England's "monster" pack!

by Big Mac Michael Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:09 am

Whether you read this forum, the paper, or talk to a simpleton in the pub, everyone is talking about England's "monster" pack.I find this unfathomable, their pack is more or less the same weight as Ireland's.
Front row
Healy(116kg) is heavier than Marler(113kg)
Best(107kg) is lighter than Heartly(110kg)
Ross(127kg) is heavier than Cole/Wilson(112kg)
Locks
Launchbury(117kg) is heavier than POC(112kg)
Toner(124kg) is heavier than Lawes(117kg)
Back row
Wood(113kg) is heavier than POM(107kg)
Robshaw(112kg) heavier than Henry(107kg)
Vunipola(124kg) heavier than Heaslip(109kg)

Overall, Ireland's front row as a whole is heavier,Ireland's second rows as a whole are heavier, and England's back row are heavier.Where is this monster pack talk coming from?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:11 am

Big Mac Michael wrote:Whether you read this forum, the paper, or talk to a simpleton in the pub, everyone is talking about England's "monster" pack.I find this unfathomable, their pack is more or less the same weight as Ireland's.
Front row
Healy(116kg) is heavier than Marler(113kg)
Best(107kg) is lighter than Heartly(110kg)
Ross(127kg) is heavier than Cole/Wilson(112kg)
Locks
Launchbury(117kg) is heavier than POC(112kg)
Toner(124kg) is heavier than Lawes(117kg)
Back row
Wood(113kg) is heavier than POM(107kg)
Robshaw(112kg) heavier than Henry(107kg)
Vunipola(124kg) heavier than Heaslip(109kg)

Overall, Ireland's front row as a hole is heavier,Ireland's second rows as a hole are heavier, and England's back row are heavier.Where is this monster pack talk coming from?

Unfortunate

by munkian Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:12 am

Big Mac Michael wrote:Whether you read this forum, the paper, or talk to a simpleton in the pub, everyone is talking about England's "monster" pack.I find this unfathomable, their pack is more or less the same weight as Ireland's.
Front row
Healy(116kg) is heavier than Marler(113kg)
Best(107kg) is lighter than Heartly(110kg)
Ross(127kg) is heavier than Cole/Wilson(112kg)
Locks
Launchbury(117kg) is heavier than POC(112kg)
Toner(124kg) is heavier than Lawes(117kg)
Back row
Wood(113kg) is heavier than POM(107kg)
Robshaw(112kg) heavier than Henry(107kg)
Vunipola(124kg) heavier than Heaslip(109kg)

Overall, Ireland's front row as a hole is heavier,Ireland's second rows as a hole are heavier, and England's back row are heavier.Where is this monster pack talk coming from?

Daily Mail ?

by Big Mac Michael Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:14 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Big Mac Michael wrote:Whether you read this forum, the paper, or talk to a simpleton in the pub, everyone is talking about England's "monster" pack.I find this unfathomable, their pack is more or less the same weight as Ireland's.
Front row
Healy(116kg) is heavier than Marler(113kg)
Best(107kg) is lighter than Heartly(110kg)
Ross(127kg) is heavier than Cole/Wilson(112kg)
Locks
Launchbury(117kg) is heavier than POC(112kg)
Toner(124kg) is heavier than Lawes(117kg)
Back row
Wood(113kg) is heavier than POM(107kg)
Robshaw(112kg) heavier than Henry(107kg)
Vunipola(124kg) heavier than Heaslip(109kg)

Overall, Ireland's front row as a hole is heavier,Ireland's second rows as a hole are heavier, and England's back row are heavier.Where is this monster pack talk coming from?
Unfortunate

Barely gave me time to read over it, quick off the mark.

by HammerofThunor Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:23 am

The Irish pack are a holes.

Part of it comes down to prejudice. Part of it comes down to a few heavy weights (the Vunipolas for two). Also Toner is a lanky bean pole so people don't think about him being that heavy...but he is.

Also the weight measurements are highly variable depending when they're taken in a season and how often they're updated.

by lostinwales Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:25 am

Its probably good advice to stay away from simpletons in the pub

by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:31 am

Not really come across this. Thought the general consensus was that England were looking for a more mobile pack? I've also read a fair few opinions that Ireland have the edge over England in the scrum, lineout and breakdown but I'm keeping quiet about all that until Sunday!

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:31 am

I've not seen anybody call the England pack "monster".

It's more of an athletic pack than big lumps, there's only really Billy V who's particularly heavy.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:34 am

Big Mac Michael wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Big Mac Michael wrote:Whether you read this forum, the paper, or talk to a simpleton in the pub, everyone is talking about England's "monster" pack.I find this unfathomable, their pack is more or less the same weight as Ireland's.
Front row
Healy(116kg) is heavier than Marler(113kg)
Best(107kg) is lighter than Heartly(110kg)
Ross(127kg) is heavier than Cole/Wilson(112kg)
Locks
Launchbury(117kg) is heavier than POC(112kg)
Toner(124kg) is heavier than Lawes(117kg)
Back row
Wood(113kg) is heavier than POM(107kg)
Robshaw(112kg) heavier than Henry(107kg)
Vunipola(124kg) heavier than Heaslip(109kg)

Overall, Ireland's front row as a hole is heavier,Ireland's second rows as a hole are heavier, and England's back row are heavier.Where is this monster pack talk coming from?
Unfortunate
Barely gave me time to read over it, quick off the mark.

Tickled my stupid sense of humour, BMM

by Exiledinborders Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:35 am

Big Mac Michael wrote:Whether you read this forum, the paper, or talk to a simpleton in the pub, everyone is talking about England's "monster" pack.I find this unfathomable, their pack is more or less the same weight as Ireland's.
Front row
Healy(116kg) is heavier than Marler(113kg)
Best(107kg) is lighter than Heartly(110kg)
Ross(127kg) is heavier than Cole/Wilson(112kg)
Locks
Launchbury(117kg) is heavier than POC(112kg)
Toner(124kg) is heavier than Lawes(117kg)
Back row
Wood(113kg) is heavier than POM(107kg)
Robshaw(112kg) heavier than Henry(107kg)
Vunipola(124kg) heavier than Heaslip(109kg)

Overall, Ireland's front row as a whole is heavier,Ireland's second rows as a whole are heavier, and England's back row are heavier.Where is this monster pack talk coming from?

Your imagination?

by lostinwales Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:38 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not really come across this. Thought the general consensus was that England were looking for a more mobile pack? I've also read a fair few opinions that Ireland have the edge over England in the scrum, lineout and breakdown but I'm keeping quiet about all that until Sunday!

Yeah I know its not quite what is being said but looking at the England back row what comes across in some quarters is that Billy is a fat boy who runs hard with the ball but doesnt do much else, Robshaw is a slow 6.5 rather than a 7 and nobody talks about or rates Wood at all.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:43 am

At the France game it was all about the French monster pack.

If there is talk about Englands pack (source for the monster comments?) its about their quality, not their size. Its not a big pack, its one thats been picked to play a mobile game.

Which will be a shame if Ireland decide to maul their way through them.

by Exiledinborders Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:45 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:At the France game it was all about the French monster pack.

If there is talk about Englands pack (source for the monster comments?) its about their quality, not their size. Its not a big pack, its one thats been picked to play a mobile game.

Which will be a shame if Ireland decide to maul their way through them.

That is right. Against France the idea was to keep moving the French pack around. Talk of a English Monster Pack is a bit of a straw man.

by Barney McGrew did it Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:46 am

You've missed the point. It's not size - it's attitude. Grrr

by fa0019 Tue 18 Feb 2014, 9:56 am

If weight was the answer to forward dominance then Samoa and Tonga would be the world's best packs... but they often get bested by packs 50kg + lighter than them.
The SA pack is huge, often 930kg+ with the Stormers often fielding 940kg packs.... the difference is that all their players are athlete's. Yet when they play the French.... even they struggle.

The french rarely put out a pack weighing more than 850kg (compared to the test standard 900)... still the best come scrum time.

One thing about the England pack though is that recently they have gone toe to toe with the best and come up trumps grinding out results.

Last team to smash them upfront was Wales last year.

Guys like Mike Ross may be 127kg but is he a world class tighthead? Decent yes but wasn't even considered for the Lions. Its the same with Vunipola. Perhaps 130kg himself but guys even 20kg lighter are superior to him come scrum time.

by whocares Tue 18 Feb 2014, 10:02 am

Small (props) is beautiful thumbsup

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 18 Feb 2014, 10:02 am

Ben Morgan's had more than his share of packs of monster munch mind

by Scrumpy Tue 18 Feb 2014, 10:14 am

I'm heavier than all of them! Crying or Very sad

by gregortree Tue 18 Feb 2014, 10:31 am

Scrumpy wrote:I'm heavier than all of them!

So waiting for Bomber to call you up ?

by Scrumpy Tue 18 Feb 2014, 10:34 am

by gregortree Tue 18 Feb 2014, 10:41 am

well, we may need you.

by beshocked Tue 18 Feb 2014, 10:46 am

I would say England have some big forwards on the bench with Mako,Morgan and Attwood.

If Webber swapped with Youngs then there would be another beefy England player on the bench.

Generally I think the media sees England as a monster pack because of wrecking ball carriers like Billy and Morgan.

Obviously those two have taken most of the headlines when starting for England. Billy's eye catching carries have taking a lot of the attention this 6 nations for example.

As already mentioned England pack is not particularly big. I would say it's powerful and hardworking though.

by propdavid_london Tue 18 Feb 2014, 10:49 am

Ha, brilliant Scrumpy - Same here!

by gregortree Tue 18 Feb 2014, 10:52 am

David, you'd better Twitter up Bomber too, your services might be needed.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 18 Feb 2014, 11:32 am

A lot of talk about Lawes and his monster tackle

by gregortree Tue 18 Feb 2014, 11:35 am

ha ha, as in monster lunch pack ?

by yappysnap Tue 18 Feb 2014, 12:52 pm

I think it's more a comparison to last season's little kiddy pack that included Wood at 8, Johnson, Parling, Lawes at 6 before he beefed up. Then before that we had Dowson in there as well.

suddenly we have the Vunipola bro's, pie man Morgan and Attwood in there

by Metal Tiger Tue 18 Feb 2014, 1:00 pm

Not heard any discussion nor seen any articals pontificating about this monster England pack?

Are you sure you didn't imagine this? Any sources or press releases you can point us to?

by HammerofThunor Tue 18 Feb 2014, 1:03 pm

There were a few posts regarding England pack being large and the Irish having to fight above their weight. Back at the beginning of the previous thread I think. But not much was made of it.

by Geordie Tue 18 Feb 2014, 1:03 pm

suddenly we have the Vunipola bro's, pie man Morgan and Attwood in there.

So Lancaster does actually learn things...

by SneakySideStep Tue 18 Feb 2014, 1:05 pm

For a generally young group, England's pack are playing with a real maturity and, importantly, they are gaining momentum against almost every other side. Contrast it with the limp falling over that was characteristic of Steve Borthwick (and others) during his tenure as captain. Ireland have class and worldly-wise experience on their side in the front row, 2nd row and back row, so it should be a fascinating clash.

by Metal Tiger Tue 18 Feb 2014, 1:10 pm

I've got Wood in my monster pack.

Oooh now... No. Stop it missis. No tittering.

Sorry... suddenly came over Frankie Howard....

Nooooooo. Stop it.

by **rodders** Tue 18 Feb 2014, 2:03 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:There were a few posts regarding England pack being large and the Irish having to fight above their weight. Back at the beginning of the previous thread I think. But not much was made of it.

I've said it previously and believe it to be so, although am more confident now Cole is out.

I mean you can read out stats about players weights and whatever but England have a well earned reputation for having a powerful pack based on dominant display up front in recent times.

By contrast Ireland have struggled in recent years - there might have been a noticeable improvement in the last few games but this will be a real acid test for Ireland and Plumtree.

I think we have some pretty good technical forwards, Healy is a beast in the loose and O'Connell has a bit of an aura but wouldn't say we have an imposing or feared pack - especially minus O'Brien and Ferris.

by gregortree Tue 18 Feb 2014, 2:29 pm

rodders wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:There were a few posts regarding England pack being large and the Irish having to fight above their weight. Back at the beginning of the previous thread I think. But not much was made of it.

I've said it previously and believe it to be so, although am more confident now Cole is out.

I mean you can read out stats about players weights and whatever but England have a well earned reputation for having a powerful pack based on dominant display up front in recent times.By contrast Ireland have struggled in recent years - there might have been a noticeable improvement in the last few games but this will be a real acid test for Ireland and Plumtree.

I think we have some pretty good technical forwards, Healy is a beast in the loose and O'Connell has a bit of an aura but wouldn't say we have an imposing or feared pack - especially minus O'Brien and Ferris.

Rodders, I only wish Mr Walsh had seen it that way last March.

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 18 Feb 2014, 2:40 pm

Yes now that the 'hit' has been taken away it should be a lot easier to see if a player drops his bind even for Mr Walsh.

by Geordie Tue 18 Feb 2014, 3:25 pm

I dont think the England team are huge. I do think they are individually quite powerful and they have far better techniques individually ie at the breakdown where the likes of Cole and Corbs were like another set of flankers in there at times...

That can possibly give off the impression of being a bigger and stronger pack. I think this is very much following in their admiration for NZ...as they dont always put out a huge pack but they are powerful and efficient...

by gregortree Tue 18 Feb 2014, 3:28 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I dont think the England team are huge. I do think they are individually quite powerful and they have far better techniques individually ie at the breakdown where the likes of Cole and Corbs were like another set of flankers in there at times...

That can possibly give off the impression of being a bigger and stronger pack. I think this is very much following in their admiration for NZ...as they dont always put out a huge pack but they are powerful and efficient...

not since Waldron anyway Whistle

by Geordie Tue 18 Feb 2014, 3:54 pm

Yeah Waldrom....oh dear.

Well the Vunipolas and Ben Morgan are massive...but whilst the rest arent small...i wouldnt say HUGE.

by kingelderfield Tue 18 Feb 2014, 3:57 pm

Big Mac Michael wrote:Whether you read this forum, the paper, or talk to a simpleton in the pub, everyone is talking about England's "monster" pack.I find this unfathomable, their pack is more or less the same weight as Ireland's.
Front row
Healy(116kg) is heavier than Marler(113kg)
Best(107kg) is lighter than Heartly(110kg)
Ross(127kg) is heavier than Cole/Wilson(112kg) Cole is 117 kgs & Wilson 125 kgs, however neither are fit though Wilson is playingLocks
Launchbury(117kg) is heavier than POC(112kg)
Toner(124kg) is heavier than Lawes(117kg)
Back row
Wood(113kg) is heavier than POM(107kg)
Robshaw(112kg) heavier than Henry(107kg)
Vunipola(124kg) heavier than Heaslip(109kg)

Overall, Ireland's front row as a whole is heavier,Ireland's second rows as a whole are heavier, and England's back row are heavier.Where is this monster pack talk coming from?

by Jhamer25 Tue 18 Feb 2014, 4:08 pm

So their bigger, yep that's surely going to win it for England thumbsup

Stupid article who ever wrote it.

The only monster pack I can think off that lives up to it's name is the South African pack.

by GloriousEmpire Tue 18 Feb 2014, 4:17 pm

England's back row lacks balance. Robshaw is not a 7 and both vunipola and his benchmate morgan are frankly nuance free lumps who charge at rucks and the advantage line.

They lack fitness and finesse, this is the area that cripples England in the last 20 minutes.

Suspect that any talk of "monster" is probably a pejorative take on their athleticism.

by Geordie Tue 18 Feb 2014, 4:24 pm

Whatever you say GE... tomato

by Chjw131 Tue 18 Feb 2014, 4:26 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:England's back row lacks balance. Robshaw is not a 7 and both vunipola and his benchmate morgan are frankly nuance free lumps who charge at rucks and the advantage line.

They lack fitness and finesse, this is the area that cripples England in the last 20 minutes.

Suspect that any talk of "monster" is probably a pejorative take on their athleticism.

I thought you were on holiday?!

by killer938 Tue 18 Feb 2014, 4:33 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:England's back row lacks balance. Robshaw is not a 7 and both vunipola and his benchmate morgan are frankly nuance free lumps who charge at rucks and the advantage line.

They lack fitness and finesse, this is the area that cripples England in the last 20 minutes.

Suspect that any talk of "monster" is probably a pejorative take on their athleticism.

Yep, if only we had a number 8 who pick a line in the midfield, go through the gap and then have the ability and finesse to pass it inside to our centre while being tackled by 2 players so the centre could run it in untouched for a try...

by kingelderfield Tue 18 Feb 2014, 4:34 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:England's back row lacks balance. Robshaw is not a 7 and both vunipola and his benchmate morgan are frankly nuance free lumps who charge at rucks and the advantage line.

They lack fitness and finesse, this is the area that cripples England in the last 20 minutes.

Suspect that any talk of "monster" is probably a pejorative take on their athleticism.

GE any perceived merit in your piece is monumentally overshadowed by your unhealthy obsession as a trolling tragic. I earnestly suggest you take a long look in the mirror and try and understand what ails you so that you have to seek solace in such disaffecting perverse behaviour.

I wish you well old fellow.

by Cyril Tue 18 Feb 2014, 4:36 pm

Guys, there's truly no point trying to reason with GE.

I know it's difficult but the mods say we should ignore his trolling and let them deal with it (or report it if it's de-railing yet another thread about England).

It's just a shame you can't discuss England without his snide comments poking their way in all the time.

by Chjw131 Tue 18 Feb 2014, 4:36 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:England's back row lacks balance. Robshaw is not a 7 and both vunipola and his benchmate morgan are frankly nuance free lumps who charge at rucks and the advantage line.

They lack fitness and finesse, this is the area that cripples England in the last 20 minutes.

Suspect that any talk of "monster" is probably a pejorative take on their athleticism.

GE any perceived merit in your piece is monumentally overshadowed by your unhealthy obsession as a trolling tragic. I earnestly suggest you take a long look in the mirror and try and understand what ails you so that you have to seek solace in such disaffecting perverse behaviour.

I wish you well old fellow.

Well considered advice.

by GloriousEmpire Tue 18 Feb 2014, 5:11 pm

I'm entitled to an opinion surely. I don't think its a coincidence that England were undone in the first and last twenty minutes two games in a row. And when it's happening the next time, remember I pointed it out.

by fa0019 Tue 18 Feb 2014, 5:13 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:I'm entitled to an opinion surely. I don't think its a coincidence that England were undone in the first and last twenty minutes two games in a row. And when it's happening the next time, remember I pointed it out.

Although in last 2 games the last 20 mins also coincided with Tom Youngs entering the fray. I know which I think was the biggest cause of performance reduction.

by Metal Tiger Tue 18 Feb 2014, 5:16 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:England's back row lacks balance. Robshaw is not a 7 and both vunipola and his benchmate morgan are frankly nuance free lumps who charge at rucks and the advantage line.

They lack fitness and finesse, this is the area that cripples England in the last 20 minutes.

Suspect that any talk of "monster" is probably a pejorative take on their athleticism.

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