Was Sexton's Pass Really Forward?

First topic message reminder :

Ireland's second most promising move of the second half came in the form of a long cut out pass from sexton, almost in the form of one of Quade cooper's wonder deliveries.

The crowd hissed. Joubert dallied a second and then called the pass forward.

But did he fall Into the frame of reference trap?

On the same day we saw Steve Walsh question and then allow a magnificent Scottish try from what enflandglory4ever likes to call a "momentum pass".

Should Joubert have allowed play to continue and then checked with the tmo? Did he react to the crowd?

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Just heard that the IRB will use video of the incident to show refs how easy it is to spot forward passes. Personally I think it's a bit too forward to be that useful. My half-blind Granny (bless her) called that one, and she had her back to the TV and had lost her specs again. I believe the rugby fraternity are going to call blatant forward passes 'throwing a Sexton' from now on.

I thought it was forward but I'm not sure if we should necessarily be convinced about the correctness of a call confirmed by Barney's visually impaired relative especially when she wasn't even watching the game!!

I'd prefer to take advice from someone else thanks!

  

ME-109 wrote:Yeah cos two feet off the ground constitutes a high tackle..you should be more concerned at your players ineptitude with a free man outside

Aye, England should have scored anyway.

It was still high, mind

Hey Mrs P - if Barney's granny said Sexton was throwing a Sexton then that's good enough for me.   

 

I was going to ask about your Welsh ancestry Stub, but I thought the better of it having been accused of being "inflamatory" once today already!!

  

NB: This is intended as a joke and must not be viewed as expressing the true opinions of any poster, past or present. Other nationalities are also available!

I know it physically went forward with regard to the pitch, but the pass itself looked flat to me on a couple of re-watches.

Interesting that all three on field officials missed the hand in the scrum from England with 5 on the clock too. I'm trying to remember who the ref was that spotted the same infringement from France in the All Blacks test in Paris. Both matches might've been decided by the same action, and the call or lack thereof.

We must find a way to get consistency and ensure outcomes are satisfactorily meritorious.

Considering Joubert missed the multiple infringements by the ABs in the WC Final in the last 15 minutes do you think he is a poor ref?

Oh, and back to the OP.

Yes, it was forward. It wasn't even contentious.

MrsP wrote: 

I was going to ask about your Welsh ancestry Stub, but I thought the better of it having been accused of being "inflamatory" once today already!!

  

NB: This is intended as a joke and must not be viewed as expressing the true opinions of any poster, past or present. Other nationalities are also available!

Haha, read the small print and I'm calm now Mrs P - thanks!   

ME-109 wrote:Considering Joubert missed the multiple infringements by the ABs in the WC Final in the last 15 minutes do you think he is a poor ref?

So I keep hearing from some quarters, but nobody can ever point to a specific example. It's again, the same kind of vague suspicions cast at Walsh, which we established this week were more down to people disliking his assumed personality than any specific refereeing gripe.

For me, since 2011, Joubert has become too casual at the breakdown. He allows pillars (off-side, unbound ruck attendees), he allows players to compete off their feet and he allows unbound illegal ruck entry, and he allows the offensive team to seal off the ball by bridging over it. This is a dramatic change from his interpretation at the RWC and prior when he strictly kept the ruck clean.

GloriousEmpire wrote:This is a dramatic change from his interpretation at the RWC and prior when he strictly kept the ruck clean.

So youre saying that Mccaw wasnt gouged then?

Where did I say that? He clearly was, as the IRB testify, there would've been a citing had the window not been ridiculously short.

So he didnt keep the ruck clean then?

It was a maul, wasn't it?

GloriousEmpire wrote:I know it physically went forward with regard to the pitch, but the pass itself looked flat to me on a couple of re-watches.

Interesting that all three on field officials missed the hand in the scrum from England with 5 on the clock too. I'm trying to remember who the ref was that spotted the same infringement from France in the All Blacks test in Paris.  Both matches might've been decided by the same action, and the call or lack thereof.

We must find a way to get consistency and ensure outcomes are satisfactorily meritorious.

That was a far more important decision, or lack of, than the forward pass, it was a poor miss. Could I just confirm you see the key decisions like this:

- Sexton's pass was flat
- England hand in the scrum should have been penalised
- Lawes and Farrell should have been binned
- POM tackle on May wasn't high
- POC didn't obstruct Launchbury before Ireland's try
- Best shouldn't have been carded.

That about right?

Had Sexton been running fast and straight his pass would not have been forward (like the one against Scotland) but he was moving laterally, so his forward momentum alone couldn't have brought the ball that far forward, ergo it's a forward pass.

If that pass wasn't forward then we might as well all start playing a quarterback. It was hands forward, 3-4 metres forward.

The hands in the ruck thing, Ireland got a penalty anyhow so what do you want... a double penalty???

I thought England in truth were lucky to not get penalised more in the scrum albeit they weren't put under pressure like they were against Wales last year.

Ireland on the other hand should not have been awarded their try... Launchury was clearly taken out and would have been in tackle area had he not been. It was quite clear cut. If anything Robshaw and the assistants should have seen this and raised this with Joubert.

Hood83 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:I know it physically went forward with regard to the pitch, but the pass itself looked flat to me on a couple of re-watches.

Interesting that all three on field officials missed the hand in the scrum from England with 5 on the clock too. I'm trying to remember who the ref was that spotted the same infringement from France in the All Blacks test in Paris.  Both matches might've been decided by the same action, and the call or lack thereof.

We must find a way to get consistency and ensure outcomes are satisfactorily meritorious.

That was a far more important decision, or lack of, than the forward pass, it was a poor miss. Could I just confirm you see the key decisions like this:

- Sexton's pass was flat
- England hand in the scrum should have been penalised
- Lawes and Farrell should have been binned
- POM tackle on May wasn't high
- POC didn't obstruct Launchbury before Ireland's try
- Best shouldn't have been carded.

That about right?

Personally I thought the pass might've been forward. Undeniably it was a crucial call though!

Hand in the scrum was a crucial mistake.

A draw would change the whole complexion of the tournament.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:I know it physically went forward with regard to the pitch, but the pass itself looked flat to me on a couple of re-watches.

Interesting that all three on field officials missed the hand in the scrum from England with 5 on the clock too. I'm trying to remember who the ref was that spotted the same infringement from France in the All Blacks test in Paris.  Both matches might've been decided by the same action, and the call or lack thereof.

We must find a way to get consistency and ensure outcomes are satisfactorily meritorious.

That was a far more important decision, or lack of, than the forward pass, it was a poor miss. Could I just confirm you see the key decisions like this:

- Sexton's pass was flat
- England hand in the scrum should have been penalised
- Lawes and Farrell should have been binned
- POM tackle on May wasn't high
- POC didn't obstruct Launchbury before Ireland's try
- Best shouldn't have been carded.

That about right?

Personally I thought the pass might've been forward. Undeniably it was a crucial call though!

Hand in the scrum was a crucial mistake.

A draw would change the whole complexion of the tournament.

GE - but Ireland got the penalty at that scrum anyhow? So what would the required penalty be? It was first scrum, 5 minutes in... it wasn't a carded offence.

If only the losing side was better and scored more points

If only the ref only saw the naughty bits of the team that you want to lose

If only I won the lottery

If only

If

Think the case you're thinking of fa was care kicking ball back into scrum. There was another late in the game where Wood scoops it back in with his hand. Still think if you want to pick at the ref missing the high tackle which held May up slightly is a big point. Possible yellow/penalty try (at least a penalty) so early and it puts a very different complexion on the game.

fa0019 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:I know it physically went forward with regard to the pitch, but the pass itself looked flat to me on a couple of re-watches.

Interesting that all three on field officials missed the hand in the scrum from England with 5 on the clock too. I'm trying to remember who the ref was that spotted the same infringement from France in the All Blacks test in Paris.  Both matches might've been decided by the same action, and the call or lack thereof.

We must find a way to get consistency and ensure outcomes are satisfactorily meritorious.

That was a far more important decision, or lack of, than the forward pass, it was a poor miss. Could I just confirm you see the key decisions like this:

- Sexton's pass was flat
- England hand in the scrum should have been penalised
- Lawes and Farrell should have been binned
- POM tackle on May wasn't high
- POC didn't obstruct Launchbury before Ireland's try
- Best shouldn't have been carded.

That about right?

Personally I thought the pass might've been forward. Undeniably it was a crucial call though!

Hand in the scrum was a crucial mistake.

A draw would change the whole complexion of the tournament.

GE - but Ireland got the penalty at that scrum anyhow? So what would the required penalty be? It was first scrum, 5 minutes in... it wasn't a carded offence.

It was a scrum awarded to Ireland not a penalty. The scrum was in the last few minutes of the game and a penalty would have tied the game.

GG - I thought they were discussing Care's play at the first scrum. Didn't see that one myself.

fa0019 wrote:GG - I thought they were discussing Care's play at the first scrum. Didn't see that one myself.

That should have been penalised too.

Basically in the last scrum of the game Ireland had brought on a new front row and drove Englands scrum back on their ball. Rather than hooking the ball an England flanker tapped the ball back with their hand however, Ireland drove on and a scrum was awarded to them. It probably should have been a penalty for hands.

Ireland got away with plenty too Guns.

Them's the breaks.

Cyril wrote:Ireland got away with plenty too Guns.

Them's the breaks.

Yes they did alright. I have already said England were good value for the win. England have improved on last year and even on their first two games in the 6 nations this year so no complaints.

You play the ref. Its not Englands problem that Joubert is a bit of a homer.

What was the Rory Best one everyone is going on about?

If Joubert is a homer why did he ignore the high tackle after 6 min with May bearing down on the try line? He missed stuff, all refs do.

I'm not sure on the one with Best but one thing I did notice...

Best stands literally on his lineout line rather than inbetween. Is that legal?

Not sure if other hookers do this too and I only noticed it due to a specific camera angle during the match. I recall on that particular lineout Lawes reached all the way across and still was a ft or so off the ball. No chance he could have competed. That guy is not only 6'7 but apparently has an even greater wingspan.

Then again the ref and the linesman was right on shot so it must have been ok. Took me as a little odd, obviously I'm not as schooled as I thought.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If Joubert is a homer why did he ignore the high tackle after 6 min with May bearing down on the try line? He missed stuff, all refs do.

He didnt miss it. He decided it wasnt a penalty. He could have given a penalty for it IMO but was that a key decision as it was so early in the game?

GunsGerms wrote:

What was the Rory Best one everyone is going on about?

it's the penalty that Farell kicks to make it 6-10. IIRC it went something like this. England earned a penalty about midway into the Irish hald which Care takes quickly, and a couple of phases later England are two meters out, where Best makes a tackle, doesn't release and is pinged by Joubert. People are saying Best should have been binned, and there's certainly a strong case for it, though I fancy given he didn't bin Lawes he couldn't reasonably bin Best either. For me Joubert didn't want to interfere too much, so let a few things go, which as a fan makes more pleasant viewing IMO. No problem with those decisions, consistency is what teams want and you can't fault the ref there...

fa0019 wrote:I'm not sure on the one with Best but one thing I did notice...

Best stands literally on his lineout line rather than inbetween. Is that legal?

Not sure if other hookers do this too and I only noticed it due to a specific camera angle during the match. I recall on that particular lineout Lawes reached all the way across and still was a ft or so off the ball. No chance he could have competed. That guy is not only 6'7 but apparently has an even greater wingspan.

Then again the ref and the linesman was right on shot so it must have been ok. Took me as a little odd, obviously I'm not as schooled as I thought.

Lawes was up against a guy who is 6'10 though and POC one of the best line out operators in the world. He didnt win one lineout against the head and but wasnt because Best was throwing crooked.

You could say it was. A possible yellow card. England get the better start they probably deserved and it takes the game in a different direction early on. I'm just offering a clear point which suggests he wasn't being a 'homer'.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

What was the Rory Best one everyone is going on about?

it's the penalty that Farell kicks to make it 6-10. IIRC it went something like this. England earned a penalty about midway into the Irish hald which Care takes quickly, and a couple of phases later England are two meters out, where Best makes a tackle, doesn't release and is pinged by Joubert. People are saying Best should have been binned, and there's certainly a strong case for it, though I fancy given he didn't bin Lawes he couldn't reasonably bin Best either. For me Joubert didn't want to interfere too much, so let a few things go, which as a fan makes more pleasant viewing IMO. No problem with those decisions, consistency is what teams want and you can't fault the ref there...

Thanks. Im afraid Im going to have to call an Arsne Wenger on that one and admit I didnt see it.

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:Ireland got away with plenty too Guns.

Them's the breaks.

Yes they did alright. I have already said England were good value for the win. England have improved on last year and even on their first two games in the 6 nations this year so no complaints.

You play the ref. Its not Englands problem that Joubert is a bit of a homer.

What was the Rory Best one everyone is going on about?

Comments like that are just sound a bit sad I'm afraid.

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:If Joubert is a homer why did he ignore the high tackle after 6 min with May bearing down on the try line? He missed stuff, all refs do.

He didnt miss it. He decided it wasnt a penalty. He could have given a penalty for it IMO but was that a key decision as it was so early in the game?

Key decisions happy any time. If England had got a decent lead that might have knocked the stuffing out of Ireland.

It's not really different to something happening later in terms of importance.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:Ireland got away with plenty too Guns.

Them's the breaks.

Yes they did alright. I have already said England were good value for the win. England have improved on last year and even on their first two games in the 6 nations this year so no complaints.

You play the ref. Its not Englands problem that Joubert is a bit of a homer.

What was the Rory Best one everyone is going on about?

Comments like that are just sound a bit sad I'm afraid.

Why? You play the ref, whats the big deal?

It isnt the first time he has been accused of being a homer. WC final for example.

But I'll say again if he was such a homer why didn't he give a pen early on and even go further with a penalty try or yellow?

No 7&1/2 wrote:But I'll say again if he was such a homer why didn't he give a pen early on and even go further with a penalty try or yellow?

A penalty try or yellow would have been harsh because May was so low to the ground when the tackle was made. Do you think it should have been a yellow?

Was he low to the ground? He'd just received the ball stood up. It was a penalty. Could it have been a yellow? Yes as that illegal tackle held him up just enough for the 2 covering Irishmen to get across and knock the ball out of May's hand. Again refs miss things but it demonstrates he wasn't giving everything to England.

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:But I'll say again if he was such a homer why didn't he give a pen early on and even go further with a penalty try or yellow?

A penalty try or yellow would have been harsh because May was so low to the ground when the tackle was made. Do you think it should have been a yellow?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AcQlJohDYs

May is almost as tall as he can be. POM has overrun and thrown out a clothesline. I was watching with refs and coaches with the consensus being it should have been penalised. If a penalty, then it also had to be a penalty try. The welsh ref in the group stated quite fervently that he would have sinbinned POM as well as giving a PT.

However England could have avoided that if Care had moved the ball instead of trying to score himself, or Farrell had opted to take and give rather than straighten the line or May had grounded the ball.

fa0019 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:I know it physically went forward with regard to the pitch, but the pass itself looked flat to me on a couple of re-watches.

Interesting that all three on field officials missed the hand in the scrum from England with 5 on the clock too. I'm trying to remember who the ref was that spotted the same infringement from France in the All Blacks test in Paris.  Both matches might've been decided by the same action, and the call or lack thereof.

We must find a way to get consistency and ensure outcomes are satisfactorily meritorious.

That was a far more important decision, or lack of, than the forward pass, it was a poor miss. Could I just confirm you see the key decisions like this:

- Sexton's pass was flat
- England hand in the scrum should have been penalised
- Lawes and Farrell should have been binned
- POM tackle on May wasn't high
- POC didn't obstruct Launchbury before Ireland's try
- Best shouldn't have been carded.

That about right?

Personally I thought the pass might've been forward. Undeniably it was a crucial call though!

Hand in the scrum was a crucial mistake.

A draw would change the whole complexion of the tournament.

GE - but Ireland got the penalty at that scrum anyhow? So what would the required penalty be? It was first scrum, 5 minutes in... it wasn't a carded offence.

No, there was no penalty. The scrum was reset.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

For me, since 2011, Joubert has become too casual at the breakdown. He allows pillars (off-side, unbound ruck attendees), he allows players to compete off their feet and he allows unbound illegal ruck entry, and he allows the offensive team to seal off the ball by bridging over it. This is a dramatic change from his interpretation at the RWC and prior when he strictly kept the ruck clean.

Look again GE, 2 phases before the French try, Rougerie is never bound in the ruck correctly. Biggest incorrect decision of the 2011 final.

Got a clip?

http://gfycat.com/RightInexperiencedArmedcrab

Interesting. This sexton pass travelled further forward than the pass called forward by Joubert this week. But is clearly not a forward pass.

Sexton must be feeling a little bewildered.

It's actually down to whether he threw the ball forward rather than the amount it travels forward GE. I'm sure it's been discussed before.

Really? I'm sure I would've recalled such a conversation?

GE never stops looking for fault in refs when England win. It wouldn't be so bad if he knew the law but he doesn't. He quotes it but doesn't really understand it. He supports refs that officiate in games that England lose. He is a complete.........

Ah! There you are old chap!

The syntactic device you are looking for is the ellipsis, it contains just three dots "...", adding twelve extra ones just detracts from your point to be honest.

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/ellipsis.htm

Forward passes - the law remains that its about does the ball travel towards the goal-line. For replays this is judged partly on the movement of the hands and it has to be a clear and obvious forward pass to rule out a try. Its simple

Judged purely on the hands and whether it is thrown rather than travels towards the opposition try line. But it's been done alot on 606v2.

I must have missed it.