Manny Pacquiao 2008-2013: The Fallout

Interesting snippet here on Pacquiao: http://www.fighthype.com/news/article15933.html
 
Freddie Roach has cast aspersions over Alex Ariza's involvement in Manny Pacquiao's career by claiming Ariza is "shady" and that he supplied Pacquiao with mysterious supplements throughout their time together (Roach has claimed previously that if strength and conditioning coaches (like Ariza) were eliminated from the sport then boxing's PED epidemic would alleviate significantly).
 
One wonders, as the barbs fly back and forward, whether they'll further implicate themselves in suspicious goings on (all of which impacts upon Pacquiao's career)?
 
Ariza's involvement with both Pacquiao (and indeed Amir Khan), certainly co-incided with both men's best win streaks.
 
Pacquiao managed to leap entire divisions to face Oscar De la Hoya in '08, who he retired. De la Hoya has since suffered from depression and drug problems.
 
He then proceeded to decimate the usually durable Ricky Hatton. Hatton, of course, retired and encountered similar issues to Oscar (unable to come to terms with his manner of defeat or indeed his enforced retirement).
 
Miguel Cotto was next. Pacquiao manhandled him in a manner no-one else has, including Antonio Margarito. Cotto has successfully rebuilt his career.
 
Pacquiao then pounded huge, sturdy welterweights in the guise of Josh Clottey and Antonio Margarito. Clottey's career never recovered while Margarito suffered horrendous eye damage that helped curtail his career.
 
The Filipino went on to savage Shane Mosley, knocking the iron-chinned former champion down in the process and hurting him at times with what appeared glancing blows.
 
It was at this point, with Pacquiao complaining of leg cramps during fights, that he began neglecting Ariza's strength and conditioning programme in favour of more boxing-focussed training instead: http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/15688-ariza-not-too-pleased-mannys-not-doing-strength-training
 
Pacquiao has looked less destructive since; he appeared lucky to get the nod in the Marquez rubber match, unlucky not to get the nod in the Bradley fight, was pancaked in the 4th Marquez fight, and despite teeing off on Rios for twelve rounds, couldn't put the Oxnard man away.
 
Evidence suggests that Ariza's strength and conditioning programme (that Roach has now brought into question) made Pacquiao into a monster, one that left the careers of De la Hoya, Hatton, Cotto, Clottey and Margarito in tatters.
 
Something tells me we haven't heard the last of this saga.

Roach wants to be careful because if he starts questioning this he may not like the outcome.

hazharrison wrote:
 
The Filipino went on to savage Shane Mosley, knocking the iron-chinned former champion down in the process and hurting him at times with what appeared glancing blows.
 

I wouldn't say he savaged Mosley. They were far too friendly and it was more like a glorified sparring match.

Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:

hazharrison wrote:
 
The Filipino went on to savage Shane Mosley, knocking the iron-chinned former champion down in the process and hurting him at times with what appeared glancing blows.
 

I wouldn't say he savaged Mosley. They were far too friendly and it was more like a glorified sparring match.

Perhaps savaged was a bit much, however, I've never seen Mosley flee like he did from Pacquiao.

"He has some different hitting power. He's not physically strong, but he hits pretty good, like he has a good snap or something. He's got something in his hands where he just, pop, and you can wobble. He can hurt you. ... It must be the way he throws his punches. he's not that fast... He has decent speed, but it's not like, 'Oh my God, this guy is so fast.' I felt Mayweather was faster than Pacquiao. ... With Pacquiao, he just touches you and you're already wobbling." -- Mosley on Pacquiao

Agree 'savaged' is a very loaded statement. Most people complained about the lack of action in that fight if anything and Manny got a lot of stick after it from memory. Sugar felt the power, didn't like it and went into his shell. As a result, at the time, most people used that fight as a way to laud Mayweather's performance versus detracting Manny's.

Still doesn't get away from the fact that both Manny and Floyd have only ko'd one opponent above 135lbs, an opponent they share by the name of Ricky Hatton.

Pacquiao stopped De la Hoya.

He also flattened Cotto, knocked Mosley down and admitted easing up on Clottey, Margarito and Mosley.

Manny's head hasn't increased in size like Mayweathers has.

Is it worth noting that many of the fighters discussed in this article have been associated with ped use or cheating?

Personally I have always felt that Cotto had the beating of Pacquiao if he had not  stood and traded.  Cotto has very nice footwork that he didn't use as much as he should. Like others before him he thought he could bully Manny due to the size difference.

What Ariza, Meme and others do is transparent. The boxing authorities don't do enough to try and stop what's going on.


Bottom line for me is they are all juicing.  Manny got the greatest benefits which happens to some individuals.  Manny was also a great offensive fighter, peds didn't make that happen that was genetic.

always good to make libellous comments... does wonders for you, and judging by the departed athletics section, also does wonders for the forum

kingraf wrote:always good to make libellous comments... does wonders for you, and judging by the departed athletics section, also does wonders for the forum

Here Here; in fact at the risk of sounding too harsh think MOD's need to consider banning people when such comments are made. It's not difficult to form an argument and hint at the possibility without actually being so open as to point the finger directly; ultimately putting this site at risk!

Unfair on those who work bloody hard to keep it running and also those who pay for the upkeep of this and the various other things (journal,magazine,podcasts)! Before anyone mentions it, yes it does include me hence my support of kingraf's comment!

hazharrison wrote:Pacquiao stopped De la Hoya.

He also flattened Cotto, knocked Mosley down and admitted easing up on Clottey, Margarito and Mosley.

ODLH retired.

None of those were ko wins.

Forgot PBF does have Ortiz also...

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Pacquiao stopped De la Hoya.

He also flattened Cotto, knocked Mosley down and admitted easing up on Clottey, Margarito and Mosley.

ODLH retired.

None of those were ko wins.

Forgot PBF does have Ortiz also...

Retired because he had his head punched in. A retirement or TKO is still a stoppage.

But it's not a ko, which is indicative of serious one-punch power. Manny's record above 135 simply shows he's throws and lands a lot of punches and wins by accumulation not crazy power.

hazharrison wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Pacquiao stopped De la Hoya.

He also flattened Cotto, knocked Mosley down and admitted easing up on Clottey, Margarito and Mosley.

ODLH retired.

None of those were ko wins.

Forgot PBF does have Ortiz also...

Retired because he had his head punched in. A retirement or TKO is still a stoppage.

Nothing to do with the fact he had been fighting for almost 17 years...been involved in fights at the very top for 10 of them and was for the last 5 years leading a pretty unhealthy lifestyle outside of the ring! Nope....definitely just being punched in the face by Pacman!  

I don't think Pacquiao can solely have the finger pointed at him for the Oscar fight. DeLaHoya nearly killed himself to get down to 147lbs (question marks could be raised as to how he did it).

It was noted at the fight that there were needle marks in ODLH arms where he was apparently on IV drips desperately trying to rehydrate himself. He was a shell and Manny said he felt very sorry for him.

TopHat24/7 wrote:But it's not a ko, which is indicative of serious one-punch power.  Manny's record above 135 simply shows he's throws and lands a lot of punches and wins by accumulation not crazy power.

I think he had mad power for a former featherweight.

owen10ozzy wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Pacquiao stopped De la Hoya.

He also flattened Cotto, knocked Mosley down and admitted easing up on Clottey, Margarito and Mosley.

ODLH retired.

None of those were ko wins.

Forgot PBF does have Ortiz also...

Retired because he had his head punched in. A retirement or TKO is still a stoppage.

Nothing to do with the fact he had been fighting for almost 17 years...been involved in fights at the very top for 10 of them and was for the last 5 years leading a pretty unhealthy lifestyle outside of the ring! Nope....definitely just being punched in the face by Pacman!  

Exactly right. He retired because he had his head punched in.

De La Hoya quoted after the fight that Manny had no punching power and more like bee stings.

I look at Pacquiao and Mayweathers bodies over the last 10 years that raises my doubts. Mayweather began banging the drum over random drug tests in 2010 yet won't co-operate with VADA, very fishy.

Cheers Rodders

Rodney wrote:De La Hoya quoted after the fight that Manny had no punching power and more like bee stings.

I look at Pacquiao and Mayweathers bodies over the last 10 years that raises my doubts. Mayweather began banging the drum over random drug tests in 2010 yet won't co-operate with VADA, very fishy.

Cheers Rodders

He also said:

“Wow. Those Mosley punches, those Vargas punches and those Pacquiao punches all felt the same.” I’m not saying yes or no [about whether Pacquiao might be taking performance-enhancing drugs]; I’m just saying that now people have to wonder: “Why doesn’t he want to do this? Why is it such a big deal.”

The again, he says a lot of dumb stuff.

Where's D4 when you need him (tut)

hazharrison wrote:

Rodney wrote:De La Hoya quoted after the fight that Manny had no punching power and more like bee stings.

I look at Pacquiao and Mayweathers bodies over the last 10 years that raises my doubts. Mayweather began banging the drum over random drug tests in 2010 yet won't co-operate with VADA, very fishy.

Cheers Rodders

He also said:

“Wow. Those Mosley punches, those Vargas punches and those Pacquiao punches all felt the same.” I’m not saying yes or no [about whether Pacquiao might be taking performance-enhancing drugs]; I’m just saying that now people have to wonder: “Why doesn’t he want to do this? Why is it such a big deal.”

The again, he says a lot of dumb stuff.

He also works for Golden Boy Promotions.

So did Mosley at the time.

hazharrison wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:But it's not a ko, which is indicative of serious one-punch power.  Manny's record above 135 simply shows he's throws and lands a lot of punches and wins by accumulation not crazy power.

I think he had mad power for a former featherweight.

And the same re Floyd as a former SFW? Since their ko records are on a par above 135.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:But it's not a ko, which is indicative of serious one-punch power.  Manny's record above 135 simply shows he's throws and lands a lot of punches and wins by accumulation not crazy power.

I think he had mad power for a former featherweight.

And the same re Floyd as a former SFW? Since their ko records are on a par above 135.

Clearly, though, Pacquiao has looked the more powerful of the duo.

Floyd wore Hatton down by landing pin point shots. Pacquiao nearly killed him. Floyd put a sustained whupping on Mosley in order to make his legs stiffen. Pacquiao flattened him with a grazing shot and made him run for his life. Pac also hurt Cotto -- dropped him hard, whereas Floyd couldn't make a dent.

We're not seriously arguing that both men have equal power?

hazharrison wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:But it's not a ko, which is indicative of serious one-punch power.  Manny's record above 135 simply shows he's throws and lands a lot of punches and wins by accumulation not crazy power.

I think he had mad power for a former featherweight.

And the same re Floyd as a former SFW? Since their ko records are on a par above 135.

Clearly, though, Pacquiao has looked the more powerful of the duo.

Floyd wore Hatton down by landing pin point shots. Pacquiao nearly killed him. Floyd put a sustained whupping on Mosley in order to make his legs stiffen. Pacquiao flattened him with a grazing shot and made him run for his life. Pac also hurt Cotto -- dropped him hard, whereas Floyd couldn't make a dent.

We're not seriously arguing that both men have equal power?

Against Floyd, Ricky didn't go around the ring swinging with his eyes shut and chin way up in the air.

superflyweight wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:But it's not a ko, which is indicative of serious one-punch power.  Manny's record above 135 simply shows he's throws and lands a lot of punches and wins by accumulation not crazy power.

I think he had mad power for a former featherweight.

And the same re Floyd as a former SFW? Since their ko records are on a par above 135.

Clearly, though, Pacquiao has looked the more powerful of the duo.

Floyd wore Hatton down by landing pin point shots. Pacquiao nearly killed him. Floyd put a sustained whupping on Mosley in order to make his legs stiffen. Pacquiao flattened him with a grazing shot and made him run for his life. Pac also hurt Cotto -- dropped him hard, whereas Floyd couldn't make a dent.

We're not seriously arguing that both men have equal power?

Against Floyd, Ricky didn't go around the ring swinging with his eyes shut and chin way up in the air.  

And was never in the process of winning a round by a country mile.

Cheers Rodders

These comments are all a bit odd from Roach. Maybe I am just a stick in the mud old traditionalist but ultimate responsibility for the fitness and tactics of a fighter starts and ends with the trainer, which in this instance is Freddie. Now I am not naïve enough to believe in this day and age of magic potions and various other snake oils one guy can do it all themselves (why I do not know but that’s a different debate) but surely as the trainer Roach is ultimately responsible for who is working with his fighter and what is going into that fighters body. If Ariza has been up to skullduggery (stress the word if, innocent till proven guilty) surely Roach is to some degree responsible for that.

Remember reading a book about the Tyson Douglas fight, as most of us will know the corner team there got slaughtered for not having an Endswell in the corner for Tyson, which proved necessary as the fight progressed. Cornerman Aaron Snowell stated he did not tend to put the bag together as the cut man took care of that, however he did accept that as trainer he was ultimately responsible and accepted blame for either not checking or relying on someone not up to the job. Surely a similar situation exists here, Roach should not let Ariza or anyone else within 100 miles of his fighter unless he was confident and happy they could be trusted and actually brought something worthwhile to the table.

As Pacquiao has never failed a drug test, he has no case to answer.

However, I must concede that I was absolutely astonished by his performance in the Cotto fight. I've always felt that Mayweather has the beating of Pacquiao, the only time I wavered in this belief was in the immediate aftermath of this performance.

Pacquiao absolutely demolished Cotto, a fighter I have always rated, in a way that I found truly shocking. Pacquiao was seemingly able to throw powerful, hurtful punches without having his feet planted; gliding in to range letting off 4,5,6 punch combos which were visibly shaking Cotto. Cotto himself looked out of his depth and shocked. It was so one-sided.

I also remember, on the rare occasions that Cotto was able to land any shots, Pacquiao appeared entirely untroubled by them. Cotto simply couldn't back his, naturally lighter, opponent up.

At the time, I assumed that everything was on the level and that Pacquiao was simply an ATG. An offensive fighter for the ages.

Retrospectively, I have my doubts. However, as stated, Pacquiao has never failed a drug test so, for the time being at least, he has no case to answer.

I agree, the comments from Roach are very odd. Does he dislike Ariza so much that he is willing to undermine his own achievements regarding Pacquiao's transformation, let alone the achievements of his supposed friend, Pacquiao?

"As Pacquiao has never failed a drug test, he has no case to answer."

Marion Jones never failed both a and b tests (she did fail an a test but the b test came up clean so all was good) and she was stuffing more of them down her neck than James Toney does KFC meals.

And Lance Armstrong who is now getting taken to court so previous income he received can be claimed back. Never failed a drugs test.

There is no smoke without fire and history backs that up, just saying.

We accuse someone who has not failed a test we can be sued.

We accuse someone who has failed a test we can't be sued.

Just saying.

Rowley wrote:We accuse someone who has not failed a test we can be sued.

We accuse someone who has failed a test we can't be sued.

Just saying.

Those who broke the high courts gagging order on Giggs dropping his pants and cheating on his missus weren't sued.

Internet is rife and they're not going to use each and every person or shut down the hundreds of different forums. Including the ring which has FB comments. Am sure a simple 'the views expressed on these pages are not those of the owners of this website' T&Cs line is the reason why.

Will repost what I posted on another, now deleted thread as it saves me typing it again and pretty much explains the position:

Do you have any concept how much work and correspondence it entails when someone makes a libellous comment on here and lawyers get involved? I have from instances in the past when it has happened.

If you think it is just a case of someone emails Adam, tells him where the offending post is and Adam deletes it before we all get on with our lives you are beyond naive, it is to put it bluntly a right royal pain in the arse and a shedload of work and correspondence.

The inference of this case that we are unlikely to get sued on the back of a comment made by one of you, whilst comforting does little to reduce the amount of hassle or work a dumb, ill considered comment can create, for people who would much rather actually contribute to threads about sport.

Could run with this as I don't particularly agree, but as it is time to finish up and head for a beer I will spare yourself flying in to a rage of banning me and leave it there.



Smile old boy

Correct me if I'm wrong, but while L.A. never failed a test, he did actually have a few test with "questionable" results? Also the phrase "No smoke without fire" is a lie... you can create smoke without fire and I have no idea why adults continue to use it, as if they missed chemistry or something.

Izzi wrote:"As Pacquiao has never failed a drug test, he has no case to answer."

Marion Jones never failed both a and b tests (she did fail an a test but the b test came up clean so all was good) and she was stuffing more of them down her neck than James Toney does KFC meals.

And Lance Armstrong who is now getting taken to court so previous income he received can be claimed back. Never failed a drugs test.

There is no smoke without fire and history backs that up, just saying.

I've already noted my scepticism.

What I said was, without a failed drugs test (or a host of witnesses who can attest to any wrongdoing) then Pacquiao obviously has no case to answer.

Or, to put it more bluntly, there is no case without evidence.

Rowley wrote:These comments are all a bit odd from Roach. Maybe I am just a stick in the mud old traditionalist but ultimate responsibility for the fitness and tactics of a fighter starts and ends with the trainer, which in this instance is Freddie. Now I am not naïve enough to believe in this day and age of magic potions and various other snake oils one guy can do it all themselves (why I do not know but that’s a different debate) but surely as the trainer Roach is ultimately responsible for who is working with his fighter and what is going into that fighters body. If Ariza has been up to skullduggery (stress the word if, innocent till proven guilty) surely Roach is to some degree responsible for that.

Remember reading a book about the Tyson Douglas fight, as most of us will know the corner team there got slaughtered for not having an Endswell in the corner for Tyson, which proved necessary as the fight progressed. Cornerman Aaron Snowell stated he did not tend to put the bag together as the cut man took care of that, however he did accept that as trainer he was ultimately responsible and accepted blame for either not checking or relying on someone not up to the job. Surely a similar situation exists here, Roach should not let Ariza or anyone else within 100 miles of his fighter unless he was confident and happy they could be trusted and actually brought something worthwhile to the table.

You would think the ultimate responsibility should be with the fighter when it comes to peds. As per the IOC.

Rowley is right about the libellous stuff................

However one can look at it two ways.........He's either an incredible specimen, Let's remember he was Flyweight champion at the age of 21 !!!........I'll be honest I can't see Sot Chitalada or Michael Carbajal hurting Curry or Mccallum types........

Or we can say he stinks to high heaven........Doesn't help his being linked to Ariza in this regard....

Pick one of the above.........

I know which one I believe it is...........

Success doesn't smell half as bad as having to pay your way out of being forced under litigation to disclose your ACTUAL drug test results. If there has EVER been a case for the 'no smoke without fire' adage, then it is someone paying to cover up test results.

Think what we have here is a case of a guy (Roach) who's hatred of another guy (Ariza) is so strong he's willing to hurt his own legacy to punish him.....

Can understand Roach being upset over events in China...although his behaviour was reprehensible also......

Still It gives Mayweather a reason to justify why he won't fight the FREAK of Boxing......

and I think history will show he's vindicated in that decision........

As for Mayweather's head becoming bigger........Then Strongy is hinting (like usual) of HGH......Can't see any reason why a Boxer takes that......

Find it also amusing that guys like Haz and Roddy in their constant moaning about modern Boxing being rife with PEDS forget what it was like Pre-test in the 80s / 90s...

Boxing is cleaner now than it has been for thirty years as Boxers are BEING CAUGHT!!! and that's a deterrent..

Illegal diuretics were used on COLLEGE teams back home to help students make weight for Wrestling matches and the like when I was growing up..........Not a big stretch to say struggling boxers used them back then to weigh in..........Some Boxers like Duran went from 180 - 135 for Leonard 2....Hilton from 190 - 154 for Hines.....Not that they are cheats (Hope they weren't) but it's not too much of a stretch to suggest they and others like them may have found it easier with help......Diuretics would make that job easier for sure..

Fat Greg Page and John Tate go 15 rounds at a hard pace....

When I started going to the gym in the mid-80s steroids were easy to find......and millions were using them.......Is it a stretch to suggest Boxers that feasted on the drug back then @cocaine@ which was the purge of America in the 80s would think twice about the odd dianabol.....

I won't believe modern boxing is anymore rife than it was back then.....Because If Boston had lot's of PEDS then Lord only knows what California, Vegas and florida had..

I don't believe boxing was clean in the 80's/90's -- HGH was everywhere. The USA sprinters were all on the juice -- apparently the testing from LA was swept under the carpet.

I genuinely believe it's more widespread these days, however, as there's far more emphasis placed on fighters moving through the divisions. And catching them is no deterrent -- the punishments meted out are laughable.

People are more aware of the dangers involved with juicing now as well.........HGH swells the inner organs.......Nasser el sonbatty runner up to Yates in the Olympia has just passed away..at 47......

There is more testing and more of a hoodoo against steroid use now than there was early 80's....

Only really Johnson at seoul that brought a hoodoo over the stuff.......

Beleive me PED use was rife in colleges across America in the early/mid 80s.....Sure it translated across the Boxing spectrum...

Glad you question Manny also though......Sometimes I feel like a lone wolf on here..

Not a lone wolf, just dreadfully inconsistent....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:People are more aware of the dangers involved with juicing now as well.........HGH swells the inner organs.......Nasser el sonbatty runner up to Yates in the Olympia has just passed away..at 47......

There is more testing and more of a hoodoo against steroid use now than there was early 80's....

Only really Johnson at seoul that brought a hoodoo over the stuff.......

Beleive me PED use was rife in colleges across America in the early/mid 80s.....Sure it translated across the Boxing spectrum...

Glad you question Manny also though......Sometimes I feel like a lone wolf on here..

There was a top quality documentary on the BBC recently focussing on the '88 100m final. All but one has been busted for PED use. As a kid I always believed Carl Lewis was the clean guy fighting the good fight. I used to love athletics back then but I don't bother with it now.

I agree Mate..........and they are all running faster than these guys now..

So you don't question Floyd Truss? A guy that paid to keep his results from going public if I'm not mistaken?

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:People are more aware of the dangers involved with juicing now as well.........HGH swells the inner organs.......Nasser el sonbatty runner up to Yates in the Olympia has just passed away..at 47......

There is more testing and more of a hoodoo against steroid use now than there was early 80's....

Only really Johnson at seoul that brought a hoodoo over the stuff.......

Beleive me PED use was rife in colleges across America in the early/mid 80s.....Sure it translated across the Boxing spectrum...

Glad you question Manny also though......Sometimes I feel like a lone wolf on here..

There was a top quality documentary on the BBC recently focussing on the '88 100m final. All but one has been busted for PED use. As a kid I always believed Carl Lewis was the clean guy fighting the good fight. I used to love athletics back then but I don't bother with it now.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2003/apr/18/athletics.comment

Lumbering_Jack wrote:So you don't question Floyd Truss? A guy that paid to keep his results from going public if I'm not mistaken?

Of course he doesn't.......

Lumbering_Jack wrote:So you don't question Floyd Truss? A guy that paid to keep his results from going public if I'm not mistaken?

Never said I didn't...........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:So you don't question Floyd Truss? A guy that paid to keep his results from going public if I'm not mistaken?

Never said I didn't...........

You could imagine the uproar in the Trussman household if the dishonest Manny pulled such a stunt. His wobbly ass would be ranting all over the house.

Go on Truss, question Floyd, just once.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:So you don't question Floyd Truss? A guy that paid to keep his results from going public if I'm not mistaken?

Never said I didn't...........

You could imagine the uproar in the Trussman household if the dishonest Manny pulled such a stunt. His wobbly ass would be ranting all over the house.

Go on Truss, question Floyd, just once.

You don't seem to understand that I have Manny top 20 in my ATG list and the 2nd best fighter of his generation.........You want me to mark him and Floyd down for rumor and supposition....

I don't like Floyd the man....I keep telling you..........But popshot away...