A British & Irish League

First topic message reminder :

I've posted my thoughts regularly on how I feel the Pro12 has now come to a natural end. I feel it's a nothing league, and I feel the British and Irish will be left behind France if something is not done.

"Why not do something proactive, and not just keep moaning" is the cry from many a  poster.

So, I've put my money where my mouth is, and I've come up with a format that although is very draft, is something which I think needs to happen to save NH domestic rugby. I DO NOT have all the answers, but I'm working on it.

Methodology:

There are 6 groups of 4 teams &  2 conferences of 3 groups.

You play everyone in your group twice (maintaining local rivalries) - 6 games

You play everyone else in your conference once (alternating between home and away through the years) - 8 games

You play everyone from two of the other conference’s groups once (alternating between groups yearly) - 8 games

A total of 22 games, roughly the same as the leagues have at the moment. At the end of this stage, you’d have Welsh, Irish, West, South, Midlands and North league champions, plus North and South conference champions and British/Irish Champions.

The winner of each group then qualifies for the playoffs along with the next 2 best ranked teams from each conference. Play offs then follow as they would in the current season. Final determined at beginning of season, preferably outside Ireland for a change.




Bt Sport would fund it. They'd pay an amount higher than the Aviva Prem currently get to bridge the gap between us and the French. They would pay this money because they would then hold rights to broadcast all domestic league action in the UK and Ireland. The Scots, Welsh and English are already on board with BT Sport and PRL. As the fallout over the ERC showed.

The English would be happy to do this because there would be extra revenue for them to exploit. There would likely be no wage cap. The revenues would likely be split evenly across all conferences to start with. The model could be adapted to go into a two tier divisional format at a later stage if desired.

It's not perfect. But I tried. Any thoughts?

I can't be Frak then. I make a sincere effort to answer questions, put up a method I believe will work, and all I get is called a sad individual

Sod you then.

SecretFly wrote:

And all six lines of your post being a big reason also why I'd run a million miles from Chunky's helpful Hara-kiri B&I League.

I'd much prefer to see Chunky's ideas on a more simple and fundamental British League (his real heart's desire).  Try a League Breakdown sans the Irish.

Why that? You would like to let the Irish alone, when it's the most competitive celtic nations with lots of fans?

The Great Aukster wrote:

shuren34 wrote:Why do you think our clubs would like to create an European League

Not all would but the top money orientated clubs realise they're carrying the rest. The top owners don't want salary caps or player restrictions or anything that gets in the way of their wallet. All three leagues have big clubs that will draw more money from a wider audience than the also rans populating the bottom of their leagues - forget history, rugby tradition and all that, it is purely down to the power of the Euro/Pound.

Your comparison to the Premier League is well made. Yet despite having the most money are English football clubs dominating Europe? It is the height of naivety to think ambitious rugby owners are pumping money into the game out of sheer love for the sport and maintaining rugby tradition - they want a return and they want that to be as big as possible.

A Euro league is the creme de la creme and luxury items always command premium prices. Millionaires love luxury so it's the owners that will negotiate a European league despite the fans wishes.

You forgot something: our most powerful clubs can't leave our league like that. The french system is different than the english one. Here all the clubs vote: the top14 and the prod2. Nothing can be done without the clubs from prod2, and they are the majority.
Our top 14 generate enough money itself, and the fans (with few exception)don't want an European League. For exemple I would stop buy tickets if my club (Montpellier) was leaving our championship for a new league, and I'm not the only one with this opinion. Sorry but I prefer when my club play against a rival club( not so far from us) than a welsh/scottish club I didn't even know was existing.

shuren34 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

And all six lines of your post being a big reason also why I'd run a million miles from Chunky's helpful Hara-kiri B&I League.

I'd much prefer to see Chunky's ideas on a more simple and fundamental British League (his real heart's desire).  Try a League Breakdown sans the Irish.

Why that? You would like to let the Irish alone, when it's the most competitive celtic nations with lots of fans?

Maybe your idea may be too earlier. In a few years if your fears came true, people will be more receptive.

shuren34 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

And all six lines of your post being a big reason also why I'd run a million miles from Chunky's helpful Hara-kiri B&I League.

I'd much prefer to see Chunky's ideas on a more simple and fundamental British League (his real heart's desire).  Try a League Breakdown sans the Irish.

Why that? You would like to let the Irish alone, when it's the most competitive celtic nations with lots of fans?

I'd like to keep us (the Irish) out of any cosy little British League that Chunky constantly cheer-leads for. Yes, I'd say if the Welsh or Scots wanted to join a British league then away with them.  God's speed and good luck to them.  Their prerogative.  
But Ireland should go it alone.  Break the Provinces in two - let the Italians stay with us if they wanted.  But either way - an 8 team league or a 10 team league, looking after our own interests, not serving the interests of the PRL or the RFU.

Fly,

British League unlikely as PRL will be unwilling to fund Welsh and Scots.

LondonTiger wrote:Fly,

British League unlikely as PRL will be unwilling to fund Welsh and Scots.

I'm glad.  Not because the Welsh and Scots seem to have constant issues of funding (Wales has a deeper historic infrastructure in rugby than Ireland and Scotland has a bigger population) but because I think the top Nations in Europe in rugby Union can handle three distinct leagues.
Breaking it down to two becomes much too much another charge for an eventual Super-league of a top five English and French clubs perpetually playing for anything that means anything.  It's too much like consolidation and merger.  And no - I don't like mergers.

Chunky Norwich wrote:I can't be Frak then. I make a sincere effort to answer questions, put up a method I believe will work, and all I get is called a sad individual

Sod you then.

Sorry you took that stance, I never ever watch the AP games, I might watch a RCC game involving English clubs, I have better things in life to do than watch wall to wall Rugby. There are a couple of idiots on our Forum that for years, come spouting out with players that we should be signing from mainly NZ and SA to eradicate perceived weaknesses in our squad, at the moment their going on about 4 NZs who are tight heads and are decent in the scrum and ball carriers, we have NEVER EVER signed any of the players mentioned by this pair or a few others on the forum. They must have a lot of time on their hands to be able to watch all these games, as I said I've better things to do with my time, and also I think they only name them to try to show our forum how intelligent and observant they are, they don't impress me one iota.
There are a number on this said forum that want to join up with the English, this is NOT my position and is definitely NOT the position of the Osprey Board.

First step in a long road?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/11438755/English-rugbys-promotion-and-relegation-controversy-The-key-questions-answered.html

Could well be as the major road block is the relegation in the RFU leagues.

Frankly, I see this as a likely outcome some time in the future.  Not driven for love of each other, rather by financial gain:  Broadening the exposure whilst spreading any liability across a larger group.  In other words, take a sport played somewhat separately in smallish countries and amalgamate them into a larger business entity.  More consistency in approach, branding, marketing, and so on.  And as a league of different entities, the teams retain their individuality, though the older league identities melt into the new larger unit.

The challenges are, of course, steep.  The primary one is that Rugby in the different B&I countries are different types of businesses.  The biggest problem will be to somehow develop an algorithm to balance or equalise the net finances of each team to put them on the same level financially.  If - and this is a big if - that can be reconciled, the rest are simply dominoes waiting to fall.  Who knows when this will happen? But I could see it sometime in the next 10 years.  

Not sure I want to see this happen, but I do think it will happen.

By the way, if this were to go forwards, we would need to include the club in Jersey. Only club with automatic qualification. Would make it easier for us to stash our ill-gotten money whilst enjoying some Rugby in better weather.

I don't get why anyone thinks this is a runner. Why would the PRL be interested in the financial basket cases that are Welsh and Scottish Rugby?

Chunky Norwich wrote:First step in a long road?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/11438755/English-rugbys-promotion-and-relegation-controversy-The-key-questions-answered.html

I thought it was the end of the line. Although 10 teams to their 14 makes 24 which is a nice number. But I don't see English clubs getting interested in this, to be honest. I just don't.

My idea was for the Pro 12 to expand and copy half of the NFL. I would add another two Scottish and Italian teams and let each country have its own division such as:-


Each team would play its division rivals home and away (6 games) plus the other teams once per season (12 games). That would be 18 regular season games per year.

The top team from each division will go through to the playoffs plus the two teams with the next best records. So there would be six teams making the end of year playoffs.

The six teams would be seeded 1-6 based on their records with seeds 1 and 2 getting byes to the semi finals. The Grand Final would be rotated between the four nations.

I think the key issue before trying out ideas for a new comp is working out why either league would want to change?

Money is the easy answer, if the context is attempting to outstrip or compete with France.  

Who wants to compete with France?  It's a limited league in terms of team numbers who can only buy in so much talent - but it has a limit.    

If a new league were to be considered, then it should be at the expense of the Champions Cup.   It would appear the French won't mind if the Cup disappears - they have enough money elsewhere.

However, if the English league wants to stay focussed on competing with the T14, then I don't see how bringing in 10-12 teams from another league is going to help them in that objective.

Forget the format for the moment.

Bottom line - why would the PRL want to change?

And for that matter, why would all of the participants in the Pro 12 want to change?

sportform wrote:My idea was for the Pro 12 to expand and copy half of the NFL. I would add another two Scottish and Italian teams and let each country have its own division such as:-


Each team would play its division rivals home and away (6 games) plus the other teams once per season (12 games). That would be 18 regular season games per year.

The top team from each division will go through to the playoffs plus the two teams with the next best records. So there would be six teams making the end of year playoffs.

The six teams would be seeded 1-6 based on their records with seeds 1 and 2 getting byes to the semi finals. The Grand Final would be rotated between the four nations.

Scotland had 3 teams in the past and couldn't sustain them and Italy have struggled to sustain 2 teams never mind 4.

sportform wrote:My idea was for the Pro 12 to expand and copy half of the NFL. I would add another two Scottish and Italian teams and let each country have its own division such as:-


Each team would play its division rivals home and away (6 games) plus the other teams once per season (12 games). That would be 18 regular season games per year.

The top team from each division will go through to the playoffs plus the two teams with the next best records. So there would be six teams making the end of year playoffs.

The six teams would be seeded 1-6 based on their records with seeds 1 and 2 getting byes to the semi finals. The Grand Final would be rotated between the four nations.

I think that's a pretty terrible idea. Expanding the pro12 to include more Italian and Scottish teams would just dilute the quality not improve it. And it would still be a sham run in Ireland.