the match.

Its sets up a perfect mind frame for next week.

Plus it's not inconceivable that ulster might have to come to thomond for a quarter final and boy will everybody be up for that.

Yes, we will, and hopefully by then will have worked on how to counter your threat - the rolling maul. Game Ulster   

BlueMuff wrote:

ME-109 wrote:3 tries to 2 and good old keatley missing four kicks tell their own story. Must be something about Irish teams but Rolland was all over the place and lacked any authority.

The two tries were down to bad mistakes and loose kicking. If keatley had taken half the points available in the first half we would have been less affected by the vagaries of Rolland and probably should have won.

for Munster the two Duncans and Foley were a big plus when they came on.

In a strange way Munster will be very happy with that match because of the above! They proved they can go toe to toe with ulster in their own back yard missing 4 key players plus a fly half and could have won the match.

Its sets up a perfect mind frame for next week.

Plus it's not inconceivable that ulster might have to come to thomond for a quarter final and boy will everybody be up for that.

Of course if we hadn't butchered out opportunities we could have been an extra twenty or so points on you by half time.  Ulster's lack of accuracy and patience in the first half allowed Munster to still be in the context, aided by the best efforts of Rolland to even the odds.  Never has a man wearing orange been so anti-Ulster.  If I was a Munster fan I would be very concerned by the abject display from the backs.  It was dreadful uninspiring stuff.  That said, in the second half at least, the Munster pack were very very good though will you play another team as poor as us in defending a rolling maul?

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

ME-109 wrote:3 tries to 2 and good old keatley missing four kicks tell their own story. Must be something about Irish teams but Rolland was all over the place and lacked any authority.

The two tries were down to bad mistakes and loose kicking. If keatley had taken half the points available in the first half we would have been less affected by the vagaries of Rolland and probably should have won.

for Munster the two Duncans and Foley were a big plus when they came on.

In a strange way Munster will be very happy with that match because of the above! They proved they can go toe to toe with ulster in their own back yard missing 4 key players plus a fly half and could have won the match.

Its sets up a perfect mind frame for next week.

Plus it's not inconceivable that ulster might have to come to thomond for a quarter final and boy will everybody be up for that.

Of course if we hadn't butchered out opportunities we could have been an extra twenty or so points on you by half time.  Ulster's lack of inability and patience in the first half allowed Munster to still be in the context, aided by the best efforts of Rolland to even the odds.  Never has a man wearing orange been so pro-Ulster.  If I was a Ulster fan I would be very concerned by the abject display from the backs.  It was dreadful uninspiring stuff.  That said, in the second half at least, the Munster pack were very very good though will you play another team as poor as us in defending a rolling maul?

Fixed most of that for you

Lack of inability.. yes, I agree.   

Btw, check this for some lovely reading. In particular check the "clean breaks" for the Ulster back line. For such an abject display, we sure tore the Munster back line to shreds multiple times. My main concern is that we didn't finish those chances off.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rabodirect-pro12-2013-14/rugby/match/191451.html

ME-109 wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

ME-109 wrote:3 tries to 2 and good old keatley missing four kicks tell their own story. Must be something about Irish teams but Rolland was all over the place and lacked any authority.

The two tries were down to bad mistakes and loose kicking. If keatley had taken half the points available in the first half we would have been less affected by the vagaries of Rolland and probably should have won.

for Munster the two Duncans and Foley were a big plus when they came on.

In a strange way Munster will be very happy with that match because of the above! They proved they can go toe to toe with ulster in their own back yard missing 4 key players plus a fly half and could have won the match.

Its sets up a perfect mind frame for next week.

Plus it's not inconceivable that ulster might have to come to thomond for a quarter final and boy will everybody be up for that.

Of course if we hadn't butchered out opportunities we could have been an extra twenty or so points on you by half time.  Ulster's lack of inability and patience in the first half allowed Munster to still be in the context, aided by the best efforts of Rolland to even the odds.  Never has a man wearing orange been so pro-Ulster.  If I was a Ulster fan I would be very concerned by the abject display from the backs.  It was dreadful uninspiring stuff.  That said, in the second half at least, the Munster pack were very very good though will you play another team as poor as us in defending a rolling maul?

Fixed most of that for you

Aye, Ulster's abundant ability allowed Munster to remain in contention   

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Lack of inability.. yes, I agree.   

Btw, check this for some lovely reading.  In particular check the "clean breaks" for the Ulster back line.  For such an abject display, we sure tore the Munster back line to shreds multiple times.  My main concern is that we didn't finish those chances off.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rabodirect-pro12-2013-14/rugby/match/191451.html

Munsters scrambled defence coupled with Ulsters decision making after making line breaks kept Munster in the game in the first half, no doubting that.

"Lack of inability". This just brought you up to a new height in ignorance. Well done sir, I doff my hat to you.          Better stick to your usual sectarian tinged diatribes in future eh? So long DOD, and thanks for all the fish.

Ulster should have had the bonus points before half time. They kept Munster in it. But make no mistake, Munster's pack did very well in the second half. Archer had a very good game indeed. He spat Court out throughout the game and he was clever about it. He scrummaged legally when Rolland was round his side and then bored in when Rolland checked on Afoa. Improved technique and improved intelligence.

Had a rethink, not going to lower myself to Hookisms standards.

My teachers always used to say I was lacking inability. It didn't lead to some hairy Parent-Teacher conferences.

Nachos Jones wrote:Had a rethink, not going to lower myself to Hookisms standards.

That's a few times he has played the orange card no need for it here. Not sure why he is getting away with it

BlueMuff wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:Had a rethink, not going to lower myself to Hookisms standards.

That's a few times he has played the orange card no need for it here. Not sure why he is getting away with it

Ok, my apologies anyway.

He's just winding you up Munster fans. Take it with tongue in cheek.

Notch wrote:He's just winding you up Munster fans. Take it with tongue in cheek.

Fair dues Notch, just don't like that and wont react

Oh children do keep up. DOD is rather famous for his diatribes about people from Ulster which some people have found offensive. So I'm terrible sorry if reminding you of this makes you uncomfortable.

Plus, the ref was wearing orang for Gods sake! He was either pro-Ulster or anti-Ulster depending on your viewpoint. I smelt irony stew

ME-109 wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

ME-109 wrote:3 tries to 2 and good old keatley missing four kicks tell their own story. Must be something about Irish teams but Rolland was all over the place and lacked any authority.

The two tries were down to bad mistakes and loose kicking. If keatley had taken half the points available in the first half we would have been less affected by the vagaries of Rolland and probably should have won.

for Munster the two Duncans and Foley were a big plus when they came on.

In a strange way Munster will be very happy with that match because of the above! They proved they can go toe to toe with ulster in their own back yard missing 4 key players plus a fly half and could have won the match.

Its sets up a perfect mind frame for next week.

Plus it's not inconceivable that ulster might have to come to thomond for a quarter final and boy will everybody be up for that.

Of course if we hadn't butchered out opportunities we could have been an extra twenty or so points on you by half time.  Ulster's lack of inability and patience in the first half allowed Munster to still be in the context, aided by the best efforts of Rolland to even the odds.  Never has a man wearing orange been so pro-Ulster.  If I was a Ulster fan I would be very concerned by the abject display from the backs.  It was dreadful uninspiring stuff.  That said, in the second half at least, the Munster pack were very very good though will you play another team as poor as us in defending a rolling maul?

Fixed most of that for you

If that works for you then you have a problem.

Ulster have the best young backs in Ireland and Munster backs are poor.
Earls and Zebo are very good winger and JJ is a prospect but other than that Munster are weak 10 to 15

Well I know you only went from 10 to 15 Geoff, but Connor Murray is good young player, getting better with every match and has every opportunity of being genuinely world class in a few seasons.  However it is true Munster haven't produced a good Irish centre for the better part of a decade.  They've made up for it in plenty of other positions though.

Connor is a country mile superior to any Irish 9 at Ulster.

I would also rather have their props, signed up for next year, than ours. (we need to address this as a matter or urgency not just replacing Court and Afoa but getting Fitzpatrick signed up)
I would also rather have their locks, signed up for next year, than ours.

So not saying we are a better team but ignoring JJ, who needs more game time, there is not a single player at Munster at 10, 12, 13 or 15 who would get near the Ulster first XV.

JJ would make the bench imv.

geoff999rugby wrote:Connor is a country mile superior to any Irish 9 at Ulster.

I would also rather have their props, signed up for next year, than ours. (we need to address this as a matter or urgency not just replacing Court and Afoa but getting Fitzpatrick signed up)
I would also rather have their locks, signed up for next year, than ours.

So not saying we are a better team but ignoring JJ, who needs more game time, there is not a single player at Munster at 10, 12, 13 or 15 who would get near the Ulster first XV.

JJ would make the bench imv.

If Earls is considered as a winger then I would have him in the side instead of Trimble. An argument could be made for bringing in Payne at 13 and putting Zebo at fullback in such a scenario. I would also rather have Muller than Ryan, though that is marginal. Penny doesn't have a great deal to work with in the Munster backs, but has done a reasonable job with what he has. They lack the skills to implement his game plan though.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Connor is a country mile superior to any Irish 9 at Ulster.

I would also rather have their props, signed up for next year, than ours. (we need to address this as a matter or urgency not just replacing Court and Afoa but getting Fitzpatrick signed up)
I would also rather have their locks, signed up for next year, than ours.

So not saying we are a better team but ignoring JJ, who needs more game time, there is not a single player at Munster at 10, 12, 13 or 15 who would get near the Ulster first XV.

JJ would make the bench imv.

If Earls is considered as a winger then I would have him in the side instead of Trimble.  An argument could be made for bringing in Payne at 13 and putting Zebo at fullback in such a scenario.  I would also rather have Muller than Ryan, though that is marginal.  Penny doesn't have a great deal to work with in the Munster backs, but has done a reasonable job with what he has.  They lack the skills to implement his game plan though.    

I agree with the general tenor of this discussion but ...
Don't shout at me for saying this, compared to most of the other games I have seen him play, I thought Ivan Dineen was at least half decent in this.

Funnily enough, the Munster back line does always seem to look better when Earls is playing at 13. In my opinion of course.

I like Ivan Dineen he is a very solid player who won't let Munster down, a very good club player. I don't see him in the same class as Luke Marshall in the same way I don't see Marshall in the same class as Olding but Dineen is a useful guy to have in your squad.

If Munster and Ulster merged my 10 to 15 would be

Jackson, Bowe, Marshall, Cave, Zebo, Payne
Bench: Olding/JJ, Earls

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Funnily enough, the Munster back line does always seem to look better when Earls is playing at 13.  In my opinion of course.

All that tells me is the options are worse.

A talented winger is better at 13 than a poor 13.
Doesn't make Earls a top 13

With Lualua off at the end of the season, i presume Munster are going to have to sign up yet another NIQ 13. Any obvious choices out there?

If they go for an IQ player Griffin might be available, i heard he was looking for a move away.

This gave me a bit of a laugh. At about 39 seconds there's one very unhappy Munster fan in a sea of Ulster supporters who seems to be looking right at the camera. Bottom right hand corner;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIZf_l-598w

I had the chance to view this again. On second viewing a few things became clearer.


Keatley was worse than I remembered. As bad as his missed kicks were what really killed Munster were his missed touch finders from the penalties. On top of that the back 3 also kicked badly.


The Munster front row were good. Kilcoyne isn't making the same runs he made last season with the ball but in the scrums noone has gotten the better of him. Archer was also good. It was a big game for him and he might have helped 'Killers' chances of an Ireland call up.


POM was immense in defense. He won a few penalties from turnovers. On top of that he was falsly penalised for the 3 pointer which was as clean a steal as you'll ever see. He ripped the ball from Rodger Wilson for another turnover. There was also the forgotten incident in the first few min when he tackled the Ulster player, got on his feet and snatched the ball. It looked like another clean steal to me. Different referee interpretations I suppose. He should have won another penalty again in the second half. Again it came down to a referee interpretation.


POC was his usual self. Seemed to pop up everywhere. Duncan Casey had another good performance. He'll put Varey under serious pressure next season. He is naturally a better thrower than Varley. Dave Foley played well also.


Dineen was the best back for Munster. He is a better version of Downey. He plays a bit head down though but at least he is a ball carrying threat unlike Downey.


Munsters backs were completely outplayed by Ulster. Payne the star man but Marshall and Cave were also good IMO and I wouldn't mind seeing them start for Ireland (though Henshaw looked very good against Leinster). Jackson played well too.

profitius wrote:POM was immense in defense. He won a few penalties from turnovers. On top of that he was falsly penalised for the 3 pointer which was as clean a steal as you'll ever see. He ripped the ball from Rodger Wilson for another turnover. There was also the forgotten incident in the first few min when he tackled the Ulster player, got on his feet and snatched the ball. It looked like another clean steal to me. Different referee interpretations I suppose. He should have won another penalty again in the second half. Again it came down to a referee interpretation.

Once the ruck is formed you can't use your hands, in the incident above the ref called for him to release so it was a clear penalty.

rodders wrote:

profitius wrote:POM was immense in defense. He won a few penalties from turnovers. On top of that he was falsly penalised for the 3 pointer which was as clean a steal as you'll ever see. He ripped the ball from Rodger Wilson for another turnover. There was also the forgotten incident in the first few min when he tackled the Ulster player, got on his feet and snatched the ball. It looked like another clean steal to me. Different referee interpretations I suppose. He should have won another penalty again in the second half. Again it came down to a referee interpretation.

Once the ruck is formed you can't use your hands, in the incident above the ref called for him to release so it was a clear penalty.

You also cant play the ball on the ground if you off your feet which is cleary what one of the Ulster players was doing. I actually think that Rolland mistook one of the Ulster players for a Munster player playing the ball on the ground and penalised red instead of white.

The last POM steal I initially got wrong. I thought the Munster player didn't roll away but he did or at least tried to. What I would say is that some part of his anatomy was preventing Gilroy placing the ball though which was why he was trying to hold it back to Pienaar.

It also wasn't Rolland's call but the TJ's. O'Mahoney IMO did nowt wrong but if Gilroy was prevented from placing the ball (which he was) then to my mind it is maybe a scrum. That said I agree with Rodders. If you are told to leave it and you don't then really you're asking for bother.