England or Ireland - who is the better team?

Both team had key injuries to top class players so that isnt a factor.

Both teams were involved in the Lions tour so fatigue doesnt figure.

Despite the media's obsession with age the majority of Ireland's best players are all quite young.

England are ranked 4th and Ireland 5th and they beat Ireland by 3 points in Twickers but Ireland won the championship.

Not next year, not last year, right now the question is who is the best team?

I voted Mike Brown.

Ill second that Cyril Mike Brown.

But on a serious note...Ireland won the 6n so that would suggest they are the better team.

But England have shown a huge progression this 6n. Mostly in their attacking play.

I'll go Mike Brown too ...

In all seriousness, for me the best team always wins the 6N, so that would be Ireland.

However if you were to put both teams on a neutral ground in a one off game ...

I wish I could edit the poll to add Mike Brown but I cant sorry. Good call though. A neutral venue would be interesting but wont happen for at least another 5 years min.

Question was answered a couple of weeks back: 13-10.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Question was answered a couple of weeks back: 13-10.

Where was that game played?

If you'd asked me the question at the end of the 2011 6 Nations, I'd have said Ireland, for all that England had just won the title. Ireland had just thumped England for the seventh time in 8 encounters, so it was an easy enough call.

To a degree, the boot is on the other foot this time. The title has gone to Ireland, narrowly enough, but England have won the last four meetings between the sides. Both teams have players to add to the 23 that did duty at Twickenham this year; I have a suspicion that Yarde, Corbisiero and Cole may have been missed a little more than Ferris, O'Brien and Bowe, but either way, there's little enough in it.

For now, the answer to the question probably has to be England. Ask me again after Dublin next year.

I voted England but that is probably rose tinted glasses.

The two teams are so close it is almost impossible to split them. As GG said, England beat Ireland, but Ireland won the championship and beat France in Paris which we failed to do.

Both side have major injury problems so you can't use that to separate them. 10 points scored difference over 5 games is such a slim margin.

If England could learn to take the chances they create, I would definitely go for England, but they don't so..................

Hopefully I will be able to say England next year as they do seam to learn their lesson very quickly.

I would say given they have beaten them 3 times on the trot home and away its probably England.
They have the higher rank, have beaten teams like NZ & AUS in this RWC cycle unlike Ireland.

Potential I would say England again but....

Ireland have a very interesting RWC pool. I could see them going all the way to the final.

captain carrantuohil wrote:If you'd asked me the question at the end of the 2011 6 Nations, I'd have said Ireland, for all that England had just won the title. Ireland had just thumped England and beaten them in 7 of the previous 8 encounters, so it was an easy enough call.

To a degree, the boot is on the other foot this time. The title has gone to Ireland, narrowly enough, but England have won the last four meetings between the sides. Both teams have players to add to the 23 that did duty at Twickenham this year; I have a suspicion that Yarde, Corbisiero and Cole may have been missed a little more than Ferris, O'Brien and Bowe, but either way, there's little enough in it.

For now, the answer to the question probably has to be England. Ask me again after Dublin next year.

Corbisiero and Cole maybe but Yarde has only two caps so its fairly hard to tell if he was missed or not.

I dont really think there is a solid argument to say one is better than the other. Fans of each team will say their team is better.

If Ireland won the six nations with a Grand slam they would be better. But both teams dropped a game in an away match, only a slim points difference between them.

But if I had to pick I would say England. Just because they have had 4 wins in a row, and Ireland have now lost O'Driscoll whom is a massive loss.

Mike Brown could beat the Irish side by himself. Even with 15 BODs.

GunsGerms wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Question was answered a couple of weeks back: 13-10.

Where was that game played?

On a rugby pitch.

Next?

TopHat24/7 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Question was answered a couple of weeks back: 13-10.

Where was that game played?

On a rugby pitch.

Next?

Where was the rugby pitch?

Actually, I think Yarde was missed more than Corbisiero or Cole. Marler is not the destructive scrummager that a fully fit Corbisiero can be, but the new engagement suits him and he has become a purveyor of brutal tackles close to the ruck. We won't know until Cole is back whether his struggles in the scrum were down to the early stages of his disc trouble, but Wilson did enough against Ireland and had Jenkins in all sorts of trouble.

England seem to have decided that they can't really be bothered with scrums anyway. They were under pressure there in three games out of 5 but were still ahead on most stats. The decisive score against Ireland came from a scrambled pass off the back of a mangled scrum.

May looked a bit lost at international level and Nowell made a few too many mistakes. Yarde looked pretty much at home even on his first cap.

GunsGerms wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Question was answered a couple of weeks back: 13-10.

Where was that game played?

On a rugby pitch.

Next?

Where was the rugby pitch?

In a Land of Hope and Glory

Poorfour wrote:Actually, I think Yarde was missed more than Corbisiero or Cole. Marler is not the destructive scrummager that a fully fit Corbisiero can be, but the new engagement suits him and he has become a purveyor of brutal tackles close to the ruck. We won't know until Cole is back whether his struggles in the scrum were down to the early stages of his disc trouble, but Wilson did enough against Ireland and had Jenkins in all sorts of trouble.

England seem to have decided that they can't really be bothered with scrums anyway. They were under pressure there in three games out of 5 but were still ahead on most stats. The decisive score against Ireland came from a scrambled pass off the back of a mangled scrum.

May looked a bit lost at international level and Nowell made a few too many mistakes. Yarde looked pretty much at home even on his first cap.

His first cap was in a complete hammering of Argentina. Not really much of a test? Its hard to tell how well he would have done. I reckon Nowell showed signs of being pretty decent in the end. May possibly not so much.

Yarde offers something that neither England nor Ireland currently has (arguably the only real deficiency for either side) - blistering pace on the wing and confidence in it to match. I'd be reasonably confident that he wouldn't have passed up some of the chances that May, for example, has spurned this year.

Haha tbh I was being deliberately facetious, taking a leaf from Scratches book.

Though, a bit like GG's BOD love-in on the other thread, once again the Captain has articulated my thoughts perfectly.

Not that GG will accept any answer other than Ireland........

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:In a Land of Hope and Glory

Well that must have been an adavatage to the English then. Ill be happy to admit that if this Irish team are defeated by England in Dublin next year then England are a better side.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Haha tbh I was being deliberately facetious, taking a leaf from Scratches book.

Though, a bit like GG's BOD love-in on the other thread, once again the Captain has articulated my thoughts perfectly.

Not that GG will accept any answer other than Ireland........

Feel free to post whatever you find amuses yourself. I dont mind.

More of an honest assessment than a love in.

Are you saying Ireland have no hope, never likely to achieve glory. I though the Irish were optimists.

I think that's one of the things that is so exciting for England fans.

If we can get Corbs fit (BIG if), if as nothing else then a massive impact scrummager off the bench, Yarde to add his speed and Tuilagi either as part of a big carrying partnership with Burrell, or as a impact ball carrier off the bench, this team could go a lot further still.

Exciting times

GunsGerms wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:In a Land of Hope and Glory

Well that must have been an adavatage to the English then. Ill be happy to admit that if this Irish team are defeated by England in Dublin next year then England are a better side.

Like last year, you mean?

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Are you saying Ireland have no hope, never likely to achieve glory. I though the Irish were optimists.

What made you think that? Most arent Id say.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:In a Land of Hope and Glory

Well that must have been an adavatage to the English then. Ill be happy to admit that if this Irish team are defeated by England in Dublin next year then England are a better side.

Like last year, you mean?

Different team, different manager.

GunsGerms wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Question was answered a couple of weeks back: 13-10.

Where was that game played?

On a rugby pitch.

Next?

Where was the rugby pitch?

Where did they play the year before?

TopHat24/7 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:In a Land of Hope and Glory

Well that must have been an adavatage to the English then. Ill be happy to admit that if this Irish team are defeated by England in Dublin next year then England are a better side.

Like last year, you mean?

The question TH was who are the best side, not who were the best side.

Just being pedantic at the end of a boring day.  

England are higher ranked than Ireland. England have won 3 in a row vs Ireland. England have beaten a tri nations side more recently than Ireland. England have been the more consistent side.

Irish fans might say they are better because they got a higher points difference than England in this year's 6 nations. You could argue they got that due to 3 home games including the two weakest sides,Scotland and Italy.

That's about the only plus in Ireland's favour. More starting Lions I suppose too though that's a bit of a hollow point when you think of the amount of Lions the Welsh have.

As harsh as it is I can't really see a logical argument for Ireland being better.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Question was answered a couple of weeks back: 13-10.

Where was that game played?

On a rugby pitch.

Next?

Where was the rugby pitch?

Where did they play the year before?

Different team, different manager.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Question was answered a couple of weeks back: 13-10.

Where was that game played?

On a rugby pitch.

Next?

Where was the rugby pitch?

Where did they play the year before?

See above, GG won't let you include that.

Hence why it's a pointless thread as GG has just stacked it to make it as hard as possible to say England.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:In a Land of Hope and Glory

Well that must have been an adavatage to the English then. Ill be happy to admit that if this Irish team are defeated by England in Dublin next year then England are a better side.

Like last year, you mean?

The question TH was who are the best side, not who were the best side.

Just being pedantic at the end of a boring day.  

I intentionally phrased it that way because I expected that question.

Guns.

Don't be a d!ck   

At the moment England but I think Ireland have more scope for improvement than England pre World Cup especially given that Lancaster has had a head start on Schmit.

This time next year who knows.

This time last year a few Scots were celebrating Scotland overtaking Ireland and France and confidently had England and Wales in their sights for this season.

A year is a long time in rugby!

Pretty pointless debate.

Lets be honest if the game is in Twickenham - England are favourites
If the game is in Avvia - Ireland are favourites

Too close to call

TopHat24/7 wrote:
See above, GG won't let you include that.

Hence why it's a pointless thread as GG has just stacked it to make it as hard as possible to say England.

Feel free to state your claim for England.

Notch wrote:Guns.

Don't be a d!ck   

How am I being a dick?

Whats wrong with the question?

Perhaps rather than being overly sensitive I enourage posters to make positive contributions and weigh up the reasons why they feel their team is better right now and asess both team.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:In a Land of Hope and Glory

Well that must have been an adavatage to the English then. Ill be happy to admit that if this Irish team are defeated by England in Dublin next year then England are a better side.

Like last year, you mean?

The question TH was who are the best side, not who were the best side.

Just being pedantic at the end of a boring day.  

And if we extrapolate the pedantry, we don't know the answer unless they played this afternoon in a totally neutral stadium.

If you don't allow any other factors to be considered then any answer generated is useless.

beshocked wrote:England are higher ranked than Ireland. England have won 3 in a row vs Ireland. England have beaten a tri nations side more recently than Ireland. England have been the more consistent side.

Irish fans might say they are better because they got a higher points difference than England in this year's 6 nations. You could argue they got that due to 3 home games including the two weakest sides,Scotland and Italy.

That's about the only plus in Ireland's favour. More starting Lions I suppose too though that's a bit of a hollow point when you think of the amount of Lions the Welsh have.

As harsh as it is I can't really see a logical argument for Ireland being better.

You been reading my previous posts again Beshocked? Although I did say three weakest sides including that lot to the west but still attached. Didn't get a bite though as it is technically France.

For what it's worth the *IRB have England one place above Ireland after the latest round of matches (Updated 17th March)

England with 85.68 ranking points remain fourth and Ireland with 82.13 ranking points move to fifth from sixth.

The way they base their calculations they expect that if the game is played in England then England should just about win and if played in Ireland then probably a draw - England won by 3 points the other week at Twickenham which sort of means that the IRB may have got this one correct - very scary indeed  

* Can't post link due to new membership rules - but you can all google it (irb ranking)

geoff998rugby wrote:Pretty pointless debate.

Lets be honest if the game is in Twickenham - England are favourites
If the game is in Avvia - Ireland are favourites

Too close to call

If its too close to call then just say you think they are about even. I cant change the poll as it wont let me edit it.

GunsGerms wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:
See above, GG won't let you include that.

Hence why it's a pointless thread as GG has just stacked it to make it as hard as possible to say England.

Feel free to state you claim for England.

Been stated for me perfectly already:

beshocked wrote:England are higher ranked than Ireland. England have won 3 in a row vs Ireland. England have beaten a tri nations side more recently than Ireland. England have been the more consistent side.

Irish fans might say they are better because they got a higher points difference than England in this year's 6 nations. You could argue they got that due to 3 home games including the two weakest sides,Scotland and Italy.

That's about the only plus in Ireland's favour. More starting Lions I suppose too though that's a bit of a hollow point when you think of the amount of Lions the Welsh have.

As harsh as it is I can't really see a logical argument for Ireland being better.

captain carrantuohil wrote:If you'd asked me the question at the end of the 2011 6 Nations, I'd have said Ireland, for all that England had just won the title. Ireland had just thumped England for the seventh time in 8 encounters, so it was an easy enough call.

To a degree, the boot is on the other foot this time. The title has gone to Ireland, narrowly enough, but England have won the last four meetings between the sides. Both teams have players to add to the 23 that did duty at Twickenham this year; I have a suspicion that Yarde, Corbisiero and Cole may have been missed a little more than Ferris, O'Brien and Bowe, but either way, there's little enough in it.

For now, the answer to the question probably has to be England. Ask me again after Dublin next year.

Munster is the answer as will be found out on the 29th of March...   

GunsGerms wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:
See above, GG won't let you include that.

Hence why it's a pointless thread as GG has just stacked it to make it as hard as possible to say England.

Feel free to state your claim for England.

I did and I am proud to lay claim to it. Still not sure I am right though.

One question for irish fans.
I think they actually dont have an old a team as everyone makes out...but they do have a couple of older guys who are critical to the team. Darcy, O'Connell, possibly Ross at TH.

Now are the guys coming through now that can replace them?

ME-109 wrote:Munster is the answer as will be found out on the 29th of March...   

Do you think the Ireland team is actually Leinster or something? Personally I hope that Munster or Ulster win the Hcup this year as that is what would be best for Irish rugby. Dont really care who wins the Munster Leinster game really as nothing can top winning the six nations.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Munster is the answer as will be found out on the 29th of March...   

Do you think the Ireland team is actually Leinster or something? Personally I hope that Munster or Ulster win the Hcup this year as that is what would be best for Irish rugby. Done really care who wins the Munster Leinster game really as nothing can top winning the six nations.

I know you'll have to take my word for it but, trust me, winning the World Cup feels a lot sweeter than winning the 6 Nations.

GeordieFalcon wrote:One question for irish fans.
I think they actually dont have an old a team as everyone makes out...but they do have a couple of older guys who are critical to the team. Darcy, O'Connell, possibly Ross at TH.

Now are the guys coming through now that can replace them?

Our only undroppable player is Jonathan Sexton. POC can be replaced by Tuohy as proved v Scotland, Darcy by Marshall as seen in the Scotland game too and Ross has been replaced in every game fairly well (except v France) by Marty Moore.

Sexton by contrast has become our only indispensible player IMO.

We all thought SOB was indespensable before POM showed he can be replaced and Ferris before him.

Cyril wrote:I know you'll have to take my word for it but, trust me, winning the World Cup feels a lot sweeter than winning the 6 Nations.

Im sure it does. How does getting your first triple crown in 10 years feel? Must be good no?