Time for Warburton to give up the captaincy

After watching Saturdays game, I think it is about time we had somebody a little more vocal as our captain, with Wales having a pen with a few minutes to go the call should have been made to kick for the corner rather than take the advantage, also we need a captain who will question the ref a little more over certain decisions, for me it is now time Warburton just concentrated on playing his game, and he should let AWJ take over the armband. The decision making on Saturday was questionable at times. We need somebody who can really rally the troops, I do not see this attribute in Sam.

Not sure leadership is really a one man job anymore. I don't think it ever was.

We were missing a lot of our most experienced players, players who we all know Warburton turns too for advice.

It is a tough call on selection, form players like Lee, Baldwin, James or experienced leaders like Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins...?

The problem with AWJ is that he disappears in matches. When you need him to be big, when you hope he stands up, he tends to drift.

Just don't think AWJ is good enough to be honest.

Warburton made mistakes sure but he also took that tap which got Wales the try in the first half no?
He is very good with referees though. One of the best IMO>

For the second time on here today I find myself defending a player that I do not rate.

Sam didn't do anything wrong as a captain IMO, with the possible exception of badgering for a yellow card when the pen try was conceded. It was clear that we were going to try an play a game where we didn't go for the posts from the off, so dabbing the ball down so we could kick to touch just didn't sit with that sort of game plan.

Totally agree SS... Warburton did nothing wrong and actually had a very good game IMO..

But...

fa0019 wrote:The problem with AWJ is that he disappears in matches. When you need him to be big, when you hope he stands up, he tends to drift.

Just don't think AWJ is good enough to be honest.

Warburton made mistakes sure but he also took that tap which got Wales the try in the first half no?
He is very good with referees though. One of the best IMO>

... are you serious fa0019... or is this just the worst WUM ever..

As for LordD, and the opening post.. You must be joking .. The last thing we need in Wales now is a change of Coaching set-up or Team Captaincy... We have to build on what we have running up to next year's RWC and not throw the baby out with the bath water...

No9 wrote:Totally agree SS... Warburton did nothing wrong and actually had a very good game IMO..

But...

fa0019 wrote:The problem with AWJ is that he disappears in matches. When you need him to be big, when you hope he stands up, he tends to drift.

Just don't think AWJ is good enough to be honest.

Warburton made mistakes sure but he also took that tap which got Wales the try in the first half no?
He is very good with referees though. One of the best IMO>

... are you serious fa0019... or is this just the worst WUM ever..

As for LordD, and the opening post.. You must be joking .. The last thing we need in Wales now is a change of Coaching set-up or Team Captaincy... We have to build on what we have running up to next year's RWC and not throw the baby out with the bath water...

What do I think AWJ does not put in the performances when he needs to? Absolutely not.

Match him up to Brodie Retallick or Eben Etzebeth? Still in that catergory?

The truth is, is he a good player.... yes. Can he put in big performances.... yes. Does he put them in when you need him to.... to be honest no, not nearly enough.
Had Gatland not been coach would he have been in the Lions test team let alone captain in Warburton's deputy... debatable, very debatable.

Maybe you think he's the best thing since sliced bread.... I've watched his career for many years and admire his skill but the problem is that just when you build him up, when you need him to put in a big performance, he drifts away.
He always looks up for it come the anthems.... not exactly what you want though is it. All passion and guts in the singing when it comes to the big games he often ask... where is he.

Your retort is like I'm knocking Bakkies Botha or Jonno.... to be truthful AWJ simply ain't in the category. Hell, Jonno's 2nd deputy (simon shaw behind Grewcock for most of his career even) showed him in 2009 what it took to be a test match no.4.

If you're happy with him as captain fine but for me a captain needs to be first and foremost the first on the teamsheet, your best player. If he doesn't have that respect than come the big moments he will be useless.

Nothing you said there is fact or based on any evidence, just your opinion. Which you are entitled to...

Is AWJ as good a Retallick, Etzebeth.. don't know, its an opinion.. My opinion, probably not. However, is he the best 2nd Row in Wales... Yes. Is he amongst the best in the BI & Eire for the Lions spot.. With POC, yes (imo)...

But this is just MY OPINION, as was yours...

My point, was you saying he "disappears in matches".. which I say is bollox.. He shows 100% commitment from start to finish (including anthems).. And that's evident by watching the games.. He doesn't "disappear" as you put it.

But as you have a strong opinion of the other, all I can assume it you want someone to bite... I took a nibble, on the basis, that your where trying to make a point, rather than WUM. Not sure now, so the nibble is all your getting from me on this.. Try fishing further down stream...

fa - a captain also needs to be a player that has the respect of the rest of the team, and in that respect, especially given the recent evens over contracts etc, I think AWJ is the man the team would look to instead of WRUburton.

If you've read my previous posts before you'd realise I'm not a wum. My retort was an answer on the question. Maybe you seen him put shifts in for the ospreys, I can't so base all my opinions on test rugby and for me whilst I think he's better then the rest I don't see anything of the consistency enough to be captain.

I don't have much time for the concept of Captain IF the team is good enough to have more than one operating at any given time.  A good team has a selection of three or four players who can chat and decide and play by ear and instincts.  The worst Captain is a guy who takes the role too seriously and coldly points to the posts (or to the corner) as experienced players around him suggest it might not be the best idea.  That's an asswhole not a Captain.  

But............ I do appreciate the symbolic nature of the role and, yes, for Wales to rejuvenate their temperament into the new year and towards the WC, maybe a change in figurehead would be refreshing for them.  That wouldn't be saying to Warburton that he's turned bad but it would be saying, simply, now it's another guy's opportunity to do the backroom chats and publicity image stuff towards the next WC

[quote="fa0019"

If you're happy with him as captain fine but for me a captain needs to be first and foremost the first on the teamsheet, your best player. If he doesn't have that respect than come the big moments he will be useless.[/quote]
fa, from what I can see, you normally post on Scottish and South African topics, so how do you reconcile the fact that John Smit regularly kept out Bismarck a few years ago as he was the Captain when most thought that he was not the best hooker, and as for Scotland their infatuation with whoever was scrum half was also the captain in 2 different eras, Blair and Cusiter 2008/10 and even more intriguing Nicol, Armstrong and Redpath from 1997/03, they ALL could not have been the BEST in those periods.

I will give more opinions on this, just so that people do not think I have made an article and then not even bothered. For me a captain needs to be a talisman, I look at Warburton, then I look at Paul O'Connell, and I will ask you all this, out of those two, who would you fear giving you a rollocking out of the two ? It does not even come close, I would like to see my captain questioning the ref once in a while, I would like to see him pulling people aside and telling them they need to give an extra 1%, I would like to see a captain belting out orders, like Scott Gibbs was doing during the 97 Lions tour, I will never forget him in the huddles at the start of the tests telling players how it is, I just do not see this in Warburton, I want a captain who has 100% respect from the players around him, I just do not think Warburton has those qualities.

What I think Warburton is though, is a class player, and if he did not have the captaincy hovering over him, then I think he could go on to become one hell of a player.

wayne wrote:[quote="fa0019"

If you're happy with him as captain fine but for me a captain needs to be first and foremost the first on the teamsheet, your best player. If he doesn't have that respect than come the big moments he will be useless.

fa, from what I can see, you normally post on Scottish and South African topics, so how do you reconcile the fact that John Smit regularly kept out Bismarck a few years ago as he was the Captain when most thought that he was not the best hooker, and as for Scotland their infatuation with whoever was scrum half was also the captain in 2 different eras, Blair and Cusiter 2008/10 and even more intriguing Nicol, Armstrong and Redpath from 1997/03, they ALL could not have been the BEST in those periods.[/quote]

What do I think? It was a disaster.

I recall Biltong and I after the Lions tour saying he should retire. Bismarck was no.1, he was no.1 in the world.

The problem was in 2010 it was almost workable... by 2011 Smit was so off the pace that it was an embarrassment. In Soweto on his 100th cap I think he dropped a tackle at the end to give NZ the victory. How could he go into the huddle under the posts and get the boks to get back into the game?
The players knew it, he knew it. But his leadership was so vital that without him the team was rudderless. Matfield always seemed to struggle at test captaincy but perhaps with more time he would have been more effective.

But he needed time and PDV was too obtuse to see this. To be honest I would have thrown it to Du Preez post lions tour.

I don't think Warburton's place is under threat and think he has very good rapport with referees. As for Jones, for him to get it I would want him to lead from the front, smash it up, smash the opposition, to dominate. Wales are good enough now to expect that from their best 4, a Lions 4 capped in the last 2 tours. I just don't see it. Players such as this develop an awe about them, a enforced respect. A fear perhaps.
You hear people going on about Thorn, Bakkies, Jonno, Etzebeth, Hines, Cudmore.... even Courtney Lawes (albeit not quite there yet but still). How many times do you ever hear this about AW Jones??? You just don't.

As as Irish fan, I just don't get why Warburton is captain. AWJ is always up for the battle, whether its Wales or the Ospreys.

There is no way a team Paul O'Connell was on would perform as poorly as Cardiff does. I'd see similar characteristics with AWJ.

Posted this elsewhere earlier

After all the fuss with the WRU and centrally contracting himself I do think Warburton has become a bit of marmite figure. I thought he had very good game and Saturday and was the most vocal I have seen him.

I do think sometimes to much is made of the captains role and a captains role these days (right or wrong) isn't just about on the pitch, its about the media side of things as well and Sam is very media friendly where as AWJ by his own admission doesn't like that type of thing.

fa0019 wrote:

wayne wrote:[quote="fa0019"

If you're happy with him as captain fine but for me a captain needs to be first and foremost the first on the teamsheet, your best player. If he doesn't have that respect than come the big moments he will be useless.

fa, from what I can see, you normally post on Scottish and South African topics, so how do you reconcile the fact that John Smit regularly kept out Bismarck a few years ago as he was the Captain when most thought that he was not the best hooker, and as for Scotland their infatuation with whoever was scrum half was also the captain in 2 different eras, Blair and Cusiter 2008/10 and even more intriguing Nicol, Armstrong and Redpath from 1997/03, they ALL could not have been the BEST in those periods.

What do I think? It was a disaster.

I recall Biltong and I after the Lions tour saying he should retire. Bismarck was no.1, he was no.1 in the world.

The problem was in 2010 it was almost workable... by 2011 Smit was so off the pace that it was an embarrassment. In Soweto on his 100th cap I think he dropped a tackle at the end to give NZ the victory. How could he go into the huddle under the posts and get the boks to get back into the game?
The players knew it, he knew it. But his leadership was so vital that without him the team was rudderless. Matfield always seemed to struggle at test captaincy but perhaps with more time he would have been more effective.

But he needed time and PDV was too obtuse to see this. To be honest I would have thrown it to Du Preez post lions tour.

I don't think Warburton's place is under threat and think he has very good rapport with referees. As for Jones, for him to get it I would want him to lead from the front, smash it up, smash the opposition, to dominate. Wales are good enough now to expect that from their best 4, a Lions 4 capped in the last 2 tours. I just don't see it. Players such as this develop an awe about them, a enforced respect. A fear perhaps.
You hear people going on about Thorn, Bakkies, Jonno, Etzebeth, Hines, Cudmore.... even Courtney Lawes (albeit not quite there yet but still). How many times do you ever hear this about AW Jones??? You just don't.[/quote]
fa, you say WRUburton has no competition within Wales, it is truly obvious that you don't watch our League as you say, many, me included would have Tipuric before him, the same does not apply to AWJ, you mention all of those players, yet to the Ospreys and Wales he is a lot more important for the simple reason he plays at the front when he played with Ian Evans and in the middle with many others and in the front mainly with the Lions, I'll just add if POC had NOT been injured they would have been the Lions second row on the last Lions tour with POC as the CAPTAIN, thereby having none of the aftermath of the BOD fiasco, did you intentionally ignore the Scots example provided.

LD if you're basing this on the weekend's game then you really can't have watched it. The time for AWJ to be captain was last year, and if he was then he might still be captain in the present. Now you call for this after Saturday's match? Ludicrous post, again.

LordDowlais wrote:I will give more opinions on this, just so that people do not think I have made an article and then not even bothered. For me a captain needs to be a talisman, I look at Warburton, then I look at Paul O'Connell, and I will ask you all this, out of those two, who would you fear giving you a rollocking out of the two ? It does not even come close, I would like to see my captain questioning the ref once in a while, I would like to see him pulling people aside and telling them they need to give an extra 1%, I would like to see a captain belting out orders, like Scott Gibbs was doing during the 97 Lions tour, I will never forget him in the huddles at the start of the tests telling players how it is, I just do not see this in Warburton, I want a captain who has 100% respect from the players around him, I just do not think Warburton has those qualities.

What I think Warburton is though, is a class player, and if he did not have the captaincy hovering over him, then I think he could go on to become one hell of a player.

Martyn Williams; best 7 Cardiff ever had. Not the best captain we ever had though. Not by a long chalk.

With all do respect, I dont think anyone on here has experience playing with Warburton at senior level, we do not know what hes like with the players.

IronMike wrote:With all do respect, I dont think anyone on here has experience playing with Warburton at senior level, we do not know what hes like with the players.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

IronMike wrote:With all do respect, I dont think anyone on here has experience playing with Warburton at senior level, we do not know what hes like with the players.

Agreed...!

It also amazes me that fans considered that leadership is done by being able to shout and scream not by being inspirational.

Scott Gibbs was used as an example earlier, Scott was an inspiration because of what he did on the field not what he said before the game.

All the players that I have heard talk about warburton say that he is a captain who leads by example. He gets turn overs, makes match saving tackles and finds the ability to escape the defence and build tries. Even scores a few himself.

[quote="maestegmafia"]

bedfordwelsh wrote:

IronMike wrote:With all do respect, I dont think anyone on here has experience playing with Warburton at senior level, we do not know what hes like with the players.

Agreed...!

It also amazes me that fans considered that leadership is done by being able to shout and scream not by being inspirational.

Scott Gibbs was used as an example earlier, Scott was an inspiration because of what he did on the field not what he said before the game.

All the players that I have heard talk about warburton say that he is a captain who leads by example. He gets turn overs, makes match saving tackles and finds the ability to escape the defence and build tries. Even scores a few himself.[/quote]


I am not questioning his ability as a player and what he can do on the pitch, I am questioning his ability to rally the troops so to speak. You obviously have not seen any of the 1997 Lions tour, Scott Gibbs was giving inspirational team talks before each test, watch it for yourself, I am not making it up, on Saturday with a few minutes to go, Wales had a penalty, a decision should have been made to take that penalty and kick for territory, instead it was played on and we lost the advantage, for me that is lack of nous at captain, I want to see my captain giving somebody a roasting for giving away stupid penalties, I want to see them giving encouragement. Yes Warburton can lead by example, but I just think this whole captaincy issue is holding him back, I think Warburton has the respect of his piers as a player, but as a captain, I cannot see anybody being worried about having a kicking off him.

Also, I would like to thank Saint, for another insightful comment on here, the way he goes on you would think that only his opinion counts on anything.

LordDowlais wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

IronMike wrote:With all do respect, I dont think anyone on here has experience playing with Warburton at senior level, we do not know what hes like with the players.

Agreed...!

It also amazes me that fans considered that leadership is done by being able to shout and scream not by being inspirational.

Scott Gibbs was used as an example earlier, Scott was an inspiration because of what he did on the field not what he said before the game.

All the players that I have heard talk about warburton say that he is a captain who leads by example. He gets turn overs, makes match saving tackles and finds the ability to escape the defence and build tries. Even scores a few himself.[/quote]


I am not questioning his ability as a player and what he can do on the pitch, I am questioning his ability to rally the troops so to speak. You obviously have not seen any of the 1997 Lions tour, Scott Gibbs was giving inspirational team talks before each test, watch it for yourself, I am not making it up, on Saturday with a few minutes to go, Wales had a penalty, a decision should have been made to take that penalty and kick for territory, instead it was played on and we lost the advantage, for me that is lack of nous at captain, I want to see my captain giving somebody a roasting for giving away stupid penalties, I want to see them giving encouragement. Yes Warburton can lead by example, but I just think this whole captaincy issue is holding him back, I think Warburton has the respect of his piers as a player, but as a captain, I cannot see anybody being worried about having a kicking off him.

Also, I would like to thank Saint, for another insightful comment on here, the way he goes on you would think that only his opinion counts on anything.

LD my point was that giving someone "a kicking" is more the leadership that makes good theatre on videos rather than the deeds done on the day.

Your point on whether he is a better player released of the duty is an interesting one, is he a better player at the Blues or at Wales?

With regards to leadership, all teams will ind a different style that suits their own needs, cool calm and collective, or the hair dryer emotional aggressor.

In modern sport, business and, less we forget, warfare, great and inspirational leadership is an art comprised of many facets.

maestegmafia, take two seperate types of captains, our own Sam Warburton and Irelands Paul O'Connell, who would you say is the better captain ? They both lead by example, but one commands respect from his players, the other does not, which one do you think is the better captain ?

Do we know that Warburton doesn't command respect? Or is it as I imagine a friend of a friend was told my his friend that the players don't like him.

It may well come out in subsequent autobigoraphies in years to come but has any current player come out and said he doesn't respect Warburton?

LordDowlais wrote:maestegmafia, take two seperate types of captains, our own Sam Warburton and Irelands Paul O'Connell, who would you say is the better captain ? They both lead by example, but one commands respect from his players, the other does not, which one do you think is the better captain ?

With what evidence do you back up that the irish players do not respect their captain?

its a lot easier for a captain to look good when the team are on the front foot but it is when the team are under the cosh that a true leader comes to the fore who best fits that bill you decide

If you remember a few seasons back Ryan Jones was coming in for similar criticism due to poor performances and that he wasn't a shouter on the pitch but in the recent SCrum V interview with AWJ he said that Jones was one of the best captains he has ever played under.

The captaincy like the No10 debate has become the hot topic/poisoned challice in Welsh rugby at the moment or at least with fans and forums.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Do we know that Warburton doesn't command respect?  Or is it as I imagine a friend of a friend was told my his friend that the players don't like him.

It may well come out in subsequent autobigoraphies in years to come but has any current player come out and said he doesn't respect Warburton?

Of course you're right on the "who knows?" bit.  But I'd just point out that current players are highly unlikely to come out and say they don't respect Warburton (or any other player).  I'm not so sure the revelation in public would go down well with the team, the coaches or WRU.  So it might sell newspapers but a player who went public with such an opinion right now, right at the lead in to the WC.............. Gatland wouldn't be pleased, and that player might as well kiss away their opportunity to be part of the mix come that WC.

Do players disrespect him?  I doubt it in on the field stuff - outside the field, everyone is entitled to like or dislike who they.... like!  But I'm just saying players are most unlikely to talk of 'disrespect' in public.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Do we know that Warburton doesn't command respect?  Or is it as I imagine a friend of a friend was told my his friend that the players don't like him.

It may well come out in subsequent autobigoraphies in years to come but has any current player come out and said he doesn't respect Warburton?

No, quite the opposite. By all accounts I can't remember a single comment that Sam is anything but a great captain.

That's what I mean all this talk/posts on here saying players don't respect him is just that talk, no one actuallys knows. Yes they may have a so called 'source' but they then won't reveal who it is which to me is nothing.

SecretFly wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Do we know that Warburton doesn't command respect?  Or is it as I imagine a friend of a friend was told my his friend that the players don't like him.

It may well come out in subsequent autobigoraphies in years to come but has any current player come out and said he doesn't respect Warburton?

Of course you're right on the "who knows?" bit.  But I'd just point out that current players are highly unlikely to come out and say they don't respect Warburton (or any other player).  I'm not so sure the revelation in public would go down well with the team, the coaches or WRU.  So it might sell newspapers but a player who went public with such an opinion right now, right at the lead in to the WC.............. Gatland wouldn't be pleased, and that player might as well kiss away their opportunity to be part of the mix come that WC.

Do players disrespect him?  I doubt it in on the field stuff - outside the field, everyone is entitled to like or dislike who they.... like!  But I'm just saying players are most unlikely to talk of 'disrespect' in public.

True but their seems little if any decent in the team.

bedfordwelsh wrote:If you remember a few seasons back Ryan Jones was coming in for similar criticism due to poor performances and that he wasn't a shouter on the pitch but in the recent SCrum V interview with AWJ he said that Jones was one of the best captains he has ever played under.

The captaincy like the No10 debate has become the hot topic/poisoned challice in Welsh rugby at the moment or at least with fans and forums.

I think you might be wrong on that one, I remember when his captaincy was under scrutiny, for both Wales and the Ospreys, when he was being questioned I started seeing him run out first for the Ospreys and then shouting to the players as they ran out onto the pitch, patting some of them on their backs as they passed him, also have you forgotten the stand off with New Zealand after the Haka a few years back with Ryan refusing to back down ? I also remember him getting quite vocal with Steve Borthwick in an England and Wales game a few years back as well.

LD,

So are you saying you have never seen Warburton be vocal or congratulate players pat them on back etc, because they are only a few instances mentioned above regarding Jones.

Also, I do not have any evidence of players not respecting Sam Warburton, in fact I think they do, I just do not think he has what it takes to rally the troops when the chips are down or the ability to make the right decisions at the critical time, what I do think however, is that if the burden of captaincy was taken off him, he would be the worlds best no.7.

LordDowlais wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:If you remember a few seasons back Ryan Jones was coming in for similar criticism due to poor performances and that he wasn't a shouter on the pitch but in the recent SCrum V interview with AWJ he said that Jones was one of the best captains he has ever played under.

The captaincy like the No10 debate has become the hot topic/poisoned challice in Welsh rugby at the moment or at least with fans and forums.

I think you might be wrong on that one, I remember when his captaincy was under scrutiny, for both Wales and the Ospreys, when he was being questioned I started seeing him run out first for the Ospreys and then shouting to the players as they ran out onto the pitch, patting some of them on their backs as they passed him, also have you forgotten the stand off with New Zealand after the Haka a few years back with Ryan refusing to back down ? I also remember him getting quite vocal with Steve Borthwick in an England and Wales game a few years back as well.

LD that isn't necesarily the standard set of being a great captain.

bedfordwelsh wrote:LD,

So are you saying you have never seen Warburton be vocal or congratulate players pat them on back etc, because they are only a few instances mentioned above regarding Jones.

No, I have never seen him rally the troops, congratulating players is something altogether different, what I want to see is a killer edge to our captain, somebody who does not take losing for an answer.

This thread in my opinion is becoming rather convoluted, though there is an essence of something very worthy of discussion. I don't think I will see eye to eye with LD, (apologies mate), on his interpretation of recognisable great leadership, but I do concur that Warburtons position as captain should be discussed.

As LD stated earlier, would releasing Warbs of the captaincy enhance his focus on his own game?

I am not sure it would but I am very keen to read others thoughts on the matter.

maestegmafia wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:If you remember a few seasons back Ryan Jones was coming in for similar criticism due to poor performances and that he wasn't a shouter on the pitch but in the recent SCrum V interview with AWJ he said that Jones was one of the best captains he has ever played under.

The captaincy like the No10 debate has become the hot topic/poisoned challice in Welsh rugby at the moment or at least with fans and forums.

I think you might be wrong on that one, I remember when his captaincy was under scrutiny, for both Wales and the Ospreys, when he was being questioned I started seeing him run out first for the Ospreys and then shouting to the players as they ran out onto the pitch, patting some of them on their backs as they passed him, also have you forgotten the stand off with New Zealand after the Haka a few years back with Ryan refusing to back down ? I also remember him getting quite vocal with Steve Borthwick in an England and Wales game a few years back as well.

LD that isn't necesarily the standard set of being a great captain.

It might not be the standard, but it is a big part of it. I look at instances, in any sport where your captain is the one talisman who almost orchestrates what goes on, I think back a few years and remember when Roy Keane for Man Utd had a few word with Viera in the tunnel because Viera was trying to belittle a youngster in the Utd team, I just do not see that side in Sam, but it is only my opinion after all, and perhaps you are on the side of things that Sam does well, and I respect that, it is just not the sort of captain that I would aspire to be.

maestegmafia wrote:This thread in my opinion is becoming rather convoluted, though there is an essence of something very worthy of discussion. I don't think I will see eye to eye with LD, (apologies mate), on his interpretation of recognisable great leadership, but I do concur that Warburtons position as captain should be discussed.

As LD stated earlier, would releasing Warbs of the captaincy enhance his focus on his own game?

I am not sure it would but I am very keen to read others thoughts on the matter.

No need to apologise meas, we are entitled to our opinions, and I respect your opinion on this subject, if we all agreed on everything, we would have nothing to talk about.