Britain vs USA- Part 2 All time greats

Basically the same concept but this time i'm doing at a all time scale. Once again post your predictions underneath (Base your predictions on 12 round fights) and have your say if Britain are leading the way in the all time ranks or vice-versa.

Flyweight- Jimmy Wilde vs Fidel LaBarba- Wilde late KO 1-0

Bantamweight- Dick Corbett vs Kid Williams- Williams close UD 1-1

Featherweight- Jim Driscoll vs Willie Pep- Pep wide UD 1-2

Super Featherweight- Jim McDonnell vs Floyd Mayweather- Mayweather schools him 1-3

Lightweight- Ken Buchanan vs Tony Canzoneri- Canzoneri UD 1-4

Light-Welterweight- Ricky Hatton vs Aaron Pryor- Pryor late KO 1-5

Welterweight- Ted Lewis vs Henry Armstrong - Lewis close UD 2-5

Light-Middleweight- Maurice Hope vs Thomas Hearns- Hearns mid KO 2-6

Middleweight- Randy Turpin vs Sugar Ray Robinson- No brainer really Robinson by either wide UD or late KO 2-7

Super-Middleweight- Joe Calzaghe vs RJJ- RJJ UD 2-8

Light-Heavyweight- John Conteh vs Archie Moore- Moore late KO 2-9

Cruiserweight- David Haye vs Evander Holyfield- Holyfield UD 2-10

Heavyweight Lennox Lewis vs Muhammad Ali- Ali mid KO 2-11

Clearly the Americans when it comes weight by weight have the better fighters than us. But the thing i've picked up on is that now it's alot closer backing up my theory that American fighters are on the downfall.

Do you agree with my predictions?, Are the Americans on a major downfall? And Can you see the Brits overtaking the Americans in a few years time?

Are British boxers maybe just getting better?

Also, it's probably hard from something like this to say that anyone is on the downfall or improving as these boxers are drawn over a long period of time. They simply show that, in your opinion, America's best to date trump Britain's best. I'm not sure we can read much into it about the state of American boxing in this day and age.

Turpin/Robinson a no brainer? Considering the era that most of the fighters fought in that i'll be picking will judge it over 15 rounds

Flyweight: Wilde KO's La Barba
Bantamweight: Ortiz pts Caldwell
Featherweight: Pep pts Driscoll
Super Featherweight: Saddler KO Mcdonnell
Lightweight: Leonard pts Buchanan
Light Welterweight: Berg pts Pryor
Welterweight: Robinson pts Lewis
Light Middleweight: Hearns KO Hope
Middleweight: Greb KO Turpin
Super Middleweight: Calzaghe pts Ward
Light Heavyweight: Charles pts Conteh
Cruiserweight: Holyfield KO Haye
Heavyweight: Ali pts Lewis

America 10-3 UK

The inclusions of Mclarnin and Fitzsimmons would even things out significantly

Wilde vs LaBarba- Wilde KO mid
Corbett vs Williams- Williams close UD
Driscoll vs Pep- Pep wide UD
McDonnell vs Mayweather- Mayweather wide UD
Buchanan vs Canzoneri- Canzoneri close UD
Hatton vs Pryor- Pryor KO mid
Lewis vs Armstrong - Lewis close UD
Hope vs Hearns- Hearns KO late
Turpin vs Robinson- Robinson UD (Robinson was much better at WW)
Calzaghe vs Ward- Calzaghe close UD
Conteh vs Moore- Moore KO mid
Haye vs Holyfield- Holyfield KO mid
Lewis vs Ali- Ali KO late

No Roy Jones Jr in the supermiddle division? He wasn't there long but he was damn near untouchable at the weight. I'd pick him to beat Calzaghe by a wide decision.

Liam you should have put Sugar Ray Robinson at Welterweight, Bernard Hopkins at middleweight and Roy Jones Junior at super middleweight.

I've made a slight change i've now got RJJ at Super-Mid. I believe his prime was at light-heavy but was still excellent at Super-Mid.

If you change the WW fight to Lewis vs Robinson, the MW fight to Turpin vs Hopkins and the SMW fight to Calzaghe vs Jones Jnr it gives the U.S an even greater margin.

Flyweight : Jimmy Wilde kayo Jimmy Barry
Bantam : Terry McGovern kayo Pedlar Palmer
Feather : Willie Pep pts Jim Driscoll
Superfeather : Sandy Saddler kayo McDonnell
Light : Benny Leonard pts. Buchanan
Lightwelter : Aaron Pryor pts. Berg
Welter : Robinson pts. Lewis
Lightmiddle : Hearns kayo Hope
Middle : Greb pts Turpin
Supermiddle : Calzaghe v Jones - take your pick. Draw.
Lightheavy : Charles pts. Conteh
Heavy : Ali pts. Lewis

USA 10.5 v GB 1.5

HumanWindmill wrote:Flyweight : Jimmy Wilde kayo Jimmy Barry
Bantam : Terry McGovern kayo Pedlar Palmer
Feather : Willie Pep pts Jim Driscoll
Superfeather : Sandy Saddler kayo McDonnell
Light : Benny Leonard pts. Buchanan
Lightwelter : Aaron Pryor pts. Berg
Welter : Robinson pts. Lewis
Lightmiddle : Hearns kayo Hope
Middle : Greb pts Turpin
Supermiddle : Calzaghe v Jones - take your pick. Draw.
Lightheavy : Charles pts. Conteh
Heavy : Ali pts. Lewis

USA 10.5 v GB 1.5

That just shows the dominance the Americans have over us.

In a few years time I think everything could be different though.

Liam_Main wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Flyweight : Jimmy Wilde kayo Jimmy Barry
Bantam : Terry McGovern kayo Pedlar Palmer
Feather : Willie Pep pts Jim Driscoll
Superfeather : Sandy Saddler kayo McDonnell
Light : Benny Leonard pts. Buchanan
Lightwelter : Aaron Pryor pts. Berg
Welter : Robinson pts. Lewis
Lightmiddle : Hearns kayo Hope
Middle : Greb pts Turpin
Supermiddle : Calzaghe v Jones - take your pick. Draw.
Lightheavy : Charles pts. Conteh
Heavy : Ali pts. Lewis

USA 10.5 v GB 1.5

That just shows the dominance the Americans have over us.

In a few years time I think everything could be different though.

On what though? Who coming through on our side do you think could beat the likes of Hearns, Ali, Robinson et al?

licence_007 wrote:

Liam_Main wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Flyweight : Jimmy Wilde kayo Jimmy Barry
Bantam : Terry McGovern kayo Pedlar Palmer
Feather : Willie Pep pts Jim Driscoll
Superfeather : Sandy Saddler kayo McDonnell
Light : Benny Leonard pts. Buchanan
Lightwelter : Aaron Pryor pts. Berg
Welter : Robinson pts. Lewis
Lightmiddle : Hearns kayo Hope
Middle : Greb pts Turpin
Supermiddle : Calzaghe v Jones - take your pick. Draw.
Lightheavy : Charles pts. Conteh
Heavy : Ali pts. Lewis

USA 10.5 v GB 1.5

That just shows the dominance the Americans have over us.

In a few years time I think everything could be different though.

On what though? Who coming through on our side do you think could beat the likes of Hearns, Ali, Robinson et al?

Welterweight: Gavin
LWW: Amir Khan
SM- Groves,Degale.
Middleweight: Billy Jo-Saunders

I'm not saying these could beat the greats but certainly have the skills to challenge dominance at there weight-divisions.

The likes of Gavin,Khan I can see beating the modern American fighters of today.

Yes, they can beat the modern fighters of today no doubt, but against the greats, I think it's a bit early to say we're going to overtake.

licence_007 wrote:Yes, they can beat the modern fighters of today no doubt, but against the greats, I think it's a bit early to say we're going to overtake.

Not overtake but at least not have such a advantage over us.

Think your over playing the talent of some of the british guys there, Saunders from what i've seen hasn't got enough about him to cut it at the elite level while Groves and Degale are still very much works in progress.

Not sure why the Americans having a dominance over us is all that important, they have a clear dominance over every other nation too

I don't want to seem like I'm being argumentative for the sake of it, but I still can't see us even closing the advantage that greatly. Our best chance to have greater claims would probably be if we have some guys at the lowest weights that are undeniably better. The likes of Jones Jr, Hearns, Ali, Robinson, Leonard...they won't be surpassed by any British hopeful in my eyes for quite a long time. They were special.

Liam you should do a vote for Britains best and Americas best at each of the old school 8 weights and tally up the votes and make match ups that way. All it will show is that America have produced more greats than us.

I don't think Ali would KO Lennox like, Lennox was miles better and faster than Foreman who he KO'd and just as good as Frazier, etc imo, a very, very, very underrated and underappreciated fighter Lennox.

He was stopped a couple of times though. If Rahman could stop him then Ali could.

Even Ali had off nights though. Can't pick a Lewis off night and say it proves he would be KO'd. It would be interesting, I do think it would be a late Ali KO, especially if over 15 rounds.

But look at it the other way and far bigger punchers than Ali didn't come close to stopping him, he didn't have a bad chin and unlike Foreman would burn himself out leaving himself open for a KO at any time

Good article though liam

my personal ones, not the best just good fights!

FEATHERWEIGHT
Naz v Pep - Pep W UD (15)

LIGHTWEIGHT
Watt v Boom Boom Mancini - Mancini KO 12 (15)

LIGHT WELTERWEIGHT
Pryor v Hatton - Hatton W PTS (12)

WELTERWEIGHT
Honeyghan v Mayweather Jr - Mayweather Jr UD

MIDDLEWEIGHT
Macklin v Hagler - Hagler KO 2 (15)

SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT - Calzaghe W PTS (15)
Calzaghe v Leonard
Not saying Calzaghe's as good as SRL, just 12 stone wasn't Ray's best weight imo.

LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT
John Conteh vs Bernard Hopkins - Conteh W PTS (15)
John outworks him for me despite having a gruelling fight.

HEAVYWEIGHT
Lewis v Foreman - Lewis UD (15)

He was stopped a couple of times though. If Rahman could stop him then Ali could.
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That's like saying If Prescott KOd Khan though kev, i know where your coming from, but look at that one-two that snapped his jaw in the rematch. What a big mouth he was as well!

I think Ali would KO Lewis late not because Lewis had been KOd in his career more down to the fact I think Ali would just be to good for him especially over 15 rounds.

I think Ali would KO Lewis late not because Lewis had been KOd in his career more down to the fact I think Ali would just be to good for him especially over 15 rounds.
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Fair enough mate, i've always fancied Lennox, better than ANYONE he ever faced in my view, despite Joe Frazier being a legend, my dad gives me a clip when i say it though due to loving Ali.

Might be too good for him but that doesn't guarantee a knockout

Hatton beating Pryor, my god think i'm in a parallel universe

Steven_89 wrote:Fair enough mate, i've always fancied Lennox, better than ANYONE he ever faced in my view, despite Joe Frazier being a legend, my dad gives me a clip when i say it though due to loving Ali.

Made me laugh, Steven.

My old dad used to do the same when I was a youngster. Joe Louis was his man, and he thought I was daft to believe that Ali was better. Time flies.

I agree with most of the outcomes of the hypothetical fights you've gone for, Steven (and props to you for coming up with some interesting ones), but there is one notable exception, for me; Hatton versus Pryor.

Hatton to decision him? As much as I love Hatton, 'The Hawk' absolutely vaporizes him at 140 lb as far as I'm concerned. Hatton relied on consistent pressure, roughing up on the inside and a stinging body attack - Pryor comfortably trumps him in all of those departments, particularly work rate. I'd even go so far to say that Pryor is the only fighter anywhere between 126 lb and 147 lb since Henry Armstrong who could match 'Homicide Hank' when it comes to pressure and work rate.

On top of all that, Pryor was a cut above Hatton on a technical level, too. I think this is a seriously painful night for Hatton; bullied from the off, over-whelmed by the sheer speed of Pryor's attacks and soon realising that there isn't a single department in which he's Pryor's equal. I think Pryor does away with Hatton inside four rounds.

Hatton to decision him? As much as I love Hatton, 'The Hawk' absolutely vaporizes him at 140 lb as far as I'm concerned. Hatton relied on consistent pressure, roughing up on the inside and a stinging body attack - Pryor comfortably trumps him in all of those departments, particularly work rate. I'd even go so far to say that Pryor is the only fighter anywhere between 126 lb and 147 lb since Henry Armstrong who could match 'Homicide Hank' when it comes to pressure and work rate.
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I dont think Pryor is in the same league as Ricky as a boxer, Pryor for a top level fighter had awful technical ability, Hatton could even stop him imo.

My old dad used to do the same when I was a youngster. Joe Louis was his man, and he thought I was daft to believe that Ali was better. Time flies.
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haha

So Arguello gets beaten but Hatton beats, not even stylistically does that one make sense, there's very few i'd give a chance of beating Pryor at 140lbs even then they'd be absolute wars against Chavez and Duran with the winner being anyones guess. He didn't need technical ability to beat people, he just wore them down with an indominatable will to win.

So Arguello gets beaten but Hatton beats, not even stylistically does that one make sense, there's very few i'd give a chance of beating Pryor at 140lbs even then they'd be absolute wars against Chavez and Duran with the winner being anyones guess. He didn't need technical ability to beat people, he just wore them down with an indominatable will to win.
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Prescott knocks Khan out when he aint even in the same league, not even stylistically does that make sense.

Hatton would use his boxing brain, which he genuinely had just didn't use often, surprises him and wins, thats my opinion on the fight.

Pryor v Hatton would make the Pacquiao/Hatton fight look competitive.

Can't see it myself when a far better boxer in Arguello couldn't do it and not once did Hatton highlight a boxing brain at the highest level

Pryor v Hatton would make the Pacquiao/Hatton fight look competitive.
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Pacquiao ices Pryor as well imo. I guarantee 100% imperial disagrees, even if he thinks the same! hahahaha

So me thinking Pryor beats Pacquiao is as funny as saying Hatton beats Pryor?

Steven_89 wrote:I think Ali would KO Lewis late not because Lewis had been KOd in his career more down to the fact I think Ali would just be to good for him especially over 15 rounds.
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Fair enough mate, i've always fancied Lennox, better than ANYONE he ever faced in my view, despite Joe Frazier being a legend, my dad gives me a clip when i say it though due to loving Ali.

Good to know your old man is keeping you in check.

So me thinking Pryor beats Pacquiao is as funny as saying Hatton beats Pryor?
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Hatton
Ended the reign of a great in Tszyu
3 time, 2 weight world champ
hardly funny though is it, only lost to the best, your deluded if you think Hatton isnt up there. He is also regarded as one of the best light welterweights of all time

Steven_89 wrote:So me thinking Pryor beats Pacquiao is as funny as saying Hatton beats Pryor?
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Hatton
Ended the reign of a great in Tszyu
3 time, 2 weight world champ
hardly funny though is it, only lost to the best, your deluded if you think Hatton isnt up there. He is also regarded as one of the best light welterweights of all time

I don't think anyone is trying to degrade Hatton's win over Tszyu, but that is the only fight in his whole career which hinted at true greatness. Tszyu aside, what does Hatton have on his ledger at 140 lb? Ben Tackie? Carlos Maussa? Juan Urango? Paulie Malignaggi? All decent fighters, but let's be honest; Pryor would have absolutely blitzed the lot of them, and probably in much more impressive style, too. There's absolutely no chance on earth that a Tackie or Malignaggi would have made it to the full distance / the latter stages respectively against Pryor, as they did against Hatton.

I simply can't see how Hatton beats Pryor, no matter how I look at it. As I said before, Pryor is better in Hatton's best departments than Hatton himself is. Not even Hatton would be able to keep up with Pryor, and it's an unavoidable fact that, once Hatton was tagged and dragged in to a brawl, he just didn't have the nous to switch tact and use his brain instead of his balls. There's just no way that Hatton hits anywhere near as hard as Pryor and, as soon as the two of them are engaging, there's only one winner. Pryor would take Hatton's head off, for my money.

Hatton's CV at Light-Welterweight is impressive enough, but I see nothing on it at all to even make me think he goes past the mid rounds against Pryor, let alone beat him. I think Hatton is, at best, just outside the top ten of all-time when it comes to the Light-Welterweights. Pryor, on the other hand, is a nailed-on top four at 140 lb, along with Ross, Canzoneri and Chavez.

Steven_89 wrote:So me thinking Pryor beats Pacquiao is as funny as saying Hatton beats Pryor?
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Hatton
Ended the reign of a great in Tszyu
3 time, 2 weight world champ
hardly funny though is it, only lost to the best, your deluded if you think Hatton isnt up there. He is also regarded as one of the best light welterweights of all time

I like hatton but for my money a prime kosta beats him. Let's face it kosta was past his best and a part time fighter when hatton took him. A good win for Ricky yes, but more than that a great bit of matchmaking by warren.

There's no way on earth Ricky beats Pryor at 140lb - as others have alluded to Pryor does everything Ricky does but better. He's relentless hit carries more power than Ricky, beats a prime Ricky inside 8 for me.

Off the cuff I'd back any of the following guys that have competed ar 140 to beat Ricky


Canzoneiri 
Berg
Ortiz
Pryor
Arguello
Benitez
Locche
Taylor
Whittaker
Cotto
Mayweather Jr
Pacquiao
Arguello
Tszyu
Chavez
De La Hoya

Steven_89 wrote:So me thinking Pryor beats Pacquiao is as funny as saying Hatton beats Pryor?
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Hatton
Ended the reign of a great in Tszyu
3 time, 2 weight world champ
hardly funny though is it, only lost to the best, your deluded if you think Hatton isnt up there. He is also regarded as one of the best light welterweights of all time

Sorry I don't confine things to the past ten years where Hatton was up there but even then he's only the 5/6th best fighter to fight in his division, has decent longevity at the weight but nothing to suggest he's anywhere near the class of Pryor who was a relentless beast at his best, in beating Arguello twice he there and then trumps Hattons overall record. That does take into account ending the reign of a greater 140lber than Tzuyu in Antonio Cervantes, laugh all you want Southpaw but Hatton was a decent world level fighter but he's not one of the greats. Arguello is for my money a greater fighter than either Pacquiao or Mayweather, so Pryor was beating the best rather than losing to the best.

Arguello is for my money a greater fighter than either Pacquiao or Mayweather, so Pryor was beating the best rather than losing to the best.
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Stop right there, now i have a lot of respect for Arguello, RIP who was a brilliant fighter, but Pacquiao and Mayweather are better than him or Pryor, Pryor's reckless style plays right into the sublimely fast hands of Pacquiao and Mayweather outboxes him imo. Arguello isnt in the same league as Pacquiao or Mayweather imo, i don't like Mayweather as a person but him and Pacquiao are the best 2 fighters i've ever seen.

Steven

Mayweather would have the beating of both Pryor and Arguello imo. He is that good. But to suggest Pac is in the same league of Pryor and Arguello is stretching credibility a little too much.

Pac has limited defensive skills. Very limited. Pryor may appear reckless to you, but to other boxers he was anything buy. Mayweather's superb counter-punching and accuracy would win out imo. As for Pac, he would need a good defense. Something he does not have and never has has. Against Pryor and Alexis that would be his downfall. And fall he will, before the 7th round.

Those guys were just too good, clever, skilled, hard hitting for Pac.Not even worth discussing to be honest as it would be an easynight for them.

Might be the best you've seen Southpaw but Pacquiao isn't one of the best i've seen, his style would play right into Arguellos hands who would counter punch him and then counter punch him some more. Mayweather would probably get the better of him head to head but for me Arguello has a better record than he does.

I realise that people like you don't like boxers being rated higher than Pacquiao but boxing didn't start 10 years ago, he's in the top 30 overall based on his achievements and record but in head to head match ups he falls short.

Mayweather may have the beating of Arguello, but Pacquiao? I think 'The Explosive Thin Man' is far too good for Pacquiao anywhere between 126 lb and 140 lb, and given the substandard opposition Pacquiao has been feasting off (Cotto aside) at Welterweight and Light-Middleweight, I'm not even sure I'd give him the edge at those higher weights, either. I think given their respective styles, Arguello is far too reachy, has too compact a defence and counter-punching ability (Pacquiao's achilles heel) and, if Pacquiao tries to engage him, hits way, way to hard for the Filipino - and this is coming from someone who rates Pacquiao highly.

I'd agree that Arguello's career as a whole trumps both Mayweather and Pacquiao, mind you.

So, we're all agreed that Pryor systematically dismantles Hatton before stopping him inside four rounds, then?

88Chris05 wrote:Mayweather may have the beating of Arguello, but Pacquiao? I think 'The Explosive Thin Man' is far too good for Pacquiao anywhere between 126 lb and 140 lb, and given the substandard opposition Pacquiao has been feasting off (Cotto aside) at Welterweight and Light-Middleweight, I'm not even sure I'd give him the edge at those higher weights, either. I think given their respective styles, Arguello is far too reachy, has too compact a defence and counter-punching ability (Pacquiao's achilles heel) and, if Pacquiao tries to engage him, hits way, way to hard for the Filipino - and this is coming from someone who rates Pacquiao highly.

I'd agree that Arguello's career as a whole trumps both Mayweather and Pacquiao, mind you.

So, we're all agreed that Pryor systematically dismantles Hatton before stopping him inside four rounds, then?

Disagree. Pryor destroys Hatton inside 2 rounds.

Ali mid KO Against lewis ???????

Ali beats Lewis 115-113 close decision no chance of Stopping Lewis

KO-KING wrote: Ali mid KO Against lewis ???????

Ali beats Lewis 115-113 close decision no chance of Stopping Lewis

I wouldn't have it so close. Ali would lose a few rounds only because he takes a breather. I'd have it 117-112 Ali. No clance Lewis winning this fight in a million years.

88Chris05 wrote:

So, we're all agreed that Pryor systematically dismantles Hatton before stopping him inside four rounds, then?

With all respect to Steven_89. I can't see anything other than a very short and very painful night for Hatton, up against Pryor.

It would only require the tiniest nudge for me to pick Pryor as the best lightwelter of the lot.