London Scottish in the Pro12 ?

London Scottish say they are “open-minded” over a potential switch to the Pro 12, with chairman Sir David Reid saying much will depend on Championship funding and how the future governance of the league pans out.

With Scottish established as a top-half tier two side and plans to redevelop the Richmond Athletic Ground well advanced, the ambitious Exiles are plotting the next stage of their journey from near extinction in 1999.

Close links to the SRU mean talk of a Celtic League tie-up as a ‘third Scottish pro team’ is never far from the agenda north of the border.

Sir David told The Rugby Paper: “We’re in the RFU Championship at the moment and there are possibilities around how that joins up with professional rugby: does it join up with Premiership Rugby or does it stay independently managed by the RFU? We’re open-minded, not dictating things, but we’re a participant and a responsible stakeholder so we’ll need to look at our best options.

“A lot of people would need to approve a move into the Pro12 and we’d be happy to look at all that, but in the meantime we’ve got to keep doing what we have been doing, which is to strengthen the club year-on-year by moving incomes up, bringing in further support and improving our coaching, youth and academy programmes.”

Sir David has urged the RFU to come forward with solid funding plans.

He said: “Premiership clubs are getting between £2m and £3m each and the Championship are getting just £350,000, so we believe there’s a case to provide a lot more funding to second tier rugby to keep it healthy.

“Championship clubs are doing a great job and there are some excellent players and coaches at our level. We’re providing jobs for those people and the job we’re doing for elite rugby deserves more of the pot.

“We’re looking for double the money we currently get and that would help all the Championship clubs to become a vibrant professional tier working alongside the Premiership.”


http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured ... VWuYS.dpuf

Is this just stirring up the pot by LS ? Are they just saying this because of the funding issues ?

Blackmail is a dirty word but I guess he has a bit more leverage than other championship clubs. Having said that I can't see how they would cope in the Pro12, unless the SRU are going to through money at them and then there would be all sorts of issues to deal with.

I do agree with him though, I think the second tier should get more funds and those near the top should be capable of being more self sufficient than they are.

It's not a bad idea, and would certainly provide a ready-made and relatively cheap solution to the "3rd region" debate. It should also free LS from restrictions around having a certain number of English players on the books.

I think the Irish, Welsh and Scottish community in London might well warm to visits from Leinster, Scarlets, Munster etc.

Blackmail is a dirty word but I guess he has a bit more leverage than other championship clubs. Having said that I can't see how they would cope in the Pro12, unless the SRU are going to through money at them and then there would be all sorts of issues to deal with.

What leverage does he have that other Championship clubs don't - that there's 'Scottish' in the name?


They can't play rugby in England unless they are affiliated to the RFU. And what's this idea that the Pro 12 fans have that basing a club in London is going to bring in loads of dosh?

Have they not taken any notice of what's going on in London with regards to professional rugby?

Why don't we have a London Celts side, lets merge the LW,LS,LI sides call them the London Celts, all our unions could fund the team, there would then be a sufficient fanbase, and we can all use it to blood our up and comming players in the Pro12, there could be a comitee to decide which nation has a player in which ever position, all the Celts living in London would then have a proffesional team to support. Or am I just dreaming ?

TrailApe wrote:

Blackmail is a dirty word but I guess he has a bit more leverage than other championship clubs. Having said that I can't see how they would cope in the Pro12, unless the SRU are going to through money at them and then there would be all sorts of issues to deal with.

What leverage does he have that other Championship clubs don't  - that there's 'Scottish' in the name?


They can't play rugby in England unless they are affiliated to the RFU. And what's this idea that the Pro 12 fans have that basing a club in London is going to bring in loads of dosh?

Have they not taken any notice of what's going on in London with regards to professional rugby?

I would have thought that there would be a market for this. The question is how big and will LS have suitable facilities?

TrailApe wrote:

Blackmail is a dirty word but I guess he has a bit more leverage than other championship clubs. Having said that I can't see how they would cope in the Pro12, unless the SRU are going to through money at them and then there would be all sorts of issues to deal with.

What leverage does he have that other Championship clubs don't  - that there's 'Scottish' in the name?


They can't play rugby in England unless they are affiliated to the RFU. And what's this idea that the Pro 12 fans have that basing a club in London is going to bring in loads of dosh?

Have they not taken any notice of what's going on in London with regards to professional rugby?

Firstly you can play rugby in England without being affiliated to the RFU, you just can't play in the English league system. Secondly I don't think the reference to funding is really about generating revenue from supporters in London as much as enabling the SRU to pump additional funding into LS which it might be inclined to do if LS is part of the Pro12 and able to focus on developing Scottish players.

TrailApe wrote:

Blackmail is a dirty word but I guess he has a bit more leverage than other championship clubs. Having said that I can't see how they would cope in the Pro12, unless the SRU are going to through money at them and then there would be all sorts of issues to deal with.

What leverage does he have that other Championship clubs don't  - that there's 'Scottish' in the name?


They can't play rugby in England unless they are affiliated to the RFU. And what's this idea that the Pro 12 fans have that basing a club in London is going to bring in loads of dosh?

Have they not taken any notice of what's going on in London with regards to professional rugby?

Pretty much it on the leverage. In terms of the day to day operations there is no difference between them and other championship clubs who don't have Scottish in their name.

It is hard to see how they would make real money in their current stadium, so unless there has been a change of heart with the planning the club would probably have to move further out.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

TrailApe wrote:

Blackmail is a dirty word but I guess he has a bit more leverage than other championship clubs. Having said that I can't see how they would cope in the Pro12, unless the SRU are going to through money at them and then there would be all sorts of issues to deal with.

What leverage does he have that other Championship clubs don't  - that there's 'Scottish' in the name?


They can't play rugby in England unless they are affiliated to the RFU. And what's this idea that the Pro 12 fans have that basing a club in London is going to bring in loads of dosh?

Have they not taken any notice of what's going on in London with regards to professional rugby?

Firstly you can play rugby in England without being affiliated to the RFU, you just can't play in the English league system. Secondly I don't think the reference to funding is really about generating revenue from supporters in London as much as enabling the SRU to pump additional funding into LS which it might be inclined to do if LS is part of the Pro12 and able to focus on developing Scottish players.

Well you need the RFU agreement but yes they can choose to let London Scottish be affliated with the SRU. But there is no leverage. The RFU can very easily say no. And the same would apply to all the teams, Doncaster could be affliated with IRFU or NZRU or any of the others.

It reads as though they were directly asked about the PRO12 and gave a very noncommittal answer.

As for merging LW, LI and LS, I think they would probably tell you were to go (nowhere nice). Although I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

Various English 'celtic' joining the Celtic league has been mooted in the past as come to nothing. These things get asked periodically and generally have noncommittal answers that come to nothing (why rule things out if you don't have to?).

LS actually have a level of sponsorship that most championship sides would die for and that largely explains why they have been quietly building a very decent squad, fully professional that will take them very close to the top of the league this year.

Unfortunately the top of the championship for just about every side in it, bar Worcester and Bristol, is a glass ceiling, as none of them are realistically going to be able to compete in the AP. What has happened to LW this year is a lesson to them all. Even if LS where to win the playoffs this season and given Bristol's record of ballsing it up, that is not totally beyond the realms of possibility, would they really want to move stadiums and come up into a league where they are going to get marmalised.

LS have been on an upward trajectory for many years now, both on the field and as an organisation supporting that on field performance. They have to look seriously at all options for continuing that growth. Joining the Pro 12 would be one of those, with a large potential fan base to tap into and currently a dearth of professional rugby clubs in London. The other is to make the championship genuinely more competitive and that will only happen by the RU pumping some money into all the teams. There are going to be a lot of very one sided games in that league this year and that can't be a good thing.

As a scot living in London I would love to see Pro 12 games down here, but I also understand the difficulties the SRFU would have politically with pumping money south of the border. It would not be welcome by many even if it was seen as being of benefit to Scottish rugby as a whole. I suspect that an enhanced second division would be an option welcomed by LS and most of the other championship clubs as well.

Firstly you can play rugby in England without being affiliated to the RFU, you just can't play in the English league system.

Didn't know that.

I'll retract my objections.

Go for it London Scottish!!! (although given the problems with planning permission etc how soon will London Scottish turn into Birmingham Scottish or something similair.)

BigGee wrote:Even if LS where to win the playoffs this season (...) would they really want to move stadiums and come up into a league where they are going to get marmalised.

How would joining the Pro12 be any different though?

Lowlandbrit wrote:

BigGee wrote:Even if LS where to win the playoffs this season (...) would they really want to move stadiums and come up into a league where they are going to get marmalised.

How would joining the Pro12 be any different though?

They would still need to improve their own stadium for that and plans for that are well underway apparently. I don't believe the Pro 12 have such stringent rules on stadia as the AP though, mainly due to the smaller crowds they currently pull. Edinburgh played last season in a club ground pulling in 2000 spectators or so and that caused no problems. I think by either option they are a fair way off getting to the point where they are pulling in the kind of crowds that they would need a football stadium for. getting to that point, if they ever did, would be a long and gradual process and plans for that eventuality could be made along the way.

Well if they want to throw their hat into the ring then maybe the pro 12 should wait and see how if any others want to join them and then set up a second division. Cornish pirates, Brittany, a Belgian, Dutch or German team etc. It would be the beginning of a European league.

profitius wrote:Well if they want to throw their hat into the ring then maybe the pro 12 should wait and see how if any others want to join them and then set up a second division. Cornish pirates, Brittany, a Belgian, Dutch or German team etc. It would be the beginning of a European league.

The travelling costs may be an issue but ultimately this may be the long term way to go. Other than England and France only Italy in Europe would really have the ability to set up its own league as things stand. The traditional European strongholds of wales, Ireland and Scotland will never be in a position to run their own professional leagues, the population is just not there to support it.

It is a long way off and rugby has some journey to really establish itself in these countries, but in the future who knows?

I think it is a great idea but we are overlooking one thing; its called the Pro12 not the Pro13.
Get that sorted and I think the other Pro12/13 clubs would relish a trip go London. I am sure that it will be cheaper to fly into Luton from Italy or Ireland which may well be cheaper as well as shorter than a trip up here.
Guinness would love it as there is a potential new TV market to tap into.
If, and it is an enormous if, LS do join the Guinness league, I imagine London Welsh would soon follow as they just don't have the resources or crowds to sustain them in the AP. LI are just dandy, though.

Championship 13/14 Home attendance
Clubs AVG Total HIG LOW
Bristol 5,306 58,364 8,061 4,257
Leeds Carnegie 2,316 25,473 3,297 1,870
Jersey 2,130 23,432 2,664 1,592
Bedford Blues 2,298 22,982 2,754 1,844
Cornish Pirates 1,792 21,509 3,752 1,127
Plymouth Albion 1,712 20,541 2,598 1,036
Rotherham Titans 1,641 18,051 2,349 1,257
Nottingham 1,283 15,395 1,562 1,000
London Scottish 1,259 13,851 2,155 797
London Welsh 1,374 13,742 2,006 999
Moseley 964 11,573 1,437 626
Ealing Trailfinders 855 9,400 1,691 415
Total 1,898 254,313
http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=438

Well if they did join Pro12 (as much a Pro12 decision as theirs btw) why not just move the whole kit and kaboodle of 'London' Scottish to.........em, Scotland?

Afterall, Wasps are living out of the back of van recently - Location obviously isn't sacrosanct to a professional team in these lovely days of balance sheets and 'viability' constraints - and that third Scottish team actually in Scotland would allow the three sides to form one distinct territorial unit that advances Scottish rugby at all levels, not just at the top club level.

As someone who was opposed to the briefly floated plan of the Welsh regions joining the Jeff, in the interest of balance I think it's only fair that the same concerns would apply in this case.
The process would probably need IRB approval to start with as I assume the RFU would not be happy with a club in their jurisdiction but not under their control - and what would happen to the amateur sides as presumably the whole club would have to leave the RFU structure?
Where do they fit in the Euro Cups, in particular what would happen if they got in and the two Scottish based clubs missed out - would the Scottish public and the rugby clubs be happy to see no top level rugby in Scotland but Scotlands top team playing in London ?
Where would they play - if ODP is unsuitable for LW I presume it would be the same for LS?
Too many objections to list.

RFU would need to approve it explicitly.

RFU should call their bluff and say that give them permission to try to join the pro12.

Would not end well for LS or the pro12. Expense Of traveling will not be offset by tickets, especially when LS lose £350k per a mum from the RFU. Is the SRU going to try to sub a 3rd team when they are already desperately struggling with 2? Would the other pro12 teams agree for the TV rights to be split even further with no increase overall?

This is a poorly calculated attempt to strong arm RFU and if I were the RFU I would call their bluff immediately and watch amusedly as LS backtrack on the threat

Don’t think the SRU are struggling with 2 teams, the BT deal and has really helped with that.  Both have been financially backed pretty well, not that you would know that if you have been watching the dross Edinburgh have been churning out.  You’d think they’d been given a fiver and a box of chocolates in terms of their player budget. So in terms of making up the shortfall lost from the RFU, that wouldn't (in theory) be an issue.

That said, I don’t think LS should join the Pro 12.  It would make more sense if they stayed where they are (in terms of competition), and were subsidised by the SRU, but I have absolutely no idea if that is possible from a governing body perspective.

quinsforever wrote:
This is a poorly calculated attempt to strong arm RFU and if I were the RFU I would call their bluff immediately and watch amusedly as LS backtrack on the threat

You'd back the RFU roughriding or toying with a private club, quins???

Seems a lot of Anti-Unions folks are back on a Union paycheck for this here debate Welcome home boys.

SRU could give them money. But would have zero control. Clubs can only be affiliated with 1 Union, and that has to be the Union of the competition they are competing in (they also need the approval of the country they are based in to compete in a cross border competition). And LS would still have to hit the 65% English player rule to qualify for the RFU money.

Under those terms it could work bit now sure how the SRU blazers would feel about handing over cash with no control and no strings attached. Seems unlikely.

quinsforever wrote:SRU could give them money. But would have zero control. Clubs can only be affiliated with 1 Union, and that has to be the Union of the competition they are competing in (they also need the approval of the country they are based in to compete in a cross border competition). And LS would still have to hit the 65% English player rule to qualify for the RFU money.

Under those terms it could work bit now sure how the SRU blazers would feel about handing over cash with no control and no strings attached. Seems unlikely.

More good stuff.  Very debateable on the detail but good stuff nonetheless.  You're really getting on Union message now, quins.  Late - but later is better than never.

Secret fly

Clubs are private.

But IRB rules require them to have consent of the Union in their geographical country AND any union in a country that they wish to compete in an IRB sanctioned tournament.

And for the record, I am saying the RFU should let them go and try to join the pro12. Am saying the opposite of what you claim

quinsforever wrote:And LS would still have to hit the 65% English player rule to qualify for the RFU money.

If SRU were funding them, rather than the RFU, why would they need to meet the 65% English player rule?

What are you on today?

This all came out of the welsh regions vs WRU debate, and the threat of trying to play in the Jeff.

I'm just sharing the IRB rules. Nothing to do with my view on the structure of rugby. Either clubs conform to IRB rules or they have to do a Kerry packer.

quinsforever wrote:Secret fly

Clubs are private.

But IRB rules require them to have consent of the Union in their geographical country AND any union in a country that they wish to compete in an IRB sanctioned tournament.

And for the record, I am saying the RFU should let them go and try to join the pro12. Am saying the opposite of what you claim

No you're not. You're saying you would like the RFU to call their bluff and then enjoy the RFU laughing at the implosion of intent in this Private club when they backtrack and come 'home' with their tails between their legs.

You'd enjoy that bit, quins - admit it. You'd enjoy the RFU putting the boot in there. Union lording it over an arrogant little club....

Well if their players are anything to go by i wouldnt bother...

We've taken their LH prop Eric Fry, US International- Championship LH prop of the season...and he's appalling.

I would enjoy bluff being called on ridiculous veiled threat from LS Chairman. Yes. That would be amusing. If you are going to threaten to walk off, at least be certain you can survive the trip and you have a destination you would be welcomed...

PRL/LNR's threat worked, because it wasn't a bluff.

Personally i dont like the idea of a team in England, London playing in a division with an affinity to different countries.

quinsforever wrote:What are you on today?

This all came out of the welsh regions vs WRU debate, and the threat of trying to play in the Jeff.

I'm just sharing the IRB rules. Nothing to do with my view on the structure of rugby. Either clubs conform to IRB rules or they have to do a Kerry packer.

Was this in response to my question?

quinsforever wrote:I would enjoy bluff being called on ridiculous veiled threat from LS Chairman. Yes. That would be amusing. If you are going to threaten to walk off, at least be certain you can survive the trip and you have a destination you would be welcomed...

PRL/LNR's threat worked, because it wasn't a bluff.

Why should the RFU have a role to play in any of it?  Either in 'allowing' London Scottish to join the Pro12 if they wanted to, or in saying 'you can't join the Pro12 because you're under our jurisdiction'?

I'm not against RFU bossing their territory, but in the entire debate a few months and weeks back, you and many people like you were dead against Union involvement/say in the structures of anything that had Club competition as its Heading.  
Unions should mind their own buisiness was the mantra - indeed it even went further at times, and when the IRB rule book was thrown into the argument, they too were told that they should keep their noses out of Professional club development.

So - what am I saying?  I'm saying welcome home to the truth that a particular Nation's Union has a vested interest in that particular Nation's territorial clubs...sown into law and sown into ideals of self interest.  European rugby is both a Club contest AND a Union contest....and will always be.  That's becoming clear again to non-believers now that the dust is settling

GeordieFalcon wrote:Personally i dont like the idea of a team in England, London playing in a division with an affinity to different countries.

I can see both sides, but ultimately the effect would be to open up competition and place the power with the fans. The "product" if you like will either sell or it won't. If individuals in London have no interest in supporting London Scottish being part of the Pro12, then they can stay away and the club will fail. If there is interest in the venture, and London Scottish isn't part of the English league system and receives no funding or endorsement from the RFU, then what on earth do the RFU have to do with it?

Similarly if the RFU wanted to establish the "English Exiles" in Dublin, Cardiff or Edinburgh, have them join the English league system, potentially in the Aviva, fund them and offer that product to rugby supporters in that City, why on earth should the SRU be able to block it? None of their business in my opinion.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Personally i dont like the idea of a team in England, London playing in a division with an affinity to different countries.

I can see both sides, but ultimately the effect would be to open up competition and place the power with the fans. The "product" if you like will either sell or it won't. If individuals in London have no interest in supporting London Scottish being part of the Pro12, then they can stay away and the club will fail. If there is interest in the venture, and London Scottish isn't part of the English league system and receives no funding or endorsement from the RFU, then what on earth do the RFU have to do with it?

Similarly if the RFU wanted to establish the "English Exiles" in Dublin, Cardiff or Edinburgh, have them join the English league system, potentially in the Aviva, fund them and offer that product to rugby supporters in that City, why on earth should the SRU be able to block it? None of their business in my opinion.

I agree. Is there that much difference with the NFL trying to start a London franchise?

London is in a unique position as city that is both cosmopolitan and the biggest in Western Europe by some distance. It also has excellent transport links. It should be a special case. If LS (or whoever) could prove there was a local market that could support them I cant see any reason why they shouldn't try.

If you could find the space what about a London French?

If you could find the space what about a London French?.

No no no no no no no no no no no
NON!!!!

I wouldn't make London a special case. Don't think that's fair. I'd open it up completely, if it isn't already. I don't think the IRFU, WRU or SRU should have a block anymore than the RFU.

You could have an "English Exiles" team in Cardiff for example playing in the Aviva, and finally the citizens of Cardiff could watch decent rugby on their doorstep......

p.s. the same could easily be said of Edinburgh!

funnyExiledScot wrote:I wouldn't make London a special case. Don't think that's fair. I'd open it up completely, if it isn't already. I don't think the IRFU, WRU or SRU should have a block anymore than the RFU.

You could have an "English Exiles" team in Cardiff for example playing in the Aviva, and finally the citizens of Cardiff could watch decent rugby on their doorstep......

p.s. the same could easily be said of Edinburgh!

Just thinking about the numbers. If there are 400-500k French in London it would put London into the top 4 or 5 French population centers. Looking at Wiki it suggests 180-200K irish as well. Who knows how many would list themselves as Welsh or Scottish but it might be similar

So you were happy with the idea of the Regions playing under the RFU rather than the WRU?

But the IRB don't agree anyway. The unions are largely seen as the governors of rugby within a geographical location. They certainly aren't the governors of rugby for a certain nationality. If you get rid of the geographical boundaries then what are the unions governing? Just the teams that want to be governed by them? If that happens then I think the PRL will form their own union.

As I said before, what would stop the SRU funding LS is the understandable politics of them sending money down south. If they do ever fund a third team it would have to be in Scotland, probably in Aberdeen.

Could they go it alone and largely self fund? Well despite their relatively small crowds, they do have some of the best sponsorship in their league and already fund a pretty decent side on it. They do have the name and the history to appeal to some fairly wealthy backers but it would still be a massive step up to generate the kind of income required to become a AP or a Pro 12 team.

If this does happen, it will not do so quickly. If they do continue to grow their revenues and results though in the future anything is possible. I suspect that they will want to do the ground redevelopment first and see where that takes them in terms of fan numbers.

From a Scottish perspective I think we could still do well out of them playing where they are and could send them a lot more players than we do. The championship is a good learning ground for talented young players and they would get exposure to a much higher level of rugby there than they would in Scotland.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

If you could find the space what about a London French?.

No no no no no no no no no no no
NON!!!!

In my playing days there was a London French and a London New Zealand! Both smallish clubs in the amateur era and not as established as the three main exile clubs. I shared a ferry back from Holland with London French once, my own club and them being on tour. They were a rowdy bunch who where drinking all night and damaged the bar on the ferry. They were meet by the police when we docked in Harwich!

I am not sure if either club still exists?

BigGee wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

If you could find the space what about a London French?.

No no no no no no no no no no no
NON!!!!

In my playing days there was a London French and a London New Zealand! Both smallish clubs in the amateur era and not as established as the three main exile clubs. I shared a ferry back from Holland with London French once, my own club and them being on tour. They were a rowdy bunch who where drinking all night and damaged the bar on the ferry. They were meet by the police when we docked in Harwich!

I am not sure if either club still exists?

London french RFC still exists, they train in Barnes and think have a team who plays in some local county 2nd league. not very competitive, more for the fun.

I think there is a good case that the WRU and SRU could use their member London based Exciled clubs as feeders for their national teams.

A great way to get the clubs working better, more competitive with an actual identity that reflects their glorious history.

These were teams founded by expats of the two nations and we have seen how London Irish and now similarly London Welsh are rapidly losing their National identity.

I think a London Boris team would make more sense than any of the other 'Nationality sides'
London Boris - big rambling pre-game speech, big rambling after-game speech and strictly no combs allowed in the changing rooms.

Ewt spoons, i was posting towards secret fly earlier. We are use to a bit of banter so he wouldn't have minded

BigGee wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

If you could find the space what about a London French?.

No no no no no no no no no no no
NON!!!!

In my playing days there was a London French and a London New Zealand! Both smallish clubs in the amateur era and not as established as the three main exile clubs. I shared a ferry back from Holland with London French once, my own club and them being on tour. They were a rowdy bunch who where drinking all night and damaged the bar on the ferry. They were meet by the police when we docked in Harwich!

I am not sure if either club still exists?

They still exist, I've played against them! As do London Japanese, Italian, Nigerian, South African and a lot more I'm sure!

maestegmafia wrote:I think there is a good case that the WRU and SRU could use their member London based Exciled clubs as feeders for their national teams.

A great way to get the clubs working better, more competitive with an actual identity that reflects their glorious history.

These were teams founded by expats of the two nations and we have seen how London Irish and now similarly London Welsh are rapidly losing their National identity.

THey're in the English Leagues so have to be seen to benefit England...regardless of their exiles status. They cant have a team full of Welsh ior Irish.

Interesting theres so many London exiles teams..

Ironic that we now have an England Polynesian Islands representing us....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I think there is a good case that the WRU and SRU could use their member London based Exciled clubs as feeders for their national teams.

A great way to get the clubs working better, more competitive with an actual identity that reflects their glorious history.

These were teams founded by expats of the two nations and we have seen how London Irish and now similarly London Welsh are rapidly losing their National identity.

THey're in the English Leagues so have to be seen to benefit England...regardless of their exiles status. They cant have a team full of Welsh ior Irish.

Interesting theres so many London exiles teams..

Ironic that we now have an England Polynesian Islands representing us....

You even have Polynesian Polynesians reresenting you.

Come on...good one.............. let's have a hand.

Tough being a London club simply because of the lack of space to develop a rugby club.

It's been very hard for all "London" clubs. The only way past this is a benefactor willing to be patient and pour time and money into acquiring a platform.

For London Scottish and London Welsh they are in the same catchment area as each other and Quins so it's no surprise there isn't enough room for all of them to thrive.

Now with Wasps moving to Coventry it leaves another hole in London.

Saracens have by far the biggest catchment area but don't know how to treat supporters - both current and potential. Credit where credit's due though - they have their own ground now and it counts as in London (just about). Also arguably more importantly they didn't move far.

Quins are snug and happy where they are.

London Scottish simply aren't in a position to be in the Pro12. What they need to do is attract a loyal benefactor like Bath and Saracens. Step two find somewhere they can build their own following.

Wasps had to move to Coventry because they don't have the financial backing of Saracens for example - they had to sell themselves because they were out of options.

Swansea have shown in the football that being affiliated to an English league is not necessarily a bad thing.....

What English rugby needs is to try and aid clubs in securing their own ground because ultimately that is the key to building an identity and security. It takes time of course but every club needs that foundation.