Why parkland golf sucks

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Parkland golf is clearly not in the spirit of the game. It is detrimental to players and their skill levels by being over manicured and allowing shots to be played from most places with no real degree of difficultly. It also provides a much greater margin of error when compared to the greatest form of the game, links golf, in that the soft fairways will often stop a ball flying way offline after only a single bounce where on a linksland course this error would be greatly punished by the hard ground leading the ball into the catchment areas and gorse lining the fairways awaiting the long, wayward idiot from a parkland track who thinks he can overpower the track.

In addition the natural elements that have lead themselves into these wonderful links courses have meant the courses co-exist in harmony with the surrounding where a parkland track will usually have a huge amount of landfill and the environment disturbed to a massive amount by the course builders.

Yes. Parkland golf is clearly to the detriment of both golfer and the countryside.

Doon the Water wrote:Mac
Don't bother, save your money and stay in beautiful East Lothian.

SE Kent is a bit like Essex, need I say more.
NW Kent is quite nice though

NW kent is the area more like essex. SE kent couldn't be further removed from that, NW includes the likes of Dartford literally the first port of call from essex on arrival over the QE2 bridge. The place is full of chavs. SE kent Romney, Hythe, Dymchurch all coastal towns cant see how any are essex like. Unless your talking about Margate kents own South End! But every where has those.

As for the golf, I challenge any man to find a better collecion of Links than, Littlestone, Royal Cinque Ports, Royal St Georges and Princes. Was a member at one, played championship golf on 2 others, and love returning to the other.

Far better than any course i've played in scotland, and I love Carnoustie. As for th esea coming ino action well it doesn't really at RCP unless you crack one over the sea barrier! But us a great test especially when the breeze is up. AS for Princess I defy anyone to play along the very edge of the nudist beach and not take in the sights, and hazards there!

Knatts Valley and the area around Sevenoaks is a nice but most of Kent is flatlands, nearly as bad as the Fens.

Sevenoaks fine example of a great parkland course there Knowle Park. Beautiful course some lovely valleys deer roam the fairways and was home to Samuel Ryder

Here in the states there are some exceptional parkland courses. Courses chock full of strategy, nuance and (gasp to some) even some excellent use of trees (or bunkers in the sky). In the Philadelphia area some highlights are Merion (Wilson), Aronimink (Ross), Rolling Green, Huntington Valley (Flynn), Gulph Mills (Ross). New York, Chicago, Minneapolis and many other cities/areas share similar riches.

Now no one has to convince me about the beauty and challenge of Links or Heathland courses, but more than one to skin a cat as they say.

Shotrock wrote:Here in the states there are some exceptional parkland courses. Courses chock full of strategy, nuance and (gasp to some) even some excellent use of trees (or bunkers in the sky). In the Philadelphia area some highlights are Merion (Wilson), Aronimink (Ross), Rolling Green, Huntington Valley (Flynn), Gulph Mills (Ross). New York, Chicago, Minneapolis and many other cities/areas share similar riches.

Now no one has to convince me about the beauty and challenge of Links or Heathland courses, but more than one to skin a cat as they say.

Shotrock, some excellent courses there but how many of them are open to Joe Public? That is one major advantage we have here in the UK, virtually all of our courses are open to all, providing you have the funds of course

Shotrock wrote:Here in the states there are some exceptional parkland courses. Courses chock full of strategy, nuance and (gasp to some) even some excellent use of trees (or bunkers in the sky). In the Philadelphia area some highlights are Merion (Wilson), Aronimink (Ross), Rolling Green, Huntington Valley (Flynn), Gulph Mills (Ross). New York, Chicago, Minneapolis and many other cities/areas share similar riches.

Now no one has to convince me about the beauty and challenge of Links or Heathland courses, but more than one to skin a cat as they say.

Would you really class those courses as parkland in the sense they are not like the true parkland courses in the UK such as celtic manor or the belfry. The US courses you mention are more like the broker/sand belt courses around london as they are built on sand based soil. Great to see Flynn championed though as not many have heard of him.

Drive - True that, many of the top courses in the US are private and not open for public play. But while it may be easy to try and dismiss this as a desire for private courses to keep out any "unwashed", the issue is far more complex. Many private courses would welcome public play for a fee if they could easily. Many private courses are really struggling. Issues regarding what percent of revenue comes from public play could result in a club losing its not-for-profit status, issues regarding what current liability coverage and cost is for public v member use come into play, issues regarding true open access would (as driven by the teams of lawyers) come into play ... And guess what group least wants more public access to private clubs? Public course owners!

Mac - I will admit to ignorance on your question. Merion and Aronimink consider themselves as Parkland around here, and would (again around here) not be considered as sand-based soil (about the only example of which might be the Sand Hills area in NC).

If you are interested in GCA in the states, you will find out William Flynn did some excellent work: Shinnecock, Lancaster Country Club, Indian Creek ... a friend of mine just completed a book about him. http://www.out-and-back.net/?p=2603

shot

That's quite interesting what you say about non-profit status, I didn't realise the rules were so tight in the USA. So, how many of these private courses is it actually possible to blag a game on? Would a letter of introduction from your Club Secretary/General Manager help to open any doors? Or are they really strict about members and guests only?

It's a real pity that so many top quality courses are out of reach.

Drive - Yes, a formal introduction would certainly move things along at many private clubs. Many (most even) are far less strict on this matter. The issue becomes trying to get on the very top clubs (Cypress Point, Pine Valley, Augusta).

It's better where you live (I assume UK). I'm no one special so being able to play Swinley Forest last year was a real treat. Too bad it doesn't work like that around here.

Yeah I'm in Dorset so not too far away from all the big Surrey/Berkshire courses. Very fortunate to have played all of them. When I win the lottery I'll be heading over the pond clutching my letter of introduction

Thank you for the link shotrock, I am very interested in GCA and enjoy reading up on anything to do with the golden age. Forgot to say I had heard of this book/cd rom and was astonished at just how detail it must contain. Have you got your hands on a copy?

Mac - Just ordered it today ... should have by Saturday.

I have a copy of "The Golf Course", great as a reference tool and for obtaining easy-to-read stuff about the various architects. Almost like reading pedigrees of racehorses or rock bands.
Sr, Written by Whitten (good name for a writer when you put it like that) and Geoffrey Cornish who, of course, designed youknowwhere! I played another of his efforts, on Cape Cod: Cranberry Valley. A good walk enhanced.

Sadly it seems the "the golf course" is tricky to find in that guise and quite expensive for the edition entitles "The Architects of Golf: A Survey of Golf Course Design from Its Beginnings to the Present, with an Encyclopedic Listing of Golf Architects and Their Courses."

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0062700820/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1305886393&sr=8-1&condition=used


Will have to check the national library, surprisingly a good place to read everyone's favourite Tom Doak, book the "confidential guide".

McLaren wrote:Sadly it seems the "the golf course" is tricky to find in that guise and quite expensive for the edition entitles "The Architects of Golf: A Survey of Golf Course Design from Its Beginnings to the Present, with an Encyclopedic Listing of Golf Architects and Their Courses."

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0062700820/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1305886393&sr=8-1&condition=used


Will have to check the national library, surprisingly a good place to read everyone's favourite Tom Doak, book the "confidential guide".

Try this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Golf-Design-Robert-Trent-Jones/dp/0316472980/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1305886714&sr=8-6

LJ

Although not my taste of architecture at around £2 for a used one it has to be worth a read just to get some inside info on the industry. You also have to remember that RTJ started his career working with Stanley Thompson (he of banff springs fame) so no doubt hearing about those influences would be interesting.

Wrong idea Mac.

the book demonstrates how to play the hole in accordance with the designers intent so as to maximise your chances of scoring.

LondonJonnyO wrote:Wrong idea Mac.

the book demonstrates how to play the hole in accordance with the designers intent so as to maximise your chances of scoring.

Ahh sorry just assumed it was a GCA book, still if it is about course management we could all learn more.

Mac - A site you may want to check out, if you haven't already, is Golf Club Atlas http://www.golfclubatlas.com

Doak regularly posts there and there along with a wealth of other knowledgeable posters and GCAs. There's some incredibly silly bickering at times, but just look past that!

Shotrock

Yes I have read some of the course reviews on there and the other opinion pieces. I have often read a few of the discussion topics but getting involved in more forum action might not be good for me or my work.

Not so fast, LondonJonnyo, (or are you an imposter?).

From the fly leaf:
"Today's game of golf is what the golf course architects have made of it. Much of the excitement and challenge comes from playing new courses. 'The Golf Course' identifies the architects of the past and credits those responsible for innovations which have changed not only the appearance of golf courses, but the method of play. An amazing list of over 10,000 courses throughout the world and their architects have been compiled. Included are biographies of several hundred of the top golf course architects and a list of their courses.
'The Golf Course' is a long overdue book for all those, (including McLaren) who love the game and want to understand more about it."

I find, for instance, that William Flynn laid out his first course in Hartwellville, VT, in 1909; which is an interesting fact as I've never heard of Hartwellville.

Long story short: It is very definitely about the evolution of GCA, especially in North America, and an invaluable reference piece. McLaren would not be disappointed and I have a copy in fine condition available for $10,000.00.

McLaren wrote:

LondonJonnyO wrote:Wrong idea Mac.

the book demonstrates how to play the hole in accordance with the designers intent so as to maximise your chances of scoring.

Ahh sorry just assumed it was a GCA book, still if it is about course management we could all learn more.

It is a GCA book. But it tells you all the tricks the architects use to make things look one way when they are actually the other. Which he then takes further into how to score most effectively when faced with each type of challenge.

LJ, Kwini

I think you are talking about different books. The golf course that kwini talks about is definitely GCA and the RTJ book LJ mentioned is a mix of GCA and course management.

The Golf Course has a Foreward by RTJ (which devalues it a bit in my opinion) so maybe, maybe not.
I would say that LJ's comments about playing a hole is only to better illustrate what the architect was up to. For instance:
The 16th at Cypress Point:
"On the 16th the bold player shoots directly to the green, 220 yds away, across pounding surf some 100ft below. The cautious golfer plays short to dry land on the left, and then pitches to the green with hope of putting for a par. Without the alternative route, CP's 16th would have been a terribly penal hole, unreachable to all but a few strong golfers; with it, the 16th requires a player to choose his route before swinging." etc, etc.

I particularly like the description of Seminole: ". . . . the bunkers were positioned and constructed to convey a sense of the nearby rolling surf."

I tried to climb the fence to get a look at the 16th at cypress point, sadly a few more before must have tried it as it was damn hard to get a look. This was after ignoring all privacy signs and driving strait up into the car park, where my girlfriend was adamant we were about to get shot.

Does the story not go that it was Marion Hollins and not Dr mac that came up with routing and design for cypress's 16th.

Some great videos of people playing the 16th on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yYc5-D0Ocw&feature=related

Notice they all seem to hit woods, looks amazing.