Aviva Premiership - Round 18

First topic message reminder :

Positions:

62pts Northampton
53pts Exeter
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52pts Saracens
51pts Bath
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51pts Leicester
48pts Wasps
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43pts Sale
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39pts Harlequins
37pts Gloucester
29pts London Irish
25pts Newcastle
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1pt    London Welsh




Fri 27 th

BT Sport
Northampton Saints v Wasps, Franklin's Gardens, Northampton 19:45 GMT
Just one round of the AP before the European semis, and both clubs will have one eye on their tough away trips next weekend. Northampton have not been in the best of form but have managed to grind out results with 3 wins and a draw during the 6 nations. Wasps last recorded an away win in the AP in December so despite having the talent may not have the belief to challenge the champions. Mallinder has an interesting selection decision to make at 12. Tom Stephenson is a young man with huge potential, who has been on fire while Burrell has been away.
Both teams have players returning, but Saints returnees are of a higher quality. I expect the champions to play this Midlands derby  tight and wrestle their new neighbours out of it.


Sat 28th

Leicester Tigers v Exeter Chiefs, Welford Road, Leicester  15:00 GMT
2nd visit 5th in a must win game for both sides. A repeat of the result from Sandy Park at the start of the season will see Leicester move into the Top 4 and Exeter probably drop out. While disappointed to lose their LV title, Chiefs will have been heartened by the spirit shown in coming back and the win at Welford Rd in the semis. Much may depend on the performances of the Devon bound Parling and (if selected) Salvi.

London Irish v Newcastle Falcons, Madejski Stadium, Reading 15:00 GMT
Both sides have Challenge cup matches next week, and with Premiership safety guaranteed and 7th spot out of reach may have one eye on that. Irish won the reverse fixture and will be confident of doing a double. Falcons will hope that their threatening backs can profit against an Irish defence that scrambles well. As so often this will probably come down to how the ref polices the scrums and breakdowns. Irish will be hoping Blair Cowan can bring his Scotland form back with him and secure ascendancy in the latter.

BT Sport
Saracens v Harlequins, Wembley Stadium, London 15:15 GMT
Having secured silverware last week, Sarries will be confident that they can handle a faltering Quins team. With the play-off situation so tight, they cannot afford to have any attention drawn to their trip to Paris next week. Quins have a weekend off next week, so may choose to play all their England men. Sarries will surely give BillyV the week off.
Sarries surely too strong.


Sun 29th

BT Sport
Sale Sharks v Gloucester Rugby, Salford City Stadium, Salford 14:00 BST
Sale seem to have dropped out of the Semis race and currently sit in the ECC playoff spot. They need to win this game to keep the breathing space they currently have. Gloucester have a challenge cup match with Connacht just 5 days later and will probably field a team this week that takes the short turn round into account.

London Welsh v Bath Rugby, Kassam Stadium, Oxford 14:30 BST
Bath have major injury crisis amongst their props. With a crunch ECC trip to Dublin next week and the need to give some rest to their England guys this will not be the strongest team they have put out. They are the only side to have allowed Welsh a point so far. Yet the only chance that LW have is surely if Bath forget the clocks went forward over night and arrive an hour late.

He was just running, awful awful decision. Got to feel for Wasps as they were doing well.

Ref bottled it. Why is such a young and inexperienced ref in charge?

Allowed the crowd to influence him.

Shocking decision.

Agree, not a red at all. Frankly, I was wondering if the referee went to the TMO to determine if it was a penalty at all. Looked completely accidental from my point of view.

Hopefully George North is OK.
If there are any questions about concussion, he must be held out for quite a while. 3 concussions in two months.

Hope he is OK. That should for his own sake be season over even if not seriously hurt.

Well, it'll be interesting to see the result of the citing panel.

HammerofThunor wrote:Well, it'll be interesting to see the result of the citing panel.

Yeah, I agree.  Shouldn't be anything.  

Penalty try.

I thought it was accidental'ish, in that I don't think there was any intent to hurt or inflict damage, however I believe he was caught as it were in two minds and chose the poor option to take the space close to the try scorer who then colided with his shin.

That was how I immediately saw it. Not malicious and so a yellow not a red.

TMO should have given assistance to the young ref. Very poor from him too.

Agree - hope North is okay.

beshocked wrote:TMO should have given assistance to the young ref. Very poor from him too.

I thought initially he was trying to guide him, when he suggested having another look when the lad first suggested red.

Poor call - think the ref let the crowd get to him

Saints rescued by the ref at home again - just like against LI a few weeks ago ... double whammy from the bad red call as they wouldn't have got that try without the penalty restart.

Frankly, I thought the referee was blowing up Saints in the first half over some very borderline calls. To me, it seemed he was losing control of the match before North was injured. I was thinking his match is a bridge too far for the referee at this point in time. Hopefully, both teams make it easy on him in the second half.

Its difficult as you have to allow young refs gain experience and its is a profession that is massively over criticised, but... that was as bad a decision as I've ever seen. Clearly not even a penalty, let alone red. He's then given a very soft penalty try and the penalty against Wade which led to the next try the tackler clearly never realised. The kid has gone to pieces and one of the other officials needs to step up and support him, otherwise this could descend into a farce. I feel immensely sorry for Wasps as they have been robbed.

Both teams will need to keep composed as this could go to pieces.
Ken Pisi is having a horrible match. Showing the same skill under the high ball he showed in that Leinster match.

The ref isn't having a great game but he isn't doing that badly. He does need to sin bin the next player that gobs off to him. Dickson is practically impersonating a footballer.

Still a good game but I think Wasps are going to run out of had soon.

Rugby is boring they said. The end of the six nations was a flash in the pan. Teams don't throw the ball around like that.

Well they are tonight. Shame it couldn't have been fifteen aside though. Hughes would have only added to that. Been a bit of spice in it as well.

I thought this was not a great game. The referee was not good and lost some control. The red card was a terrible call. Really put the match in the dumper when a big upset was possible.

Wade might even be considered for the national side.........

kingelderfield wrote:Wade might even be considered for the national side.........

Why? He only scored three tries.......
He does have serious speed. It would have been interesting to him up against North for a full match. That would have put to bed any questions about his ability to defend against bigger players. Either in his favour or against.

doctor_grey wrote:I thought this was not a great game.  The referee was not good and lost some control.  The red card was a terrible call.  Really put the match in the dumper when a big upset was possible.    

The teams need to take some responsibility for that too

I thought Hartley and Dickson were a disgrace. Really both could/should have been yellow carded for their constant backchat.

In the end the best result for my team.

Disappointing from the tmo about the red more than anyone. He really had the ability to lead the ref the right way but just agreed with him. I may be following the laws incorrectly but that looked blooming harsh and it looked initially, and by the 1st comment, like the tmo felt the same. Great game but could have been better.

LondonTiger wrote:I thought Hartley and Dickson were a disgrace. Really both could/should have been yellow carded for their constant backchat.

In the end the best result for my team.

Completely agree. I don't need to continue my vitriol on the ref as he should have controlled them, but as internationals they should not be behaving like this. Unfortunately what should have been a wonderful 80 point spectacle has been marred by a few individuals.

On a far more important note I do hope North is OK and it is extremely worrying to have a spate of concussions.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Disappointing from the tmo about the red more than anyone. He really had the ability to lead the ref the right way but just agreed with him

Ben Kay said the TMO couldn't openly contradict the ref, so did as much as he could. Ultimately, the ref was the senior match official and he had a good view on the screen. When he chose to stick to his guns, the TMO had to step aside.

As a neutral I should have watched that match and enjoyed ever minute. Unfortunately, instead of remembering a hard fought try fest - all I'm thinking about is a pathetic display by some senior Saints players and a shocking decision by a young ref who actually made a lot of decent calls.

I'm a bit confused on the role of the TMO. He makes the call when the ref says "try or no try". I've never seen a ref argue with a TMO over a try decision. However, when is comes to other examples like tonights card decision - his role seems little more than winding back the tape. Tonight he should have been more assertive e.g. "I don't think it's a red card but it's your decision".

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Disappointing from the tmo about the red more than anyone. He really had the ability to lead the ref the right way but just agreed with him

Ben Kay said the TMO couldn't openly contradict the ref, so did as much as he could. Ultimately, the ref was the senior match official and he had a good view on the screen. When he chose to stick to his guns, the TMO had to step aside.

Dont know the ins and outs but the ref asked him if he agreed with the red and he said yes. The tmo disagreed with Owens in the recent England game for the French wingers grounding dont know how much difference there is from AV to international rulings though.

For Hartley and Dickson to try and win a rugby match by trying to manipulate a young ref attempting to establish himself in what was presumably his first televised game is pretty pathetic. Says a lot about who they are as people if they consider that acceptable behaviour.

Feel for Hughes, Wasps and Johnson who without Haskell and Hughes looked like a real leader. I think Saints would have probably sneaked it even without the red, but it was still one of the worst calls I've seen.

I'm sure the ref would have preferred a quiet game without any controversy, however this will have been a good 'learning' experience.

Just watched the incident with North, agree with you all, it looks a very harsh call for the red.

Hope that North is ok but with being knocked out so many times in the last 6 weeks then I feel that should be the end of his season.

Agree on North. He shouldn't be playing again this season. That many concussions is dangerous. I think Parling was stood down for 3 months and North should be the same. WRU won't allow that though.

Some great banter with Dickson & Simpson last night.

Absolutely seething after this game.
Wasps were bossing this game before that awful decision on Nathan. Yes Saints were always going to come back but it ruined what should have been a great contest.
This was a massive game for Wasps and unfortunately that decision may well prove crucial as it is so tight at the top.

Unbelievably p***ed of!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Disappointing from the tmo about the red more than anyone. He really had the ability to lead the ref the right way but just agreed with him

Ben Kay said the TMO couldn't openly contradict the ref, so did as much as he could. Ultimately, the ref was the senior match official and he had a good view on the screen. When he chose to stick to his guns, the TMO had to step aside.

Dont know the ins and outs but the ref asked him if he agreed with the red and he said yes. The tmo disagreed with Owens in the recent England game for the French wingers grounding dont know how much difference there is from AV to international rulings though.

Kay was talking about the fact that the TMO at premiership games is often now a less senior official than the man in the middle. On this occasion, the TMO was Keith "Refblog" Lewis, who is a Championship referee. Maxwell-Keys is a new face but he still has more Premiership game time that Lewis, so is nominally the senior man. In international matches, all the officials are on the World Rugby Test panel, so, in principle, they have equal status.

Just watched the North incident and that boy needs a long break for his own health, as for the red card only the player himself knows whether he intended to leave his leg in, but imo he was a big fella which from my own experience means it's not easy to stop once you are running and judging from his and saints players reactions it was just one of those things. The ref reacted to the crowd who wanted blood.

Seen the incident (not the game itself) and I can't make my mind up weather he left his leg in there or not, as has been said only the player himself knows but it did look like he could have maybe done a bit more to avoid the coming together. Either way it wasn't malicious but did result in an injury. Tough one but what I've seen and read about Hughes he doesn't come across as a nasty player although we all get frustrated sometimes. Hopefully North is given some serious time off now to make sure everything is okay.

Disappointing to read on here about Hartley and Dickson basically intimidating the ref. If true than even as a Saints fan I'm not happy, just another example of rugby following football's lead and I truly hope respect for the officials is improved. If nothing else I hope the RFU have a word with the club and players themselves and warn about ramifications in the future for the overall good of the game.

You've got to be kidding me....the easiest try he weill ever score...no defence

Great run by Sinoti, but shocking hands from Alex Tait

Awful defence for the try. Irish have came out of the blocks well, we need to wake up. Sinoti looking good as normal.

I think Noah Cato will be looking for a new club in the summer...

.....and still the scrum issues trundle on....

Yea agree GF, he was unlucky there though. Our scrum is a shambles!

Geraghty?!?! Saved a pretty much certain try, very cynical

Sgt...whats your thoughts on Cattericks actual game management.

His actual running game is good, I just think they need to work on his territorial control and execution . But he's young and better than clegg and godman

I have also said before I would let Tiesi go and focus on bringing through Harris and Penny in that 13 spot.

He's getting there GF. Awful pass from Tiesi, we let them off there

Some absolutely atrocious kicking in the Sarries Quins game so far, Quins slightly worse but both terrible. Clifford has looked good, charge down try, turn over and tackles in less than 10 minutes.

Dear god our scrum is truly awful.

Irish being very cynical but their defence has been excellent, Cato is having a stinker

Yeah Cato looks lost.