Aviva Premiership - Round 8

by **LondonTiger** Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:33 pm

First topic message reminder :

Premiership Table

Fixtures

Friday 21st November 2014

Harlequins (6th) v Sale (7th) 19:45 BT Sport
Two teams who won last week face each other at the Stoop. By all accounts Quins did the basics well last week, and against a Sale team who have struggled on their travels that could be enough.

Newcastle (11th) v Gloucester (8th) 20:00
Falcons are probably safe from relegation already - so must be looking to improve before next season when Bristol or Worcester are likely to be much stronger than London Welsh have been. This is the sort of fixture they simply have to be winning, especially with Gloucester in the midst of a crisis among their back line. International duties and injuries deprive them of all but Charlie Sharples from their first choice attack.

Saturday 22nd November 2014

Exeter (2nd) v Wasps (5th) 15:00
I have no idea how Exeter have made it to 2nd in the table. Whenever I see them play they have looked very short of firepower. However they win the matches I do not watch. Wasps had a fun unopposed session last week - not really the preparation for a trip to Sandy Park.

London Irish (10th) v Bath (3rd) 15:00
London Irish have just lost 3 matches on the bounce, with what have been described as some lamentable performances. The coaches have been critical of the players, the fans of the coaches. Bath are however still vulnerable and could easily struggle in this match.

Sunday 23rd November 2014

Saracens (4th) v Northampton (1st) 13:00 BT Sport
Both sides will be disappointed with last week. Mark McCall seemed to blame the ref for Sarries failure to win - perhaps he should instead look at how they approached the game. They offered zero threat with ball in hand, and seemed to assume their defence would win the game. As predicted Saints were vulnerable last week. Mallinder was critical of how they tried to play too much rugby in poor conditions. Saracens should be much stronger than Saints this week, but if they persist with Wyles at 12 could struggle to create. That would be criminal with two wingers who are on fire.

London Welsh (12th) v Leicester (9th) 15:15 BT Sport
BT Sport are often criticised for only showing glamour matches. They balance that this week with this bottom of the table clash between the two lowest try scorers in the league. London Welsh have been conceding 49 points per match, so maybe Tigers can get their second TBP of the season (previous was against Falcons) but do not hold your breath. Freddie Burns lack of confidence from the kicking tee will mean that Owen Williams wil start - yet he has shown no evidence that he will be able to direct the backs to try scoring form.

by Heaf Sat 22 Nov 2014, 12:09 am

Did anyone else think Care was taken out by the Sale No 12 for their try?

by HammerofThunor Sat 22 Nov 2014, 12:14 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Falcons playing well tonight, the better team and winning

Scrum has been excellent and everything has fitted into place. We've certainly had the rub of the green from the ref though.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 22 Nov 2014, 7:53 am

Hint of it Heaf but Braid had momentum to spare and it looked more clumsy than deliberate.

by yappysnap Sat 22 Nov 2014, 8:35 am

Well done Sale.

We just couldn't get the continuity, without Lowe in the backline the players there looked clueless, the only tactic was a long looping pass to the wings who had multiple Sale players waiting for them.

Irritating game but then hey ho.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 9:40 am

yappysnap wrote:Well done Sale.

We just couldn't get the continuity, without Lowe in the backline the players there looked clueless, the only tactic was a long looping pass to the wings who had multiple Sale players waiting for them.

Irritating game but then hey ho.

Or a lot of cutting back inside from first receiver when there was an overlap. Never seen Quins look so static. It was extremely disjointed.

by doctor_grey Sat 22 Nov 2014, 12:17 pm

Looking at the Premiership table over my morning coffee and I can't help noticing how a team playing as poor as London Welsh distorts things:
Two seasons ago when Sale started poorly with seven straight losses, their points differential was -16.7 with 2 bonus points.
This season London Welsh have seven straight losses and their points differential is -41.3 with 1 bonus point.

Here is the current table with the bonus points omitted (because the calculation are too difficult for early morn).

Pos	Team	P	W	D	L	F	A	F-A
1	Northampton Saints	7	5	0	2	215	106	109
2	Exeter Chiefs	7	5	0	2	225	130	95
3	Bath Rugby	7	5	0	2	217	131	86
4	Saracens	7	5	1	1	209	142	67
5	Wasps	7	4	0	3	220	148	72
6	Sale Sharks	8	4	0	4	199	188	11
7	Harlequins	8	4	0	4	161	166	-5
8	Gloucester Rugby	8	3	0	5	187	201	-14
9	Leicester Tigers	7	3	1	3	138	174	-36
10	Newcastle Falcons	8	3	0	5	149	186	-37
11	London Irish	7	2	0	5	133	192	-59
12	London Welsh	7	0	0	7	54	343	-289

Here is the table with London Welsh matches factored out.

It is a little distorted because some matches this weekend have already been played and also some teams have not played London Welsh yet.

Team	P	W	D	L	F	A	F-A
Northampton Saints	7	5	0	2	215	106	109
Exeter Chiefs	6	4	0	2	173	130	43
Bath Rugby	6	4	0	2	164	105	59
Saracens	7	5	1	1	209	142	67
Wasps	6	3	0	3	149	141	8
Sale Sharks	7	3	0	4	153	180	-27
Harlequins	7	3	0	4	109	166	-57
Gloucester Rugby	7	2	0	5	141	191	-50
Leicester Tigers	7	3	1	3	138	174	-36
Newcastle Falcons	7	2	0	5	126	183	-57
London Irish	7	2	0	5	133	192	-59

To me it gives a different perspective about how teams are doing. Wasps go from a big positive points differential to almost even, Gloucester and Quins looks weaker. Exeter's points differential goes down to only 43 (7.2 per game). Ultimately, this makes Saints and Sarries records look better because they haven't played London Welsh yet. It's likely Leicester will fatten up on London Welsh this weekend.

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 22 Nov 2014, 12:29 pm

Falcons 3rd bottom, I've got a nose bleed.

by Bathite Sat 22 Nov 2014, 1:06 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Matt Garvey back . He should be Englands No.6.

Of course another point of view is - Matt Garvey back, most over-rated club player on these boards.

I used to think that until he joined Bath. He's absolute quality, but I wouldn't have him over Robshaw or Wood for England.

by Geordie Sat 22 Nov 2014, 2:10 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Falcons 3rd bottom, I've got a nose bleed.

Imagine if we had a quality Fly Half.... Erm

How long have we been saying that though.

Add in a top LH and it'd be like Christmas Wink

by Geordie Sat 22 Nov 2014, 2:13 pm

Bathite wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Matt Garvey back . He should be Englands No.6.

Of course another point of view is - Matt Garvey back, most over-rated club player on these boards.

I used to think that until he joined Bath. He's absolute quality, but I wouldn't have him over Robshaw or Wood for England.

I've always thought he was a class player. And I know I bore people by constantly backing him for England (the squad at least). But how do you know if he's never given a shot (which I except under Lancaster he never will).

If he was given a go and proven well below the required level then fine id shut up...but its something Id love to see trialled.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 22 Nov 2014, 2:15 pm

The England back row certainly doesn't work at present. Be interesting to see how Haskell goes today. Garvey or Fearns would be good options if they can show consistent injury free from.

by englishborn Sat 22 Nov 2014, 2:46 pm

As a rare beast (a sharks fan) I was pleasantly surprised by the win. Quins were very predicable which allowed us to gain confidence in our defence and attack, wish we were more dynamic in the backs but we are getting there.

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 3:27 pm

Lots of endeavour from my boys so far today, but not so much by way of quality. 3-6 down and missed two very kickable penalties.

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 22 Nov 2014, 3:33 pm

Bloody hell, Nowell has scored!

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 3:35 pm

Mow 3-9 down and a man in the bin. Discipline costing us again. Not a high quality contest so far.

by Geordie Sat 22 Nov 2014, 3:35 pm

Oh and can I just proudly mention that Newcastle Falcons are official the world record holders for the loudest noise in a rugby stadium - it matters not that one didn't exist before Very Happy

Don't ask me how other bigger stadiums don't have it...but for the moment its Kingston Park...intimidating fortress of the North East warriors Very Happy

Can I just add (and im sure all else who watched it or was there will agree) if I ever hear the announcer shout....COME ON BRING THE NOISE one more time I will happily pull out his innners with a blunt spoon!!!

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 3:53 pm

6-16 at half time. Unless something major changes in the second half I can't see how we will get anything from this game.

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:11 pm

13-23 now. We have to score next to have a chance.

by Heaf Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:13 pm

We just don't have the squad to cope with 6 forwards out for the AIs plus injuries - how many rolling maul and penalty tries have we conceded in this period?

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:15 pm

16-23. Back in it. Scott Steele really going at them and injecting tempo for us.

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:17 pm

Of our missing forwards, Cowan and Cross have both scored tries today and Cowan was man of the match. Massive misses for us, depth is still a huge issue for us.

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:19 pm

Cowan looked good.

It's the one benefit of our squad at the minute, we only really lose Furno, Thompson & Brrokes.

by Heaf Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:24 pm

Cowan is our best player by far at the moment ... hoping he stays fit.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:28 pm

Heaf wrote:Cowan is our best player by far at the moment ... hoping he stays fit.

A typical Kiwi back rower. is to you what Braid is to Sale

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:29 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Heaf wrote:Cowan is our best player by far at the moment ... hoping he stays fit.

A typical Kiwi back rower. is to you what Braid is to Sale

Surely he's Scottish?

by Heaf Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:33 pm

From a selfish point of view I wish he didn't have the Scottish connection as then we wouldn't lose him for these matches

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:38 pm

Bath have just had another try given where having seen half a dozen TMO replays you can't see it clearly being grounded. They have been the better side and deserve the win, but that's two seasons running we've had a dubious try awarded against us when we've played them.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:41 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:Bath have just had another try given where having seen half a dozen TMO replays you can't see it clearly being grounded. They have been the better side and deserve the win, but that's two seasons running we've had a dubious try awarded against us when we've played them.

i guess it depends on the question asked.

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:47 pm

Try for James Short now. 21-33 conversion to come. Our second half performance has been decent from an attacking point of view, but defensively there have just been too many holes.

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:49 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Ozzy3213 wrote:Bath have just had another try given where having seen half a dozen TMO replays you can't see it clearly being grounded. They have been the better side and deserve the win, but that's two seasons running we've had a dubious try awarded against us when we've played them.

i guess it depends on the question asked.

As ever. Not sure what question was asked. Was one where it looked as if he should have got it down, but you never actually see it grounded.

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:54 pm

FT 23-33. Not even a losing bonus point. Sad

by Bathite Sat 22 Nov 2014, 4:56 pm

On holiday Ozzie. Your thoughts on Bath performance?

by Heaf Sat 22 Nov 2014, 5:04 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:Bath have just had another try given where having seen half a dozen TMO replays you can't see it clearly being grounded. They have been the better side and deserve the win, but that's two seasons running we've had a dubious try awarded against us when we've played them.

Last season it wasn't dubious - it was just plain wrong ...

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 5:04 pm

First half you tried to rely on forward power too much and it didn't really work (albeit you went in 10 points up). When the game opened up second half you looked dangerous ball in hand, as did we, but your defence was a lot better than ours. Not a stellar performance from you Bathite, but decent enough, and when you're back at full strength I would imagine you will be competing for the title this year.

by Heaf Sat 22 Nov 2014, 5:07 pm

TBH with the players we were missing I feared worse ... any idea what happened to Scivs?

by Bathite Sat 22 Nov 2014, 5:13 pm

Cheers for the review ozzy. I feared we might slip to defeat away to you guys today, but with Garvey Eastmond and Roko unexpectedly all in the 23, we were much stronger on paper than expected. Can't wait for Louw to be fit, then hopefully we can make top 4 stick.

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 5:17 pm

No idea Heaf, but as soon as he was ruled out any hope I had of us winning left me. An on loan Championship journeyman and an only just fit Sean Cox in the engine room with a first year academy lad on the bench was never quite going to cut it today.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 5:21 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Ozzy3213 wrote:Bath have just had another try given where having seen half a dozen TMO replays you can't see it clearly being grounded. They have been the better side and deserve the win, but that's two seasons running we've had a dubious try awarded against us when we've played them.

i guess it depends on the question asked.

As ever. Not sure what question was asked. Was one where it looked as if he should have got it down, but you never actually see it grounded.

In that case often the ref can see it is grounded, so wants to check there is no evidence it was dropped and we get the "Any reason....." question.. Thus TV does not need to see grounding

by **Ozzy3213** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 5:24 pm

I get that LT. I'm not sure of Andrew Small's position today in relation to seeing it grounded. Certainly last year Luke Pearce was in no position to see Ford grounding it which was part of what annoyed us Irish fans so much.

by Heaf Sat 22 Nov 2014, 5:27 pm

Indeed Ozzy, we really need our internationals/injured players back.

Bathite, yes I was surprised to see some of your guys released from England, was hoping SL would use them to be honest.

by Heaf Sat 22 Nov 2014, 5:31 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:I get that LT. I'm not sure of Andrew Small's position today in relation to seeing it grounded. Certainly last year Luke Pearce was in no position to see Ford grounding it which was part of what annoyed us Irish fans so much.

Not only was Pearce in no position to see it - it was obviously held up from the replays.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 5:45 pm

Heaf wrote:
Ozzy3213 wrote:I get that LT. I'm not sure of Andrew Small's position today in relation to seeing it grounded. Certainly last year Luke Pearce was in no position to see Ford grounding it which was part of what annoyed us Irish fans so much.

Not only was Pearce in no position to see it - it was obviously held up from the replays.

Pearce is in no position to see if the ball was initially grounded, but gets in an excellent position to see if the ball is wrestled to the ground as all the bodies pile in. TV does show it was not initially grounded - but then the bodies get in the way.

Just seems pointless to worry about it as:

a) Only late scores added any respectability to the score

and

b) Bath could possibly have scored from a 5m scrum any way.

by Heaf Sat 22 Nov 2014, 7:10 pm

The Pearce one was a reference to last year - is that the one you're talking about?

by **LondonTiger** Sat 22 Nov 2014, 7:34 pm

Yes. The match at the Rec. Watched the highlights - though had to watch the match at Madj first - as i assumed you meant there.

Great break by ford, initially held up but after that who knows. All i can say is that by the time the wrestling started Pearce was in a decent position.

by HammerofThunor Sun 23 Nov 2014, 1:32 pm

Saracens getting battered by Saints.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun 23 Nov 2014, 2:20 pm

How bad is Figallo???

by formerly known as Sam Sun 23 Nov 2014, 3:10 pm

Figallo has been out for a long time. It's going to take a number of games before he refinds peak form and fitness. He was alright last week so maybe it's just too many games one after the other after so long out.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun 23 Nov 2014, 3:13 pm

Waller destroyed him from the off. He should be starting to pick up a bit of fitness by now, he's been back over a month. I wonder if he'll ever get back to previous levels, he was quality

by formerly known as Sam Sun 23 Nov 2014, 3:19 pm

Yeah but he's started all those games over the last month. He might have been running a bit on empty. Should maybe be rotated to the bench for a couple of games before his next start.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun 23 Nov 2014, 3:24 pm

He hasn't started that many games. He started the LV then had the next week off. I think he's started 2, this might be his 3rd.

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