Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread Part 'x'

[monty junior]

First topic message reminder :

It is kind of weird CS that Duty considers us an elite club and the quality of players (that Wenger has signed) and our CL football as the main reasons, but then he considers Wenger a failure. It looks like a logical inconsistency to me. And I can't name 10 clubs in Europe bigger or better than we are.

Bigger - Manchester United, Liverpool, AC Milan
Better - Chelsea, Manchester City, Barcelona, Real Madrid, PSG, Bayern Munich, Dortmund/Napoli.

There we go. The first three have better history and are a "bigger" club in that respect. The other seven are just...better.

Is that why Napoli got knocked of our CL group. Dortmund is nowhere near the team they were earlier in the year when we played in CL in terms of injuries and we split with them. If you really want to measure we have to look at criteria. If it is "better" I disagree certainly with regards to Dortmund and Napoli as of right now or throughout the season. Dortmund is behind Schalke and Leverkusen and neither one of those teams are all that mighty this year. Here are the teams if I am ranking the "better" aspect

1. Bayern
2. real
3. Barca
4. Chelsea
5. PSG
6. Juventus
7. Man City
8. Atleti
9. Arsenal

So Arsenal are in the top 10, even if you would rate Dortmund who is on the skids right now as being better, which I don't. Liverpool would have a fair shout right now at coming in ahead of us. That would still put us in the top 10 in terms of quality.

Dortmund are a fairly comfortable second now and are almost certainly in to the CL quarters. Depends what you regard as elite, for me the word elite is the very very best like Bayern, Real, Barca even Man U, teams who have a history of domestic and European domination. Arsenal are the level below, certainly no disgrace.

[GSC]

Very soft that 2-0

[NickisBHAFC]

Phil Jones you clumsy idiot.

United 0-2 Liverpool. Gerrard again.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

This Rafael incident more obvious every time you watch it, he moves his hand to the ball, the ball would have gone underneath his arm because his first movement is to raise his arm, he then decides to bring it back down. That is a yellow every day of the week and twice on a Sunday, except when Mark Clattenburg is in charge.

His instinct reaction slightly, ever so slightly, goes at it. Its unfortunate that his arm is already there to make it happen, as if it were down by his side then he'd not have made the reaction due to proximity. A good ref doesnt give a yellow because he understands football.

[Born Slippy]

A bit soft but probably a pen. Class again from Stevie G.

[The Special Juan]

I'd take RVP off and move Mata central. Doesn't look bothered

Risky but I agree.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

God I wish Stevie G played for us

Soft one, but probably one

[hampo17]

This Rafael incident more obvious every time you watch it, he moves his hand to the ball, the ball would have gone underneath his arm because his first movement is to raise his arm, he then decides to bring it back down. That is a yellow every day of the week and twice on a Sunday, except when Mark Clattenburg is in charge.

His instinct reaction slightly, ever so slightly, goes at it. Its unfortunate that his arm is already there to make it happen, as if it were down by his side then he'd not have made the reaction due to proximity. A good ref doesnt give a yellow because he understands football.

A good ref doesn't say at half time that had it been going in or happened anywhere else on the pitch that he would have booked him.

[Hulking_up]

Smeg you Fergie!
Stevie G 2 - 0 Manure

[LastDamnation]

Looked like a dive to me.

Good thing I brought gerrard into my fantasy team :P

[Dolphin Ziggler]

PENALTY! IT HIT HIS HAND!

[Duty281]

Game over now, and a little bit more pressure now on Arsenal for their game this afternoon.

[NickisBHAFC]

Handball by Johnson there. Ref ignores that one.

[GSC]

I wouldn't have given it tbh. Silly from Jones but Allen goes down too easily.

That's a pen for United

[Champagne_Socialist]

So, I'm not wrong really. You were basically being picky over the choice of word. Cos actually, Nick is still right by both of your definitions. We're all right.

Well you are wrong as you tried to tell me handball does not have to be intentional when it does. Recklessness is a form of intention not just in football but in common law in the UK.

If the rule can't truly define the word then no, its quite open to interpretation. What you're saying is someone could jump for a header, jumping with their arms out quite naturally, miss the header but it hits their arm. That would be unintentional by definition of the word. Recklessness thus doesn't apply their as quite naturally do defenders jump.

I'm not gonna continue this, you're just doing what you do everyday on this place. Picking up on anything to be a swine

It is not complicated. Either you intentionally handball then it is a foul or you do not intend to touch the ball but you act in such a manner that you know your actions will lead to a handball eg sticking your arms out when trying to block a shot with your body.

All handballs need to be intentional and intention is just inferred from recklessness.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Mark Clattenburg making himself the centre of attention

Who'd have thunk it

[The Special Juan]

At last, Gerrard turns up against Utd. He's only a few years late...

[hampo17]

Agger looks like he's had a punch off Mike Tyson, black eye with in a few minutes.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

So, I'm not wrong really. You were basically being picky over the choice of word. Cos actually, Nick is still right by both of your definitions. We're all right.

Well you are wrong as you tried to tell me handball does not have to be intentional when it does. Recklessness is a form of intention not just in football but in common law in the UK.

If the rule can't truly define the word then no, its quite open to interpretation. What you're saying is someone could jump for a header, jumping with their arms out quite naturally, miss the header but it hits their arm. That would be unintentional by definition of the word. Recklessness thus doesn't apply their as quite naturally do defenders jump.

I'm not gonna continue this, you're just doing what you do everyday on this place. Picking up on anything to be a swine

It is not complicated. Either you intentionally handball then it is a foul or you do not intend to touch the ball but you act in such a manner that you know your actions will lead to a handball  eg sticking your arms out when trying to block a shot with your body.

All handballs need to be intentional and intention is just inferred from recklessness.

Are you saying it was intentional by common use of the word?

[Hulking_up]

Mark Clattenburg making himself the centre of attention

Who'd have thunk it

Seems detrmined to send a Liverpool player off.
That's why this game is not over.

[Born Slippy]

The Johnson one shows the difficulty with the handball rule. He moved his hand towards the ball for some reason. Right decision not to give a penalty but one could certainly say it was reckless.

[GSC]

If the Rafael ones a pen, the Johnson one is. In Johnsons case he has even less excuse for it to hit his hand

[Hulking_up]

It was clumsey but in context the ball wasn't going anywhere.
Completley different to the Fabio(?) one.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Rafael. I suppose the argument would be that the ball would have been far more awkward for Johnson to defend if his handed hadnt touched it, but I think common sense suggests you dont give it

[GSC]

Even less reason to handball it. I don't see how Johnsons let off there

[Born Slippy]

Probably a booking for Flanagan there. Late and reckless.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Rodgers needs to take Flanagan off before he's sent off here

[GSC]

Ouch. Nasty one that

[GSC]

Must be RVP off Welbeck on

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The way United have dealt with the Liverpool counter attack has impressed me. There are signs they are still a good side, just keep letting themselves down.

[hampo17]

Rafael should be gone for that, another time that's a yellow.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Rafael and Flanagan appear to be in a red race

[Born Slippy]

Yeah Welbeck should have been on 10 minutes ago.

Clattenburg having an excellent game here.

[Hulking_up]

We have been quite poor in attacking. Man U are being let off a bit.

[hampo17]

I agree Hulking, we're not breaking with the same speed as we have been as if we are worried about what could come back the other way.

[GSC]

What on earth is Flanagan doing

You can really see why United need more in CM. Fellainis laboured, Carricks been anonymous

[NickisBHAFC]

Fellani is terrible. Why on earth did United sign him ill never know.

All Liverpool.

Rafel should of gone there.

[hampo17]

2-0 down, at home who do you bring on? Tom Cleverly

[GSC]

Matas wasted wide, RVP doesn't look bothered

[Hulking_up]

15 looooong mins left

[Guest]

Clueless management. Never seen such a mess at United, no shape whatsoever. Cleverley is coming on.....

Moyes   

[GSC]

Hard chance but should be doing better

[GSC]

I don't get that. Show some balls, get RVP off

[Dolphin Ziggler]

WHAT AN AWFUL TACKLE

[Hulking_up]

OMG another pen!

[The Special Juan]

Ermagerrrrrrd.

[hampo17]

3 penalties, Vidic sent off

Shocking dive though.

[Hulking_up]

I have to say that was a dive

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Shocking shocking from Sturridge

[Born Slippy]

Ludicrous challenge from Vidic. Third penalty.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Well, that looks as bad as Boyd's drop down yesterday to me

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