Review/Discussion of the state of the England team

First topic message reminder :

Just a quick review/discussion on the status of the England team.  Not necessarily a complete analysis but I sure others will fill in the missing gaps and provide their own views.

England were very disappointing and stalled during the Autumn Internationals. Without a dominance scrum they could very easy have lost to Australia.

FORWARDS:

Generally went well, but England should not complacent as next up is Wales away at the MS, where they were bullied last time.

If Corbisiero and Cole can regain form and fitness, England will be strong at prop.  Brookes quietly improving with some younger guys waiting in the wings.

Hooker seems to be a weak area though, Webber did not look wonderful over the week-end.  Hartley a bit undisciplined.

Quite a good groups of locks, but I would still prefer an Attwood or Slater type.  Occasionally Lawes and Launchbury look a little light-weight.  Also though competition is very tight, I would like to have seen how Kitchener would fare.

Backrow is a point of discussion and debate.  The number eights look good with Vunipola coming back to form and future options in Ewers and others (Hughes?).  I think Robshaw almost always plays well but I would not mind seeing Garvey at blindside, to do the tight stuff and allow the other back five forwards to excel in the loose.


BACKS:

Not totally bleak but how to get them playing?

Fullback seems set with Brown and I wonder if Watson should be seen as his successor.

Scrum-half is fairly well served by Youngs and Care if he can recover his form.  Also Simpson can look a good player?

Fly-half is well stocked with Ford, Farrell, Myler and Cips.  Indeed at the week-end I thought Myler had a great game.

At wing there are lots of options in May, Watson, Rokoduguni, Nowell, Wade, Yarde and Benjamin has come on a bit as well. I would love to see Wade get a go sometime.

Centre has been a problem which is annoying has there seems to be talent available.  Tuilagi, Burrell, Eastmond, Joseph, Barritt, Slade, Twelvestrees, etc. all seem good players

So if everyone was fit and on Form, I would go with: -

Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Launchbury
Garvey
Robshaw
Morgan

Youngs
Ford
Watson
Burrell
Tuilagi
May
Brown

Would definitely have Lawes on the bench in case the line went belly-up. Have not yet found room for Wade but would have Eastmond on the bench.  However in most positions there is a lot of competition, so sometimes the choice could go either way.
Perhaps England’s real weakness is having several good players (with the sum being better than the parts), but with very few world class options.

Not sure about your first pairing there maesteg, probably England's second choice at the moment

I would be surprised if Ford actually keeps Farrell in second place, considering Farrell has been given the hot seat unequivocally for so long.

Re Youngs or Care, there's little between them, they both show great form one week and poor the next with such regularity. I would say Youngs was the pick for the AI's, Care for the six nations, it'll be Youngs turn in the summer and probably revert to Care at the RWC.

Neither are consistently good performers.

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England need to continue as they re doing no need to go off on any tangents. Build partnerships further and be consistent. No real need to roll the dice.

Most of the players england want partnerships from are either injured or out of form.

Farrell and Youngs

Tuilagi and Barritt

Corbs Hartley Cole

Launchbury and Lawes

Wood Robshaw Morgan

There are a lot of missing lads from those, you need to look at other options as these lads have not been able to win a six nations let alone a RWC....

England are being forced to experiment by injuries. Why be scared to look at form players that the fans and pundits praise week in week out, over ones the fans so often criticise...???

I misunderstood your meaning of experiment. You rer ight they will not play injured players. Not really sure Id count playing Ford Burrell Marler Wilson Attwood Vunipola experimenting though. Im sure a couple have won a 6N though and Englands set of results have been up with any 6N side the last few years. Im guessing you re onto a poor wum attempt?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England need to continue as they re doing no need to go off on any tangents. Build partnerships further and be consistent. No real need to roll the dice.

Most of the players england want partnerships from are either injured or out of form.

Farrell and Youngs

Tuilagi and Barritt

Corbs Hartley Cole

Launchbury and Lawes

Wood Robshaw Morgan

There are a lot of missing lads from those, you need to look at other options as these lads have not been able to win a six nations let alone a RWC....

England are being forced to experiment by injuries. Why be scared to look at form players that the fans and pundits praise week in week out, over ones the fans so often criticise...???

I misunderstood your meaning of experiment. You rer ight they will not play injured players. Not really sure Id count playing Ford Burrell Marler Wilson Attwood Vunipola experimenting though. Im sure a couple have won a 6N though and Englands set of results have been up with any 6N side the last few years. Im guessing you re onto a poor wum attempt?

No I'm intrigued by your nonchalance...!

I would wager Farrell is picked ahead of Ford, Tom Wood won't get dropped, Barritt is first choice centre and that england still won't win the six nations.

Youngs Hartley and Wood are the only England players in the current set up to have won a six nations.

I would be surprised, maesteg, I expect Ford to start and Barritt to not

ChequeredJersey wrote:I would be surprised, maesteg, I expect Ford to start and Barritt to not

I agree that Ford is the best option. He has had a good season, progressed to accomplish what so many said he wood.

On form Cipriani looks like an exciting option as number two but I hear he will only make the Saxons this season, along with Joseph and Slade. Players that I think deserve a chance to show what they can do under the pressure of the six nations

maestegmafia wrote:
Youngs Hartley and Wood are the only England players in the current set up to have won a six nations.

Wrong

Youngs
Haskell
Wood
Cole
Hartley
Wilson
Care
Corbisiero

all played in the 2011 6 Nations.

Starting from not really understanding the meaning of pragmatic I think maes has got a bit tied in knots. 6Ns fever im guessing.

Stop presuming what other people think mate you are inevitably inflammatory when you do so.

The positive experience of those guys you listed and players who have contributed to the last three efforts to win the six nations for England will be experience.

It is similar to Wales lack of achieving a result against SH opposition over the last six years.

Painful defeat is hopefully inspiring to players. Maybe the hurt of losing at the final hurdle is enough to give england the grit they need to win.

That is the case for including players who have experienced the pain before.

Though a minor shake up of the team can make that final hurdle.

Wales biggest change was using an inspired and on form Dan Biggar. England need to find that inspiration.

Think you need a new strategy you re too transparent.

surely after the Wasp v Quins game today Joe Simpson has to be in with a chance of the England shirt fot the 6ns?....Doesn' t he?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think you need a new strategy you re too transparent.

Such a shame you use this forum to try and defame people rather than for discussing sport.

Isn t it.

Joe Simpson is 5th choice scrum half and that won't change now as wigglesworth and Dickson will be given a shot before Simpson.

sirtidychris wrote:Joe Simpson is 5th choice scrum half and that won't change now as wigglesworth and Dickson will be given a shot before Simpson.

Wigglesworth is looking very good, strong kicking game too which would help take the pressure off the flyhalf.

Wigglesworth looks average the moment the Sarries pack go off script or can't get total control. Good club player but really bot what we want for England if we want our gameplan to move forwards.

yappysnap wrote:Wigglesworth looks average the moment the Sarries pack go off script or can't get total control. Good club player but really bot what we want for England if we want our gameplan to move forwards.

When you say you want the game plan to move forwards what do you mean???

And how can it be accomplished?

I like Baths game plan we want to avoid the crash bang wallop like Wales employ

Haskell made 28 tackles yesterday. Jack Clifford's stats for Quins were excellent as well. I wouldn't be too surprised to see Clifford in the Saxons or even as the last back row player in the main squad based on his recent form.

Haskell really is playing excellently. Whilst his carrying game hasn't been as prevalent in the loose as I'd like his work in the tight has been exceptional. His tackle count is huge, rucking and mauling very good, plus his carrying around the fringes is much stronger now.

If we want a 6 who offfers a bit more grunt in the tight whilst keeping Wood's workrate then Haskell is our man at the moment.

It would however mean a pretty serious makeover of the line-out as Wood is used massively there by England. I often see comments stating he's a good 3rd option or a strong back jumper but in reality he is often our go to man in high pressure line-outs. Especially when throwing to the front, off a shortened line-out close to our line. We cut the numbers, place Wood at the front with two strong lifters and trust him to get up to the ball before the challenging jumper. It isn't a subtle escape tactic but it has worked very well with Wood jumping there for us.

thomh wrote:I wouldn't be too surprised to see Clifford in the Saxons or even as the last back row player in the main squad based on his recent form.

I would.

Let's keep Clifford at Quins please, we can't afford to lose backrowers for the 6N

No doubt about it, England have to be playing this tournament to win it I'm it's own right, not worried about something else in 8 months. We've trialled enough players because of our injury woes, we have to try to nail on as many of our first 15 as possible. Finding out who our best 10 is much more necessary than giving them all game time to work out who our third choice is.

Saying that, we have to pick our best players. It's that simple. For me the key things in each area are:

Front row: Marler and Wilson have developed into very good international scrummagers, but don't offer enough elsewhere to usurp Corbisiero and Cole when both are fit. Would look to introduce both back into the side as early as practicable, so we can look at the balance of the entire pack in the context of these two being available.

At hooker, Hartley is my first choice and we have to look at his replacement. I'd go with Youngs first up as he offers more around the park, and with strong scrummaging props on the bench (Marler and Wilson/Brookes) he should be helped at scrum time.

Second row: Attwood and lawes get a chance to continue their autumn partnership, and both will be looking to make themselves undropable with players coming back. Parling would possibly take the bench spot, and bringing him on at the same time as Youngs could help the latter at the line out.

Backrow: with Morgan out I really think we need to call up Armitage. I wouldn't be happy calling up Armitage for the World Cup and not this tournament. If a decision has been made to take Steffon to the World Cup, then he should be in the squad now. I think with the make up of our current pack, we can accommodate one player in there with a bit of a free role

For the Wales game, I would start with Wood, Robshaw and Vunipola with Armitage on the bench. Haskell would be there or thereabouts when it comes to flankers, but if those 4 go well then he may have to wait until the warm ups for his next cap.

Halfbacks: Care and Youngs both seem to have their ups and downs, but Care has more consistently produced at a higher level and is on better form now.

At 10, I think Farrell hasn't hit his heights this season and shouldn't have played in the Autumn. He should be left to get his form back with his club. He has more than enough experience to reclaim the 10 shirt in the summer if he can lead Sarries to finals and trophies this season.

I'd start with Ford and put Cipriani on the bench. Ford played well against Australia and led Bath to victory in Toulouse. Cipriani can be a game breaker coming off the bench.

Centres: For me, the centres for this tournament will come from two of Barritt, Burrell and Tuilagi. As Manu will likely miss the first two games, I'd go with Barritt at 12 and Burrell at 13.

I'd also have Burgess training with the squad, although I wouldn't cap him in this tournament. If he is to break into the squad for the World Cup, he'll need some exposure beforehand.

Back three: see no real reason to change the 3 that finished the autumn. However, I'd have Foden in there as an option as his form has been right up there.

So my squad for Wales would be:
Corbisiero, Hartley, Wilson, Attwood, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Vunipola.
Care, Ford, May, Barritt, Burrell, Watson, Brown.
Youngs, Marler, Brookes, Parling, Armitage, Youngs, Cipriani, Foden.

Cole and Manu to come into the 23 for the Ireland game if they prove their fitness.

Robbo, I would say that scrummaging is the only area Corbs edges Marler or comes close to it, and that Wilson is a much better carrier than Cole... I think both offer more in the loose than Cole or Corbisiero

Smart money would be on Haskell to start v Wales right now but he will definitely bench if not

Dropping Marler now would be extremely harsh. His form in the Autumn was as good as anything Corbs has ever shown, and he did a great job on Mike Ross in the RCC pool games. Corbs' Lions form isn't better just because it happened for the Lions.

I am amazed that JJ is not on anyone's list at centre, best centre in England by a south west country mile at the moment.

And if ford is the man at ten, then I would say it makes sense to pick another familiar face.

maestegmafia wrote:I am amazed that JJ is not on anyone's list at centre, best centre in England by a south west country mile at the moment.

And if ford is the man at ten, then I would say it makes sense to pick another familiar face.

I'm with you, Mafia. Ford paired with JJ at outside center, who has been excellent both sides of the ball, with BB anchoring things there between them would be way I would go. Gives them aggression and organization in defense and a real edge in attack.

Yep if Joseph doesn't deserve a chance at 13 with his current performances, and Manu injured, I don't really know what he can do.

Similarly if Burrell hasn't earnt a chance in his club position of 12 with his recent performances and our struggles at inside centre then it's not really clear what he can do!

9.Youngs
10.Ford
11.May
12.Burrell
13.Joseph
14.Watson/Wade - One starts, the other on the bench. Both deserve game time.
15.Brown

21.Care 22.Farrell 23.Wade/Watson

The above would offer a more exciting prospect than any England backline in the Autumn by a distance.

Joseph was once again brilliant for Bath today. With Ford playing flat bringing Burrell onto the ball running lines as he does for Saints, creating space for Joseph, May, Watson/Wade and Brown outside them we may finally start offering a threat in the outer channels.

After watching my team lose to a verygoodsaints side I agree on Burrell.

I would pick JJ, Burrell and Slade over anyone else available.

Lawes out of first few weeks of 6 nations ankle op tomorrow.

http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2015/rugby/story/253349.html

Shame as it will be a while until we get our world class locks playing together again. Should be nice & fresh for the WC though.

Love sacks.

Both from a country and club perspective.

big calls that need to be made...

haskell in wood out. massive performance vs quins. made robshaw look invisible.

ford in, farrell not even on bench

burrell/burgess to share 12 shirt (sorry barritt, love your defense but just doesnt offer enough compared to these two for me)

jj at 13. and manu would need to show an awful lot to win the shirt back.

armitage callup to squad as 6/7/8 cover, if not for 6N then definitely for RWC and warmups given Morgan injury.

and i'd really like to see Auterac called up to the EPS.

if we could persuade Stringer to switch nationality then Bath players could play 9, 10, 12, 13 and 14. and i dont think anyone would really be unhappy with that having watched several of them tear holes in Toulouse away today.

quinsforever wrote:big calls that need to be made...

haskell in wood out. massive performance vs quins. made robshaw look invisible.

ford in, farrell not even on bench

burrell/burgess to share 12 shirt (sorry barritt, love your defense but just doesnt offer enough compared to these two for me)

jj at 13. and manu would need to show an awful lot to win the shirt back.

armitage callup to squad as 6/7/8 cover, if not for 6N then definitely for RWC and warmups given Morgan injury.

and i'd really like to see Auterac called up to the EPS.

Way too early on Burgess, the thought of him facing Roberts just in terms of pure nous is terrifying

The Ford Eastmond Joseph axis is a thing of beauty, and they tackled the Toulouse big boys all day, then ran and passed round them when they had the ball.

Not an English style of play I'm afraid though and fully expect the rwc team to be Farrell, burrell/barrit and tuilagi boshing it up while the wingers get cold.

burgess vs roberts my moneys on burgess. roberts doesnt have a step. he is archetypal gatball. thats exactly what burgess as world league player of the year is used to.

and if we have burgess at 12, and haskell at 6 or 7, then all of a sudden we have 2 extra big ball carrying threats from set piece which will give george ford that many more options for distribution as burgess will need to be double marked by every team. and haskell usually ties in 2 or 3 defenders.

i know most people think its too early. with respect, burgess is world class physically and mentally and especially in defense. throw him into the 6N. by RWC he will be very much ready imo.

sirtidychris wrote:The Ford Eastmond Joseph axis is a thing of beauty, and they tackled the Toulouse big boys all day, then ran and passed round them when they had the ball.

Not an English style of play I'm afraid though and fully expect the rwc team to be Farrell, burrell/barrit and tuilagi boshing it up while the wingers get cold.

if that is our backline then i might well give up my tickets as we are doomed. out of form and creatively limited farrell, and woefully unfit and predictable and injury prone tuilagi? we will be lucky to make the quarters. and if we do it will only be because one or both are injured and Bomber is forced to actually play the form players rather than talk about doing it.

quinsforever wrote:burgess vs roberts my moneys on burgess. roberts doesnt have a step. he is archetypal gatball. thats exactly what burgess as world league player of the year is used to.

and if we have burgess at 12, and haskell at 6 or 7, then all of a sudden we have 2 extra big ball carrying threats from set piece which will give george ford that many more options for distribution as burgess will need to be double marked by every team. and haskell usually ties in 2 or 3 defenders.

i know most people think its too early. with respect, burgess is world class physically and mentally and especially in defense. throw him into the 6N. by RWC he will be very much ready imo.

The time on the ball and the ease of getting isolated (which teams would target Burgess doing) are much much harder in the 6N than the AP. I worry that he'd be a turnover machine at this point, he'd beat defenders not realising that's not always a good thing, and refs are often harsher on those big hit tackles and defences much much tougher. Let him get used to the squad maybe and play for the Saxons but it's a different animal at int level, but physically or mentally where we suspect he'll be fine but tactically and instinctively

Eastmond, Slade, JJ, Burrell gives us plenty of variety and class at centre for now. Burgess to come in if he keeps learning, 36 if he gets some kind of form, Manu if he can stay fit for a few games in a row. Back ups of Allen, Barritt, Daly and the likes of Lowe as options (at 13 please, gods why can't we find a 12 at Quins?) mean we have depth

I'm glad to see a few of you agree, I thought I was missing something when I suggested that other players needed looking at and was being told I was wrong.

With England's enviable and unmatched strength in depth the losses of manu, lawes, launch bury et al should have no real effect on the game vs wales. I would hate it to be devalued by the loss of so many injured players.

quinsforever wrote:burgess vs roberts my moneys on burgess. roberts doesnt have a step. he is archetypal gatball. thats exactly what burgess as world league player of the year is used to.

and if we have burgess at 12, and haskell at 6 or 7, then all of a sudden we have 2 extra big ball carrying threats from set piece which will give george ford that many more options for distribution as burgess will need to be double marked by every team. and haskell usually ties in 2 or 3 defenders.

i know most people think its too early. with respect, burgess is world class physically and mentally and especially in defense. throw him into the 6N. by RWC he will be very much ready imo.

burgess at 12? a tad premature perhaps?

The injuries are getting ridiculous now, it is so frustrating! Who are our starting locks going to be? Attwood and Kruis I suppose. You could pick a good pack out the players who are injured, just returning from injury (with little gametime) and the out of form! Starting pack for the 6N opener something like:

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dave Wilson
04. Dave Attwood
05. George Kruis
06. Tom Wood/ James Haskell (Brand has been playing really well)
07. Chris Robshaw
08. Billy Vunipola

Some lads who haven't quite managed to pull it together in an England shirt over the last few years (Attwood, Haskell and Billy V come to mind) are going to have to put in big performances.

sirtidychris wrote:The Ford Eastmond Joseph axis is a thing of beauty, and they tackled the Toulouse big boys all day, then ran and passed round them when they had the ball.

Not an English style of play I'm afraid though and fully expect the rwc team to be Farrell, burrell/barrit and tuilagi boshing it up while the wingers get cold.

Agree with all of that. But why doesn't Lancaster just try it? He can justify it on form and common sense alone.

maestegmafia wrote:I'm glad to see a few of you agree, I thought I was missing something when I suggested that other players needed looking at and was being told I was wrong.

I said you were a wum.

Cumbrian wrote:...Who are our starting locks going to be?  Attwood and Kruis I suppose...

Parling has generally been ahead of Kruis in Lancaster's pecking order, and he might fancy having a British Lion's experience in Cardiff. Slater was on Talksport on Sunday, sounding knacked off that he couldn't take advantage of these lock injuries himself.

be interested in who people think should be at lock? Attwood for sure, but should Kruis, Parling, Kitchner or anyone else start along side him?

Apparently Parling was good on Friday night but I did not see the game and of course Brad Thorne stated that Kitchner would be an All Black if he was in NZ and apparently he has been in good form. I know nothing of Kruis and don't have BT sport so only glean my club rugby form from ITV4 highlights and match reports.

Did Kruis avoid getting banned for that spear tackle then?

I would think it would be Attwood and Parling, with Kruis on the bench. Or he might surprise us and have Attwood and Kruis with Parling on the bench. Can't see past that. Kitchener probably called into the squad as cover until Lawes is back. Centres will probably be Twelvetrees, Barritt, Burrell and someone else, who won't get game time (either that or Manu will be rushed back while unfit). With all the disruptions due to injuries I can't see Lancaster Wee weeing about with more new caps when there are experienced players to be brought in. And I agree...up to a point.