England v Australia

by Geordie Mon 24 Nov 2014, 9:50 am

England v Australia
29 November 2014
KO 14:30
Twickenham
Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)

*****
Well 3 down - one to go. And this is a biggy. World Cup group rival....a win would be a nice mental strengthener.

So who do we start.

Have the coaches learned some lessons?...Farrell is not in form and not fit.
Also having a playmaker at 10 opens options up.

Can they issue glue to all the players so they can actually catch the ball...specifically in try scoring situations.

by LordDowlais Mon 24 Nov 2014, 10:01 am

I thought England did not play an extra AI. Are their players to be released from their clubs ?

by BamBam Mon 24 Nov 2014, 10:11 am

Yep, full squad will be available

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Nov 2014, 10:12 am

LordDowlais wrote:I thought England did not play an extra AI. Are their players to be released from their clubs ?

England play a 4th AI every other year. The RFU and the Clubs have a deal in place such that the clubs are compensated and the players insured.

Any other Union can get the same if they wish to talk to the players employers.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Nov 2014, 10:14 am

Did anyone see the Sundays Times pundits selection?

Dayglo selected a back row of 6 Haskell, 7 Robshaw, 8 Wood
Stephen Jones talked up Brown's return to form - then selected Goode.
Barnes seledcted George Ford at 10 and 12 (though in the text suggested Farrell should play)

by Geordie Mon 24 Nov 2014, 10:18 am

Most of the team will pick itself.

Even the wing issues might just be finding solutions - speedy ones!

Probably the biggest questions will be the usual - Centres and 10.
Will they stick with Ford after his good run out?

Team id like to see run out v Australia

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 D.Wilson
4 Attwood
5 Lawes
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 Barritt
13 Burrell
14 Watson
15 Brown

I'd like to see :
6 Robshaw
7 Will Fraser
at some point in the game aswell. But then maybe a big game for Fraser to come out from the cold for his first cap.

by jelly Mon 24 Nov 2014, 10:20 am

LondonTiger wrote:Did anyone see the Sundays Times pundits selection?

Dayglo selected a back row of 6 Haskell, 7 Robshaw, 8 Wood
Stephen Jones talked up Brown's return to form - then selected Goode.
Barnes seledcted George Ford at 10 and 12 (though in the text suggested Farrell should play)

Think someone at the Sunday Times was having a bad day - the England player ratings and comments were either not there or nonsense text.

by yappysnap Mon 24 Nov 2014, 10:59 am

My team:

Marler
Webber, Hartley
Wilson
Lawes
Attwood
Haskell, Wood
Robshaw
Morgan
Youngs
Ford
May
Barrett, Farrell
Burrell, Barrett
Watson
Brown

Bold are the players I expect Lancaster to go with.

Got to say I've been a little disappointed with the whole front five this series, all the players involved have to my mind done the bare minimum. They've been very good at the set piece and tackled strongly, but otherwise haven't really offered themselves around the park or looked for turn overs. Not sure what's up with that, but I seem to remember them being a lot busier in the 6N's.

Backrow is pretty settled, doesn't really matter to me if it's Wood or Hask in at 6, hopefully the two flankers will combine to hold off Hooper either way.

Backline looks pretty solid if nothing else, hopefully Farrell is on the bench but who knows? If we can have two centre's at centre then I think we'll be a lot better straight away.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Nov 2014, 11:17 am

Our coaches:

Stuart Lancaster - doughty, hard working, honest, lacking in flair
Graham Rowntree - Venerable, skilled tight forward
Mike Catt - Is he a 10, is he a 12, what is he.
Andy Farrell - Inexperienced in Union, solid defender, tireless worker.

Is it any surprise that the teams we have look an awful lot like the coaches.

by yappysnap Mon 24 Nov 2014, 11:22 am

Luckily the RFU only signed them all up until the 201- Oh, yea, gave them that extension didn't they? Oooohhhh awkward...

by MichaelT Mon 24 Nov 2014, 11:26 am

yappysnap wrote:

Got to say I've been a little disappointed with the whole front five this series, all the players involved have to my mind done the bare minimum. They've been very good at the set piece and tackled strongly, but otherwise haven't really offered themselves around the park or looked for turn overs. Not sure what's up with that, but I seem to remember them being a lot busier in the 6N's.

I agree, and it shows how much Launchbury is missed. I can remember him against Ireland wining turnovers at the breakdown and chasing down wingers with tap tackles. He seems to be a smart player, which is something we are lacking throughout the team at the moment. Cole is good at the breakdown too, and one of our few really experienced players.

Hopefully the break will do/ has done those two good as this series has proved we need smarter players. I would definitely put those two as smarter than the current shirt holders.

by nathan Mon 24 Nov 2014, 11:28 am

I think some on here need to lower their expectations. We are not there yet.

by beshocked Mon 24 Nov 2014, 11:41 am

nathan wrote:I think some on here need to lower their expectations. We are not there yet.

I think Lancaster and co have done a sufficiently good enough job of lowering expectations for us!

by yappysnap Mon 24 Nov 2014, 11:49 am

nathan wrote:I think some on here need to lower their expectations. We are not there yet.

Don't think it's high expectations.

I came into the series expecting 2 wins out of four at the most. Only Sky and the rest of the media kept shooting for more then that.

What's more perplexing is the loss of form across the team. As I said the forwards as a unit looked a lot busier earlier this year but now seemed to have taken a step back. Don't think that's a case of high expectations, just an observation.

by LordDowlais Mon 24 Nov 2014, 11:50 am

LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I thought England did not play an extra AI. Are their players to be released from their clubs ?

England play a 4th AI every other year. The RFU and the Clubs have a deal in place such that the clubs are compensated and the players insured.

Any other Union can get the same if they wish to talk to the players employers.

They have, and Northampton were then fined fore releasing a player, so what are these arrangements ?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Nov 2014, 11:54 am

No - WRU did not speak to northampton. north did that - Saints were fined as unilateral decisions liek this woudl hamper the collective bargaining with RFU.

there is a financial gain to the Unions for arranging matches outside the international window. WRU pay other teams to comew and play them, but are unwilling to pay for players to be released or pay for them to be insured against injury. their choice.

by HammerofThunor Mon 24 Nov 2014, 11:56 am

RFU have a deal the whole PRL agreed on. It was an 8 year deal up until the end of 2015/16 season.

I'm pretty sure this comes up every single year. Google "RFU EPS 2008" and you'll probably hit on it (other search engines are available, but are generally crap).

by LordDowlais Mon 24 Nov 2014, 11:56 am

LondonTiger wrote:No - WRU did not speak to northampton

Who did they speak to then ?

by BamBam Mon 24 Nov 2014, 11:59 am

The deal is for the release of players to the RFU (i.e. the England team) but I'm pretty sure you knew that anyway LD

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Nov 2014, 12:02 pm

Squad for thsi week:

England Squad
Loose-head props
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)

Tight-head props
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Back rows
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain)
Thomas Waldrom (Exeter Chiefs)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Outside backs
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Back threes
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Semesa Rokoguduni (Bath Rugby)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Waldrom and Myler in, BillyV out - suffered concussion against Saints apparently

by LordDowlais Mon 24 Nov 2014, 12:06 pm

BamBam wrote:The deal is for the release of players to the RFU (i.e. the England team) but I'm pretty sure you knew that anyway LD

You are right, I do know this, but what I am trying to ascertain is, is this deal only privy to England ? Can any union make these deals ? I know that Hibbard and Paul James are not allowed to play for Wales next Saturday, I don't know about George North, and if he does play will Northampton be fined again ?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Nov 2014, 12:10 pm

Yes any country can make such a deal - so long as they deal with PRL.

If George North plays, Saints will be fined - the fine will be double last years and counts towards the salary cap.

by yappysnap Mon 24 Nov 2014, 12:14 pm

Does SL always pick 5 wingers in his squads? Seems a little excessive to me, I would have thought he'd want more front row players practising in the side.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Nov 2014, 12:16 pm

yappysnap wrote:Does SL always pick 5 wingers in his squads? Seems a little excessive to me, I would have thought he'd want more front row players practising in the side.

There were not that many originally - but when Roku was injured he was replaced, but has now returned.

by lostinwales Mon 24 Nov 2014, 12:17 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Yes any country can make such a deal - so long as they deal with PRL.

If George North plays, Saints will be fined - the fine will be double last years and counts towards the salary cap.

I didnt know that about the new fine, but the general point has been debated endlessly before. The WRU have in general only been prepared to talk to the RFU, not to the actual clubs who pay the players a salary. The RFU pay the clubs extra money to allow them to have access to England squad players outside of the international window. I am sure the WRU could do the same.

by nathan Mon 24 Nov 2014, 12:18 pm

yappysnap wrote:Does SL always pick 5 wingers in his squads? Seems a little excessive to me, I would have thought he'd want more front row players practising in the side.

Is it because he is unsure them still?

by bedfordwelsh Mon 24 Nov 2014, 12:43 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Yes any country can make such a deal - so long as they deal with PRL.

If George North plays, Saints will be fined - the fine will be double last years and counts towards the salary cap.

If he doesn't play then in theory he can sue Saints for breaking the contract as he has full release clause in it. Damned if do damned if don,t.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 24 Nov 2014, 12:47 pm

Genuine question then but if England and Wales lose this weekend where does this leave the group next year with both England and Wales having only won 1 from 4 and both having lost to Australia.

People say these games won't matter come the WC but for me that's bollards and even more so in Wales' case as there has to be a mental/psychological issue here now and it won't go away until we close out there games.

That said next year would be a good time to start

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Nov 2014, 12:48 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Yes any country can make such a deal - so long as they deal with PRL.

If George North plays, Saints will be fined - the fine will be double last years and counts towards the salary cap.

If he doesn't play then in theory he can sue Saints for breaking the contract as he has full release clause in it. Damned if do damned if don,t.

that he may be injured is a useful get out clause. And this is the last year it will affect him anyway.

by Big Mon 24 Nov 2014, 12:51 pm

nathan wrote:I think some on here need to lower their expectations. We are not there yet.

Given that we've won 3 of the last 4 and generally had the beating of Aus in recent years, presumably that should read 'we are not there anymore'. Although I appreciate that doesn't tie in with the Lancaster line of the team improving and building.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 24 Nov 2014, 1:06 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Yes any country can make such a deal - so long as they deal with PRL.

If George North plays, Saints will be fined - the fine will be double last years and counts towards the salary cap.

If he doesn't play then in theory he can sue Saints for breaking the contract as he has full release clause in it. Damned if do damned if don,t.

that he may be injured is a useful get out clause. And this is the last year it will affect him anyway.

LT,

How come this will be last year its only his 2nd year of a 3 year contract isn't it? Agree on the injury front would certainly help keep the peace.

by Geordie Mon 24 Nov 2014, 1:16 pm

nathan wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Does SL always pick 5 wingers in his squads? Seems a little excessive to me, I would have thought he'd want more front row players practising in the side.

Is it because he is unsure them still?

Quite possibly, but i would keep working with Watson and May. I think they could offer alot to England if they're given a chance.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Nov 2014, 1:24 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Yes any country can make such a deal - so long as they deal with PRL.

If George North plays, Saints will be fined - the fine will be double last years and counts towards the salary cap.

If he doesn't play then in theory he can sue Saints for breaking the contract as he has full release clause in it. Damned if do damned if don,t.

that he may be injured is a useful get out clause. And this is the last year it will affect him anyway.

LT,

How come this will be last year its only his 2nd year of a 3 year contract isn't it? Agree on the injury front would certainly help keep the peace.

No Ais next year

by lostinwales Mon 24 Nov 2014, 1:31 pm

According to the Beeb lawes may be a doubt with a knee injury

by Geordie Mon 24 Nov 2014, 1:33 pm

I guess that would mean Kruis would step up for a start.

Attwood and Kruis - Would you be happy with that.
Or prefer
Attwood and Kitchener

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Nov 2014, 1:45 pm

the RFU statement containing the squad states Lawes is receiving treatment in camp for the knee injury that caused him to leave the pitch on Saturday.

Kruis is th enext cab on the rank so would start with Attwood. Selfishly I hope Lawes is fit to play.

by maestegmafia Mon 24 Nov 2014, 1:46 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I thought England did not play an extra AI. Are their players to be released from their clubs ?

England play a 4th AI every other year. The RFU and the Clubs have a deal in place such that the clubs are compensated and the players insured.

Any other Union can get the same if they wish to talk to the players employers.

They have, and Northampton were then fined fore releasing a player, so what are these arrangements ?

Are the PRL the employers now?

by cb Mon 24 Nov 2014, 1:56 pm

Interesting that none of the outside backs plays outside centre for their club? I think Joseph has been one of the form centres in the premiership, but cannot make a 34 man squad.

Surely we must keep Ford at 10. I would also like to see Burrell back.

Watching the Ireland/Australia match, the Australia backs were not bad (neither were Irish). Similarly with Wales and New Zealand. I am not sure England can expect these days to beat a top ranking side just by having competent forwards and a good kicker. The game seems to have moved on over the last few years. England at some stage need to pick players with flair and pace (and hopefully also able to tackle).

by HammerofThunor Mon 24 Nov 2014, 3:36 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I thought England did not play an extra AI. Are their players to be released from their clubs ?

England play a 4th AI every other year. The RFU and the Clubs have a deal in place such that the clubs are compensated and the players insured.

Any other Union can get the same if they wish to talk to the players employers.

They have, and Northampton were then fined fore releasing a player, so what are these arrangements ?

Are the PRL the employers now?

No, but Northampton have entered into a contract with the other clubs as part of the PRL that they won't release players for games outside of the international window without agreement from the PRL. If they breach that contract they get fined. It really isn't complicated. I don't understand why it comes up every year.

by SecretFly Mon 24 Nov 2014, 4:12 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I thought England did not play an extra AI. Are their players to be released from their clubs ?

England play a 4th AI every other year. The RFU and the Clubs have a deal in place such that the clubs are compensated and the players insured.

Any other Union can get the same if they wish to talk to the players employers.

They have, and Northampton were then fined fore releasing a player, so what are these arrangements ?

Are the PRL the employers now?

No, but Northampton have entered into a contract with the other clubs as part of the PRL that they won't release players for games outside of the international window without agreement from the PRL. If they breach that contract they get fined. It really isn't complicated. I don't understand why it comes up every year.

No it's not complicated but it's a far cry from suggesting that English clubs within the AP framework are truly independent entities, making their truly independent decisions and in full autonomy of their own individual clubs and players with no allegiance to anything bigger than their own loyal fans.

That was the argument pushed by clubs within PRL when they fought against the 'Bloc-votes' of ancient Unions. Unions were evil because they were tendrils of power that private teams with private money and private ambitions couldn't break free from.
PRL operates on the same blueprint as a Union, (Governance by majority rule, not by individual clubs doing their own thing) A block of clubs whereby the success of one, the financial benefit of one, has real ramifications for the sucess of all.

by HammerofThunor Mon 24 Nov 2014, 4:24 pm

The English teams want to be controlled by themselves, which includes the ability to give control to another body. but it's their choice, not forced upon them by a union where they are a small (but important) part. Look at Wales, the 4 professional regions were seriously unhappy with the leadership of the WRU but the majority of the clubs voted in favour (or not against, whatever the vote was for). Personally I'd rather a body set up from all the Pro teams (like the LNR in France) rather than just the top tier.

So no, it's not a far cry from what they were saying earlier.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 24 Nov 2014, 4:27 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Yes any country can make such a deal - so long as they deal with PRL.

If George North plays, Saints will be fined - the fine will be double last years and counts towards the salary cap.

If he doesn't play then in theory he can sue Saints for breaking the contract as he has full release clause in it. Damned if do damned if don,t.

that he may be injured is a useful get out clause. And this is the last year it will affect him anyway.

LT,

How come this will be last year its only his 2nd year of a 3 year contract isn't it? Agree on the injury front would certainly help keep the peace.

No Ais next year

Am guessing though that Gatland will want extra training camps/time with the guys which North will be allowed to attend due to his full release clause. Do all the WC friendlies come under sanctioned IRB window?

by Cyril Mon 24 Nov 2014, 4:27 pm

This is the England/Australia build-up thread.

Shouldn't we move any union/club discussion to one of the (many) threads already discussing this topic so this thread doesn't get more de-railed than it already is?

Ford must start. I'd also like to see Burrell back in. Looked sharp for Saints.

If Burrell does come back in do you play him with Barritt or 12T/Burrell? Would be ok with either.

The rest should stay pretty much the same. I'd like to give Haskell another go.

by LordDowlais Mon 24 Nov 2014, 4:30 pm

Cyril wrote:Shouldn't we move any union/club discussion to one of the (many) threads already discussing this topic so this thread doesn't get more de-railed than it already is?

Oooooh look at her. warning

by HammerofThunor Mon 24 Nov 2014, 4:33 pm

Apologies.

From Lancaster's comments post Samoa I can't help feel that he's going start Farrell. Things like... "It was a tough, physical Samoa side to play against, but George Ford's performance was a step in the right direction for him". Hopefully I'm just paranoid, but I think Farrell will be 12 at least.

This one did crack me up a bit "We've got a very good young team developing who have never been smashed or taken apart by any team we've come up against." Er...Wales?

by Big Mon 24 Nov 2014, 4:34 pm

Cyril wrote:This is the England/Australia build-up thread.

Shouldn't we move any union/club discussion to one of the (many) threads already discussing this topic so this thread doesn't get more de-railed than it already is?

Ford must start. I'd also like to see Burrell back in. Looked sharp for Saints.

If Burrell does come back in do you play him with Barritt or 12T/Burrell? Would be ok with either.

The rest should stay pretty much the same. I'd like to give Haskell another go.

Agree with all that. My preference would definitely be 12T/Burrell - they did a respectable enough job in the 6 Nations. In the absence of any other outstanding candidates that should be enough to see them get more game time.

by Cyril Mon 24 Nov 2014, 4:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Cyril wrote:Shouldn't we move any union/club discussion to one of the (many) threads already discussing this topic so this thread doesn't get more de-railed than it already is?

Oooooh look at her.

LD, it's boring enough when the same old things get raised on this subject in the correct place. Wouldn't it just be easier if you read the previous threads and/or contributed to those?

by SecretFly Mon 24 Nov 2014, 4:35 pm

Cyril wrote:This is the England/Australia build-up thread.

Shouldn't we move any union/club discussion to one of the (many) threads already discussing this topic so this thread doesn't get more de-railed than it already is?

Ford must start. I'd also like to see Burrell back in. Looked sharp for Saints.

If Burrell does come back in do you play him with Barritt or 12T/Burrell? Would be ok with either.

The rest should stay pretty much the same. I'd like to give Haskell another go.

I came in on a chat already ongoing about Union/Club Wink

You're trying to change the topic.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 24 Nov 2014, 4:38 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Apologies.

From Lancaster's comments post Samoa I can't help feel that he's going start Farrell. Things like... "It was a tough, physical Samoa side to play against, but George Ford's performance was a step in the right direction for him". Hopefully I'm just paranoid, but I think Farrell will be 12 at least.

This one did crack me up a bit "We've got a very good young team developing who have never been smashed or taken apart by any team we've come up against." Er...Wales?

Hammer,

The feeling I get as a neutral that barring injury he will start Farrell, it felt as if he played Ford to 'keep the peace' but now it's back to situation normal.

by Cyril Mon 24 Nov 2014, 4:41 pm

I think Ford was always going to start against Samoa even if Farrell (and England) had played a blinder against NZ and SA.

It will be a bit of a statement who plays 10 against Aus. If Farrell remains at 12 I just think it's muddying the water and not helping either player really.

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