Aviva Premiership Round Two

First topic message reminder :

Well round one is done, and the Aviva Premiership is most definitely back.  With over 300 points scored, 34 tries and 3 hat tricks, it was an exciting weekends rugby, that began on Friday night with Saints putting 50+ points on Gloucester, and finished on Sunday afternoon with the Chiefs doing the same to hapless London Welsh.  Sandwiched in between Bath got themselves up and running with a win on the road at Sale, and Tigers completed a comprehensive victory over the Falcons at Welford Road.  At Twickenham, the first game f the double header was great spectacle and fantastic advert for the league, with Saracens edging out Wasps courtesy of a late try.  This was followed by Quins proving to strong for a London Irish team who simply failed to turn up until half time, by which time the game had gone.


With regard predictions, I got 4 from 6 right on here, having tipped my own boys to beat Quins, and Gloucester to nick it at The Gardens.  By the time I did my Superbru predictions and put my accumulator on, I'd gone for Saints, so was 5 from 6 elsewhere, but I'm clearly not going to get rich this way unless London Irish start winning a bit more often!  Anyway, here's the table of round one of the action:

	Pos	Team	P	W	D	L	F	A	Diff	TF	TA	TBP	LBP	PTS
	1.	Exeter Chiefs	1	1	0	0	52	0	+52	7	0	1	0	5
	2.	Northampton Saints	1	1	0	0	53	6	+47	8	0	1	0	5
	3.	Leicester Tigers	1	1	0	0	36	17	+19	4	2	1	0	5
	4.	Saracens	1	1	0	0	34	28	+6	4	3	1	0	5
	5.	Bath Rugby	1	1	0	0	29	20	+9	2	2	0	0	4
	6.	Harlequins	1	1	0	0	20	15	+5	2	0	0	0	4
	7.	London Irish	1	0	0	1	15	20	-5	0	2	0	1	1
	8.	Wasps	1	0	0	1	28	34	-6	3	4	0	1	1
	9.	Sale Sharks	1	0	0	1	20	29	-9	2	2	0	0	0
	10.	Newcastle Falcons	1	0	0	1	17	36	-19	2	4	0	0	0
	11.	Gloucester	1	0	0	1	6	53	-47	0	8	0	0	0
	12.	London Welsh	1	0	0	1	0	52	-52	0	7	0	0	0

So on to this weeks fixtures, and here they are:

Friday 12th September 2014   19:45   Harlequins vs. Saracens

Two of last seasons top 4 go head to head in an early season clash of the big guns.  Both won last week, although neither were wholly convincing and have room for improvement.  Quins look very strong defensively, whilst Saracens look to have a real cutting edge in attack, which seems strange to say as I would imagine the perception of both sides would be the other way round.  Both will be fired up and wanting to lay down a marker in this one, and I expect a fiercely competitive contest, which Quins just sneak, sending Saracens home with just the losing bonus point.


Saturday 13th September 2014   15:00   Bath Rugby vs. London Welsh

It certainly doesn't get any easier for London Welsh does it.  Bath, to the surprise of their own fans on here I would imagine, managed to come back from Sale with 4 points in the bag, and should really extend their total to nine points with a big victory in this one.  Welsh, unsurprisingly for a team with 25 new players looked all over the place defensively on Sunday, and will need to improve very quickly if they are to avoid more thumpings by a similar scoreline this season.  Pride I suspect will keep it closer this weekend, but I don't see them getting anywhere near Bath this time out.


Saturday 13th September 2014   15:00   Gloucester vs. Sale Sharks

Two teams who lost in the opening round, one at home, and one in spectacular fashion on the road.  Both will want to put things right this weekend, and Gloucester will take comfort in being back in familiar surroundings at Kingsholm.  Sale will be undaunted by the atmosphere there though, having won there last season, and I would imagine the players will be keen to not incur the wrath of Steve Diamond, which is the likely outcome if they lose two on the bounce.  David Humphreys doesn't strike me as putting the same fear into his players, but you have to think that guys like Richard Hibbard, John Afoa and James Hook will all step up a gear of their own accord this weekend.  This is a really tough call, but I can see a wounded Gloucester side sneaking this at home and Sale heading back North with a losing bonus point.


Saturday 13th September 2014   15:15   Exeter Chiefs vs. Leicester Tigers

Now if you asked me last week to predict this one I had it down as an away banker.  The Chiefs I felt had not recruited particuarly well in the summer, but their win against London Welsh will have given them massive confidence ahead of hosting the Tigers this week.  I've not seen the Tigers game, but understand from others who have that they weren't at their very best, but were clinical enough to put away a spirited Falcons side.  The Chiefs will be solid and difficult to play against and Leicester will need to up their game slightly to win here I feel, but I think they will, and will head back to the East Midlands with 4 points in the bag.


Sunday 14th September 2014   14:00   Wasps vs. Northampton Saints

This could be a cracker.  I need say nothing about Saints really, as we all saw the power they have and the finishing ability to match on Friday night.  Wasps were excellent in spells against Saracens, with back row forwards Nathan Hughes and Ashley Johnson particularly outstanding, but once again failed to put in a full 80 minute performance.  They will have to manage that against the Saints, as you cannot give them anything or they will run right over you.  I'm putting this one down as the game of the round, with Saints to just edge out Wasps in an 8 or 9 try thriller which sees the home side pick up a try bonus point to go with their losing one.


Sunday 14th September 2014   15:00   Newcastle Falcons vs. London Irish

Two teams who need to win, it's that simple.  Falcons possibly didn't expect to get anything at Welford Road, but will be targeting this one big time for a win.  Irish conversely probably expected to beat Quins on Saturday, but came up short, and will know that they need this with Sarries, Saints and Tigers next up for them in the fixture list.  Whilst I would like to think that on Falcons new shiny 4G pitch this will be a fast and loose throwaround of a game, I suspect it will be a nervous, cagey arm wrestle with very little to wrote home about in terms of exciting play.  It will be tight, but I fancy is to nick it and head home with our first league win of the season under our belts.


Ozzy's predicted table after round two:

Northampton Saints 10, Bath Rugby 9, Leicester Tigers 9, Harlequins 8, Exeter Chiefs 6, Saracens 6, London Irish 5, Gloucester 4, Wasps 3, Sale Sharks 1, Newcastle Falcons 1, London Welsh 0.

I'd say it's sometimes easier to see who is on top from tv particularly around the breakdown and scrums where you have close ups and replays. Didn't see either though myself.

Ozzy3213 wrote:So what you mean is you can't tell me how you were better than us.

If you look back through the thread I've made numerous points about the game, I'm not repeating myself for somebody who's formed an opinion from watching an internet feed.

Sorry to cut the debate off but I find it hard to rate your opinion, it's just pointless.

Falcons were the better side in defeat, Irish took their opportunities and got the win. Sometimes the better side loses, that's sport.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd say it's sometimes easier to see who is on top from tv particularly around the breakdown and scrums where you have close ups and replays. Didn't see either though myself.

I totally agree, watching it on TV can give you a great perspective, watching it on the internet from a dodgy feed isn't the same. I tried to watch the Tigers game on Saturday and missed half the action.

Pooly, are you saying that falcons played better or were the better team? I view the two as very different.

On saturday I would say that in so many ways Exeter played better than Leicester. however they conceded a dumb penalty at the end of the first half to give the scoreline a flattering scoreline - then lost a lineout on their own line which saw Ben Youngs score his try.

It would be easy to argue that Exeter played better - but that tigers were the better team.

We dominated the scrum and breakdown, scored 2 tries from open play a d kicked all our points with the exception of the one that fell off the tee. You were marginally better than us in the lineout and we struggled defending the driving maul which you scored from twice. You had loads of possession in open pkay but other than Sinotis try with three minutes left you rarely troubled the tryline. Your kicker missed 6 from 7. Fair assessment of the game?

I fail to see from that how you were the 'better' side.

I have to be honest and say that as childish as this may seem I am enjoying this after having to listen to you all last week pronouncing how rubbish we are and how you would beat us and we'd finish 11th just above Welsh.

LondonTiger wrote:Pooly, are you saying that falcons played better or were the better team? I view the two as very different.

On saturday I would say that in so many ways Exeter played better than Leicester. however they conceded a dumb penalty at the end of the first half to give the scoreline a flattering scoreline - then lost a lineout on their own line which saw Ben Youngs score his try.

It would be easy to argue that Exeter played better - but that tigers were the better team.

Kicking penalties to touch with Kitchener burgling opposing line-out ball at will did not Exeter a better team make...

Well lets see who is towards the bottom of the table come the start of euro action.

LI face Sarries (h) Tigers (a) Saints (h) Exeter (a) - not an easy run.
Falcons face Saints (h) Wasps (a) Exeter (h) Welsh (a) - Easier but falcons need tostart winning and have to win the last one surely
Welsh face Sale (a) Glaws (h) Quins (a) Falcons (h)




I will reserve judgement on the merits of Falcons v Irish till after round 4 - but my gut feel right now is falcons and Welsh will be fighting for 11th.

Jimpy wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Pooly, are you saying that falcons played better or were the better team? I view the two as very different.

On saturday I would say that in so many ways Exeter played better than Leicester. however they conceded a dumb penalty at the end of the first half to give the scoreline a flattering scoreline - then lost a lineout on their own line which saw Ben Youngs score his try.

It would be easy to argue that Exeter played better - but that tigers were the better team.

Kicking penalties to touch with Kitchener burgling opposing line-out ball at will did not Exeter a better team make...

Perhaps why i stated Tigers were the better team

Ozzy3213 wrote:We dominated the scrum and breakdown,  scored 2 tries from open play a d kicked all our points with the exception of the one that fell off the tee.  You were marginally better than us in the lineout and we struggled defending the driving maul which you scored from twice.   You had loads of possession in open pkay but other than Sinotis try with three minutes left you rarely troubled the tryline.  Your kicker missed 6 from 7.  Fair assessment of the game?

I fail to see from that how you were the 'better' side.

I have to be honest and say that as childish as this may seem I am enjoying this after having to listen to you all last week pronouncing how rubbish we are and how you would beat us and we'd finish 11th just above Welsh.

You didn't dominate the scrum at all, you gained a few pens which we also did.

As I siad, I can't respect your opinion as you've made it through watching a feed and I watched the game. If I hadn't have seen the game I'd sympathise with your points but it's totally pointless as I did.

You're right it is pretty childish but I wouldn't expect anything less tbh. Irish will finish 11th or 10th, they're as bad if not worse than us, they just kicked their goals yesterday.

Your scrum spent the majority of the game in reverse. You are the sole Falcons fan I've heard deny night. Your rugby network board is full of you fans bemoaning the fact that your scrum was crap.

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ozzy

If you read my post again you'll see i put....However "should have " means absolutely nothing.

Im in agreeance with you.

Its just frustrating losing to a relegation rival at home.

Probably most likey to be London Welsh though.

Welsh will be there...but on that performance Irish wont be miles ahead either...a few teams all roughly the same will be in a battle this season.

Irish's scrum may be a saviour to them...but if we're an abolsutely for the relegation battle then Irish must be considered also as overall they showed barely more than we did.

I didn't say you didn't get on top, it didn't dominate though. In fact you conceded a penalty and we scored directly from that line out. If a scrum was dominant you wouldn't expect to be driven back in your own half.

This is getting a little childish now with the smilies, lets just agree to disagree and we'll leave it at that.

Pooly i have to say you are coming across as massively bitter here. You havent won a league game since last october! We have won 7 league games since then, which isnt amazing il admit, but its a huge improvement on 0. Both sides were pretty poor yday and on that form will be 9th at best. But i really cant see at all how we are worse than you or were u are getting that from. We beat u at your place yday and spanked u by 40 a few months ago at home.

I've only stated we were the better side on the day Nick. You won by taking your points on offer, you were more efficient.

Both sides were poor and will struggle based on Sunday.

On a lighter note. How was the shiny new 'pitch' at KP?

It looked slippy initially but then played well....well it may have but neither side elected to test it by playing any attacking rugby...well bar Irish's two tries when they tried a little.

It will be interesting to see how it full fills its true role by not becoming a bog in mid winter.

GeordieFalcon wrote:It looked slippy initially but then played well....well it may have but neither side elected to test it by playing any attacking rugby...well bar Irish's two tries when they tried a little.

It will be interesting to see how it full fills its true role by not becoming a bog in mid winter.

Is it heated underground though? Part of the KP experieince was reliving the Ypres salient. What did irk however, was travelling to a game to find that it had been called off because of a frozen pitch... (called well after any visiting supporters - Leeds - would have left for the game).

Speaking of the pitch, didn't a lot of kickers have trouble adapting to the surface when Sarries started playing on their one?

No i dont think its got underground heating. Its specially made so it wont become a horrible bog through the horrible weather.

Not sure Bathman...maybe. The weather was bad ie the wind...but i dont think you can blame that...Socino just had one of those days. I hope to god thats it done and he doesnt have one again this season. We cant afford to drop 18 points a game.

What worries me more is that we have Saints on Sunday...who will be looking for blood. It could be a horror story .....

GeordieFalcon wrote:What worries me more is that we have Saints on Sunday...who will be looking for blood. It could be a horror story .....

and then Wasps away...

Yup

Just catching up on highlights.....looks like Cips had a blinder! Were the highlights reflective of the whole match?

mid_gen wrote:Just catching up on highlights.....looks like Cips had a blinder! Were the highlights reflective of the whole match?

According to HKC - yes

Starting to hope those rumours about him coming to quins are true!

So - have just watched the full match replay of Falcons v Irish (with a little fast forwarding).

The quality was really poor and debating who was better is a bit like arguing whether the Titanic or the Lusitania was better for crossing the Atlantic.

I am also convinced that the passes to Fenby for both tries (from Geraghty and Cowan) were shovelled forward.

All in all Falcons could feel hard done by, except their own performance was lacking in so many areas.

LondonTiger wrote:So - have just watched the full match replay of Falcons v Irish (with a little fast forwarding).

The quality was really poor and debating who was better is a bit like arguing whether the Titanic or the Lusitania was better for crossing the Atlantic.

I am also convinced that the passes to Fenby for both tries (from Geraghty and Cowan) were shovelled forward.

All in all Falcons could feel hard done by, except their own performance was lacking in so many areas.

Funny comparison -

Interesting hearing that B.Youngs is the new Leicester captain - another player that I find a confusing choice as captain though I guess it's working so far!

He is a real leader on the team Beshocked - and been bossing grizzled forwards around since he was 17. Things may have been different if Parling had been fit for the opening but SH is one of the better positions to captain from I would say.

LondonTiger wrote:So - have just watched the full match replay of Falcons v Irish (with a little fast forwarding).

The quality was really poor and debating who was better is a bit like arguing whether the Titanic or the Lusitania was better for crossing the Atlantic.

I am also convinced that the passes to Fenby for both tries (from Geraghty and Cowan) were shovelled forward.

All in all Falcons could feel hard done by, except their own performance was lacking in so many areas.

I'm not debating who was better, the scoreboard doesn't lie!

Ozzy3213 wrote:
I'm not debating who was better, the scoreboard doesn't lie!

Can I save that for future use?

LondonTiger wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:
I'm not debating who was better, the scoreboard doesn't lie!

Can I save that for future use?

You may.

Doesn't look like I'm going to make it out to our A game with Wasps tonight, so once the kids are in bed I'll knock up a thread for round 3!!!

LondonTiger wrote:

mid_gen wrote:Just catching up on highlights.....looks like Cips had a blinder! Were the highlights reflective of the whole match?

According to HKC - yes

Yep, he was outstanding. One dodgy pass aside he was immaculate. He did fade a bit in the 2nd half, but given his total lack of ball that is no surprise! Having watched Chiefs v Tigers I have to say he was better than Burns and I really rate Freddie. Given how well Ford is playing too Lancaster has a good headache!

Both Irish tries had question marks, especially the 2nd which was very obviously forward. There was also the conversion which didn't look like it went over.

This isn't an excuse though, you make your own luck. Falcons played the better rugby but we came away with nothing.

Yawn

On the quick view I had I thought the Falcons last try was forward - for what it's worth

HKC, if he played better than Freddie then he must have had a stormer because Burns created the first try, controlled the territory and kicked his points. Very assured performance.

Having seen the highlights Cipriani looks to have played very well.

Lancaster will be feeling pretty smug at the minute.

Absolutely Sam. I thought Freddie was excellent, which shows how good I thought Cipriani was!

Burns seems to be thriving at Tigers, if Youngs could pick up a little more they could form quite a combo.

Burns seems to be brimming with confidence. Youngs is playing well but not in top gear. Going to be interesting when Williams is match fit as he was excellent in big games last season. Be nice competition there. Mele also had a pre season so Youngs will have to find his best form soon as well. The competition should push them all on to perform.

Cipriani in great form behind an average pack. Burns and Ford thriving behind good ones. Myler going Ok at Saints and Farrell rested and looking good off the bench for Sarries. Great options as Austin said on Rugby Tonight when was the last time we had those options at 10? That's whilst Slade is covering 13 (impressive defence at the weekend) and Geraghty with a new look LI are showing definite promise.

The more I see of Slade the more I think he could be a 12 option outside of Farrell or Burns.

Geraghty not up to international standard at 10, he's far better at 12. If he gets a run there for us he could be a bolter come 6 Nations time.

As good as Geraghty was against us I don't think he's anywhere near an Int class 12, his defence is nowhere near the standard required.

His defence is absolutely fine Pooly.  He was excellent defensively last season, and has started this season in the same vein.  He has a good all round skillset now, albeit he lacks the necessary control at times to be a regular at 10.  

I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as ever, but he wouldn't let anyone down if selected at 12 for England and it will be interesting to see if he gets a run at 12 for us, just how well he can do.

Socino ran through him on numerous occasions, a better team would capitalise on that.

I like Geraghty and think he has a great attacking instinct, he's not International class by a long way though.

HongKongCherry wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

mid_gen wrote:Just catching up on highlights.....looks like Cips had a blinder! Were the highlights reflective of the whole match?

According to HKC - yes

Yep, he was outstanding. One dodgy pass aside he was immaculate. He did fade a bit in the 2nd half, but given his total lack of ball that is no surprise! Having watched Chiefs v Tigers I have to say he was better than Burns and I really rate Freddie. Given how well Ford is playing too Lancaster has a good headache!

Cipriani was mustard, despite being on the losing side. Burns is loving it at Tigers, that chip through for Allen to score was sublime. Come WC time (or even 6N time), we could be looking at Farrell hanging on by his fingernails as the encumbant 10 for England.

Ozzy3213 wrote:His defence is absolutely fine Pooly.  He was excellent defensively last season, and has started this season in the same vein.  He has a good all round skillset now, albeit he lacks the necessary control at times to be a regular at 10.  

I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as ever, but he wouldn't let anyone down if selected at 12 for England and it will be interesting to see if he gets a run at 12 for us, just how well he can do.

Shane is just too lightweight to play 12 internationally.

Jimpy wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:His defence is absolutely fine Pooly.  He was excellent defensively last season, and has started this season in the same vein.  He has a good all round skillset now, albeit he lacks the necessary control at times to be a regular at 10.  

I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as ever, but he wouldn't let anyone down if selected at 12 for England and it will be interesting to see if he gets a run at 12 for us, just how well he can do.

Shane is just too lightweight to play 12 internationally.

But Eastmond, who is smaller than Shane isn't???

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:His defence is absolutely fine Pooly.  He was excellent defensively last season, and has started this season in the same vein.  He has a good all round skillset now, albeit he lacks the necessary control at times to be a regular at 10.  

I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as ever, but he wouldn't let anyone down if selected at 12 for England and it will be interesting to see if he gets a run at 12 for us, just how well he can do.

Shane is just too lightweight to play 12 internationally.

But Eastmond, who is smaller than Shane isn't???

Eastmond wont be playing for England either I wouldn't have thought, although he is an option. Perhaps Shane is a bit bigger, but for me, he isn't international class and he can't make up for that with a few extra pounds of weight.

Not being international class is a different argument to not big enough.  I can accept the not good enough opinion, but I don't buy the not big enough one.