Welsh Rugby Pyramid

First topic message reminder :

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The disenfranchised fans in Wales wouldn't turn up to watch the regions if they played in the Pro12 or the Super15 though.

Fair enough. Again FWIW. I think there should be a ground up process begun in Wales. In an attempt to build a proper pyramid structure.

Consulting with every member of Rugby clubs at every level. Find out what team/region etc. that the individual wants to have allegiance to.

Collate all the results no matter how outlandish and see if you can make an attempt to satisfy as many as possible.

At least if everyone had a vote (all you have to do to get one is join a Rugby club at any level if you are not already a member) it might be easier to sell the result to the people who lost the most.

Regional fans could vote on what smaller clubs they wanted to feed into them and visa versa through the tiers.

To me one of the main issues is that Regions are excluded from the grass roots AND from any input into team Wales.

Perhaps Roger the dodger leaving would be a good time to start the campaign?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:This is going off topic now, but why should amateur clubs who can't afford their electricity bills have any say on hos multi-million pound pro sports teams are run, and vice versa?

They shouldn't. But they should be able to decide which "Region" (or larger club in the case of small clubs) they want to feed into, even if it is one that doesn't currently exist.

Surely you would want a proper structure where everyone can row in the same direction? (barring those that are too pig headed to)

Anyway. Sorry for cluttering up your thread. Judgement Day = a good thing and I'll leave it at that.

Steffan wrote:Personally I think there are only 2 real options to change Welsh domestic rugby for the better

Fold the "regions", drop out of the Pro 12 and have a domestic Welsh club league of about 8 teams. This would allow more players to be exposed at competitive rugby and we wouldn't the player shortage like we do now. Plus we could halt the matches during the international period so players don't get injured in between and people are not paying good money to watch second string sides

The other is to install proper regions that represent the whole of Wales not just towns and cities and play in the Aviva Premiership. Plus games could be taken on the road. This would then be bringing rugby to the people as opposed to people being expected to turn up to one venue all the time

I would be happy with either of these options

Splitting this off from the current Judgement Day thread.

Sometimes outsider can see things that insiders are to close to notice. Other times they may be too naive and unaware of all of the issues.

Personally I don't think either of Steffan's options are good. What I am talking about is working within the existing Regional framework and trying to put a structure on it.

If a new Region is ever to be created then this process may help identify where that is best done. Obvious candidates are the RGC1404 and some form of Valleys team which roughly corresponds to Celtic warriors patch.

If the WRU forced through the RGC one because they could control it (against the wishes of the majority of fans/club members) That would be obvious.

If there were in fact not enough support for "Valleys Rugby" then at least you could say it had been looked at.

I'm sure most of you will say that I am.....

A: Naive.

B: know nothing about Welsh Rugby ans so should shut up

and/or

C: I am obsessed with getting everyone in Wales on the same page because I come from "union controlled" Ireland.

Sure so what. I have only wasted 10 minutes of my time.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:Now now LD, don't rile the Turks!

That is honestly not my intention, it's just how I see it, we have alienated almost 300,000 people to keep 40,000 - 80,000 people happy, the numbers do not add up.

I can see your point, but the attendance figures from the first season didn't show that.  Also the Scarlets are the only region that are an actual geographical region.  The Scarlets are Dyfyd.  Although I can totally understand that the best way to ensure that Wales didn't lose people from rugby would be to ensure that it is only in the south/south east that it is played professionally, that makes perfect sense

Ermmmm, Isn't Dyfed a county?  Same as Gwent.  Well, 'preserved counties' as they no longer exist after splitting into smaller country boroughs.  So Dragons have a 'region' in Gwent too really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preserved_counties_of_Wales

Chunky Norwich wrote:The population of the traditional Scarlets region (Ceredigion, Carms and Pembs) is approx 380,000

So the Scarlets cover Ceredigion now do they ? I though that was part of Mid Wales. Ok then I stand corrected. So I will give you your 380,000 and I will raise you over half a million between Mid Glamorgan and Powys, infact 556,200, 423,200 of those all close together not spread out over a massive area like West Wales. So we are alienating more people by not having a Mid Wales/Valleys region.

Pardon my ignorance. But was there enough interest in Rugby in North Wales in 2003 for a Region?

RGC1404 did not exist until 5 years later.

Pointless discussing what SHOULD have been done. You have to deal with what EXISTS and how to bring as many people with you as possible.

I would suggest (and I'm only an under informed outsider so don't shoot me) that if Clubs, Regions and WRU could all TRY to find a common purpose of some sort, then it could be better for all 3.

Going out and asking everyone from the lowest to the highest what they want, seems like a logical first step.

Then the lunatic fringe (whether they be disenfranchised Ponty fans, Regional ultras, Club or WRU blazers or pink cowboy hat wearers) will be exposed in their extremism and unwillingness to compromise, and people in the middle (i.e. the vast bulk I would imagine) would be able to move forward saying "we asked everybody and this is what they said"

gcBlues wrote:The blues do a lot of work in the valleys, held a kids camp recently in brecon too i believe which was well attended.

I am not arguing this, in fact, I am arguing more that the Blues should be a stand alone region, because they paid for it. No one else did, but what I am saying is, that it was all done wrong from the start, the WRU should not have allowed anybody to be stand alone, but because they were on their arris, they could do nowt about it, anyway, we are where we are, we cannot set ourselves back another decade and a half, so we MUST make what we have work.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The population of the traditional Scarlets region (Ceredigion, Carms and Pembs) is approx 380,000

So the Scarlets cover Ceredigion now do they ? I though that was part of Mid Wales. Ok then I stand corrected. So I will give you your 380,000 and I will raise you over half a million between Mid Glamorgan and Powys, infact 556,200, 423,200 of those all close together not spread out over a massive area like West Wales. So we are alienating more people by not having a Mid Wales/Valleys region.

Of course they cover Ceredigion. Newcastle Emlyn, Lampeter, Cardigan etc are 100% traditional Scarlets strongholds!

I have no idea what on earth the rest of your post is trying to say. Lots of people aren't represented by a region? Yes, that will always be the case unfortunately.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Lots of people aren't represented by a region? Yes, that will always be the case unfortunately.

Not if it was done properly from the start it wouldn't. If the super rich owners with massive egos did not threaten to take a bankrupt union to court, then it would have been done better. But lets not let that get in the way of this.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Then the lunatic fringe (whether they be disenfranchised Ponty fans, Regional ultras, Club or WRU blazers or pink cowboy hat wearers) will be exposed in their extremism and unwillingness to compromise, and people in the middle (i.e. the vast bulk I would imagine) would be able to move forward saying "we asked everybody and this is what they said"

Asking everybody is dangerous, democratic, seditious nonsense, Jen! Nobody who was ever anybody asked everybody what they thought.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Lots of people aren't represented by a region? Yes, that will always be the case unfortunately.

Not if it was done properly from the start it wouldn't. If the super rich owners with massive egos did not threaten to take a bankrupt union to court, then it would have been done better. But lets not let that get in the way of this.

You're just speculating.

Why should an owner of a business NOT fight to prevent it being shut down? What world are you living in where owners should go against articles of association and let their shareholders down by rolling over and voluntarily folding their business?

Would you expect Manchester United to be told to reform into "the Northern Buffalos" for the good of English football? Why is this any different?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Then the lunatic fringe (whether they be disenfranchised Ponty fans, Regional ultras, Club or WRU blazers or pink cowboy hat wearers) will be exposed in their extremism and unwillingness to compromise, and people in the middle (i.e. the vast bulk I would imagine) would be able to move forward saying "we asked everybody and this is what they said"

Who are "regional ultras?"

Griff wrote:

Ermmmm, Isn't Dyfed a county?  Same as Gwent.  Well, 'preserved counties' as they no longer exist after splitting into smaller country boroughs.  So Dragons have a 'region' in Gwent too really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preserved_counties_of_Wales

This makes sense of it for an outsider.

8 counties. 2 of them with tiny populations. The other 6 can have some aspirations to have a big enough population to sustain Pro Rugby.

4 of them do. (including the 2 with the smallest populations of the 6)

The other 2....... One of them is split between the Ospreys and the Blues (unhappily on the Ponty side, Dunno on the Bridgend side) And the other one is being developed as a region by the WRU. (RGC1401)

So you actually DO have regions. And they actually ARE geographical.

I realise youse lads know all this. I am just trying to get it straight for us outsiders.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Then the lunatic fringe (whether they be disenfranchised Ponty fans, Regional ultras, Club or WRU blazers or pink cowboy hat wearers) will be exposed in their extremism and unwillingness to compromise, and people in the middle (i.e. the vast bulk I would imagine) would be able to move forward saying "we asked everybody and this is what they said"

Who are "regional ultras?"

Funny you pick that one....

People who are Regional fans and "fock everything else" I would imagine.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Then the lunatic fringe (whether they be disenfranchised Ponty fans, Regional ultras, Club or WRU blazers or pink cowboy hat wearers) will be exposed in their extremism and unwillingness to compromise, and people in the middle (i.e. the vast bulk I would imagine) would be able to move forward saying "we asked everybody and this is what they said"

Who are "regional ultras?"

Funny you pick that one....

People who are Regional fans and "fock everything else" I would imagine.

I don't know any of those. Strange term to use.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Then the lunatic fringe (whether they be disenfranchised Ponty fans, Regional ultras, Club or WRU blazers or pink cowboy hat wearers) will be exposed in their extremism and unwillingness to compromise, and people in the middle (i.e. the vast bulk I would imagine) would be able to move forward saying "we asked everybody and this is what they said"

Who are "regional ultras?"

Funny you pick that one....

People who are Regional fans and "fock everything else" I would imagine.

I don't know any of those. Strange term to use.

I think the expression is from Italian soccer (And I'm no expert on soccer) Pick another term and I promise I'll use it from now on.

LordDowlais wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:Now now LD, don't rile the Turks!

That is honestly not my intention, it's just how I see it, we have alienated almost 300,000 people to keep 40,000 - 80,000 people happy, the numbers do not add up.

I can see your point, but the attendance figures from the first season didn't show that.  Also the Scarlets are the only region that are an actual geographical region.  The Scarlets are Dyfyd.  Although I can totally understand that the best way to ensure that Wales didn't lose people from rugby would be to ensure that it is only in the south/south east that it is played professionally, that makes perfect sense

No what makes perfect sense is, West Wales, East Wales, Mid Wales/Valleys, North Wales. Would you not agree ?

DYFYD IS WEST WALES!!!!! So the Scarlets would be the exact region of West Wales.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:Now now LD, don't rile the Turks!

That is honestly not my intention, it's just how I see it, we have alienated almost 300,000 people to keep 40,000 - 80,000 people happy, the numbers do not add up.

Your numbers do not add up.

What numbers do not add up ? I posted earlier in this thread the population of the biggest towns in the valleys and they added up to the same population as Swansea, Llanelli only has 44000 people living there, after Camarthen  there is not a lot in the way of population, Tenby, Saundersfoot,Pembroke Dock, then even further up the side of Wales Milford Haven,St Davids, Narberth, theses are all small towns/villages, I would say the valleys has three times the population of all of West Wales from Llanelli onwards. But that is what makes it such a beautiful part of the world for my liking.

Cough, City, Cough, Cough

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Then the lunatic fringe (whether they be disenfranchised Ponty fans, Regional ultras, Club or WRU blazers or pink cowboy hat wearers) will be exposed in their extremism and unwillingness to compromise, and people in the middle (i.e. the vast bulk I would imagine) would be able to move forward saying "we asked everybody and this is what they said"

Who are "regional ultras?"

Funny you pick that one....

People who are Regional fans and "fock everything else" I would imagine.

I don't know any of those. Strange term to use.

I think the expression is from Italian soccer (And I'm no expert on soccer) Pick another term and I promise I'll use it from now on.

It's a term used to desrcibe football hooligans and is entirely inappropriate to use to describe someone who is passionate about their region.

Griff wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

gcBlues wrote:Now now LD, don't rile the Turks!

That is honestly not my intention, it's just how I see it, we have alienated almost 300,000 people to keep 40,000 - 80,000 people happy, the numbers do not add up.

I can see your point, but the attendance figures from the first season didn't show that.  Also the Scarlets are the only region that are an actual geographical region.  The Scarlets are Dyfyd.  Although I can totally understand that the best way to ensure that Wales didn't lose people from rugby would be to ensure that it is only in the south/south east that it is played professionally, that makes perfect sense

Ermmmm, Isn't Dyfed a county?  Same as Gwent.  Well, 'preserved counties' as they no longer exist after splitting into smaller country boroughs.  So Dragons have a 'region' in Gwent too really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preserved_counties_of_Wales

True.

Although Dyfyd takes up about (near enough) a quarter of the country, so would be ideal as one of four 'geographic' regions (west). The same as Powys (mid/east) would make a good one. Then there would need to be a combined Glamorgan/Gwent for the South, and a combined Gwynedd/Clwyd for the north.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Although Dyfyd takes up about (near enough) a quarter of the country, so would be ideal as one of four 'geographic' regions (west).  The same as Powys (mid/east) would make a good one.  Then there would need to be a combined Glamorgan/Gwent for the South, and a combined Gwynedd/Clwyd for the north.

You're binning the Ospreys? The most successful of all the regions to date?

gcBlues wrote:
It's a term used to desrcibe football hooligans and is entirely inappropriate to use to describe someone who is passionate about their region.

Fair enough. I didn't realise. In Leinster we use it in the context of "Terrace Ultras" i.e. the hard core. The terrace in the RDS only houses about 1200 and they tend to be the most vocal etc. etc.

I wasn't calling anyone a hooligan

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The population of the traditional Scarlets region (Ceredigion, Carms and Pembs) is approx 380,000

So the Scarlets cover Ceredigion now do they ? I though that was part of Mid Wales. Ok then I stand corrected. So I will give you your 380,000 and I will raise you over half a million between Mid Glamorgan and Powys, infact 556,200, 423,200 of those all close together not spread out over a massive area like West Wales. So we are alienating more people by not having a Mid Wales/Valleys region.

Of course they cover Ceredigion. Newcastle Emlyn, Lampeter, Cardigan etc are 100% traditional Scarlets strongholds!

I have no idea what on earth the rest of your post is trying to say. Lots of people aren't represented by a  region? Yes, that will always be the case unfortunately.

Chunky, he is saying that the WRU should have killed the Scarlets (who had fans turning up from around their whole region) to allow the Warriors to survive (with fans who could be fupped to travel 30 miles), because even though their attendances were smaller, they have a bigger population over all.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Chunky, he is saying that the WRU should have killed the Scarlets (who had fans turning up from around their whole region) to allow the Warriors to survive (with fans who could be fupped to travel 30 miles), because even though their attendances were smaller, they have a bigger population over all.

Well that's even more bonkers than I originally thought.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Although Dyfyd takes up about (near enough) a quarter of the country, so would be ideal as one of four 'geographic' regions (west).  The same as Powys (mid/east) would make a good one.  Then there would need to be a combined Glamorgan/Gwent for the South, and a combined Gwynedd/Clwyd for the north.

You're binning the Ospreys? The most successful of all the regions to date?

I'm not sure he was being entirely serious..... Powys as a Region? should have been a giveaway.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Although Dyfyd takes up about (near enough) a quarter of the country, so would be ideal as one of four 'geographic' regions (west).  The same as Powys (mid/east) would make a good one.  Then there would need to be a combined Glamorgan/Gwent for the South, and a combined Gwynedd/Clwyd for the north.

You're binning the Ospreys? The most successful of all the regions to date?

I'm not sure he was being entirely serious..... Powys as a Region? should have been a giveaway.

Oh.

Ah. OK. You weren't either. Sorry. I'll step away from the thread for a while so.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Although Dyfyd takes up about (near enough) a quarter of the country, so would be ideal as one of four 'geographic' regions (west).  The same as Powys (mid/east) would make a good one.  Then there would need to be a combined Glamorgan/Gwent for the South, and a combined Gwynedd/Clwyd for the north.

You're binning the Ospreys? The most successful of all the regions to date?

You see? If Ospreys were just a Club, Scarlet could never bin it because of what a map looks like. That's the difference between the arguments for 'Regions' and one that might have gone on had they simply been called 'Clubs'.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Although Dyfyd takes up about (near enough) a quarter of the country, so would be ideal as one of four 'geographic' regions (west).  The same as Powys (mid/east) would make a good one.  Then there would need to be a combined Glamorgan/Gwent for the South, and a combined Gwynedd/Clwyd for the north.

You're binning the Ospreys? The most successful of all the regions to date?

You see?  If Ospreys were just a Club, Scarlet could never bin it because of what a map looks like.  That's the difference between the arguments for 'Regions' and one that might have gone on had they simply been called 'Clubs'.

But it doesn't matter NOW though. Because, as the CEO of the Blues said just yesterday, some people will never buy into it.

The regions will get more of an identity as each generation passes on. I'm only 30 but still have fond memories of some pre regional stuff. So realistically we are going to keep having the kind of threads for another 40-60, maybe more, years until the only ones left are those who have only ever know regions instead of clubs.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Although Dyfyd takes up about (near enough) a quarter of the country, so would be ideal as one of four 'geographic' regions (west).  The same as Powys (mid/east) would make a good one.  Then there would need to be a combined Glamorgan/Gwent for the South, and a combined Gwynedd/Clwyd for the north.

You're binning the Ospreys? The most successful of all the regions to date?

You see?  If Ospreys were just a Club, Scarlet could never bin it because of what a map looks like.  That's the difference between the arguments for 'Regions' and one that might have gone on had they simply been called 'Clubs'.

But it doesn't matter NOW though. Because, as the CEO of the Blues said just yesterday, some people will never buy into it.

You actually may be getting closer to the Main point there just as I'm thinking about it.

That kinda IS the issue.  Regions (the concept of them) are usually owned by the people.  
Irish Provincial borders are ancient and were created by chiefdoms, and then politics later refined those - just the same idea as county forming or country forming. But the people as a whole defined them.  If you didn't like the bollix across the river, then that was the border between two Provinces.  If you liked him but not the other guy a few miles to the west across another stream, then that became the new border.
I think the problem IS that Private Clubs/or amalgams of Clubs were granted ownership over the concept of 'Region' and therefore think themselves Regions that can't be disbanded - but they're really only Clubs that could be.  You can't disband Leinster because it's an area not a product.  You can disband Leinster Rugby because it's a product ...but Leinster the region would remain.  

Welsh Regional Rugby Businesses (Products) think of themselves as Regions but the unease all around about down there tells the truth that a Region is a Region, it's an area not a product.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

gcBlues wrote:
It's a term used to desrcibe football hooligans and is entirely inappropriate to use to describe someone who is passionate about their region.

Fair enough. I didn't realise. In Leinster we use it in the context of "Terrace Ultras" i.e. the hard core. The terrace in the RDS only houses about 1200 and they tend to be the most vocal etc. etc.

I wasn't calling anyone a hooligan

Oh i know mate, no worries. my concern is that people confuse the two types of 'ultras' so would rather there be no opportunity for confusion.

I not got a problem with those who don't buy into it after all it's their choice and we all have different views on different things.

I like many have bought into it and I enjoy going to watch the Dragons and have a good laugh when there, I also enjoy the double headers and think its a good idea which should be kept.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I not got a problem with those who don't buy into it after all it's their choice and we all have different views on different things.

I like many have bought into it and I enjoy going to watch the Dragons and have a good laugh when there, I also enjoy the double headers and think its a good idea which should be kept.

Oh back to the actual sport and game?????

Bedford, you spoilsport rotter!

bedfordwelsh wrote:I not got a problem with those who don't buy into it after all it's their choice and we all have different views on different things.

.

Absolutely. The problem I do have with it, is the way certain sets of fans (Llanelli, Cardiff, Blues and Scarlets mostly) get treated by those that say "they don't have anyone to support". Like itw as our fault that we wanted to continue to exist. How dare we.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I not got a problem with those who don't buy into it after all it's their choice and we all have different views on different things.

.

Absolutely. The problem I do have with it, is the way certain sets of fans (Llanelli, Cardiff, Blues and Scarlets mostly) get treated by those that say "they don't have anyone to support". Like itw as our fault that we wanted to continue to exist. How dare we.

That's the nub of it really. The warriors Region failed. That is very unfortunate but down to circumstances and not anything that the other regions (Or especially their fans) did. Yes it's sh1t. Yes most right thinking people have sympathy.


I wouldn't have a problem with people not buying into it either, provided they either....... Channelled their energies into creating the circumstances for the creation of another region (money... mouth etc.) or just let the rest get on with it without constantly shyten on about it at EVERY opportunity

Anyone else think that Ponty being such a strong club makes a valleys Region harder to create?

I have asked a few times for the Bridgend perspective. Are they happy in the Ospreys region? I don't hear much about that so I suppose they must be. Does that put yet another nail in the possibility of a Valleys region?

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Although Dyfyd takes up about (near enough) a quarter of the country, so would be ideal as one of four 'geographic' regions (west).  The same as Powys (mid/east) would make a good one.  Then there would need to be a combined Glamorgan/Gwent for the South, and a combined Gwynedd/Clwyd for the north.

You're binning the Ospreys? The most successful of all the regions to date?

You see?  If Ospreys were just a Club, Scarlet could never bin it because of what a map looks like.  That's the difference between the arguments for 'Regions' and one that might have gone on had they simply been called 'Clubs'.

But it doesn't matter NOW though. Because, as the CEO of the Blues said just yesterday, some people will never buy into it.

You actually may be getting closer to the Main point there just as I'm thinking about it.

That kinda IS the issue.  Regions (the concept of them) are usually owned by the people.  
Irish Provincial borders are ancient and were created by chiefdoms, and then politics later refined those - just the same idea as county forming or country forming.  But the people as a whole defined them.  If you didn't like the bollix across the river, then that was the border between two Provinces.  If you liked him but not the other guy a few miles to the west across another stream, then that became the new border.
I think the problem IS that Private Clubs/or amalgams of Clubs were granted ownership over the concept of 'Region' and therefore think themselves Regions that can't be disbanded - but they're really only Clubs that could be.  You can't disband Leinster because it's an area not a product.  You can disband Leinster Rugby because it's a product ...but Leinster the region would remain.  

Welsh Regional Rugby Businesses (Products) think of themselves as Regions but the unease all around about down there tells the truth that a Region is a Region, it's an area not a product.

I agree, this is/was/has been the problem.  The WRU did regional rugby on the cheap.  They couldn't afford 4 or 5 true regions based on geography so they used the existing businesses (clubs) owned by business men.  Those business men took all the risk while the WRU stood back and watched what happened.  And we had partnerships crumble, businesses go under, etc.

I often wonder if it would be different if regional rugby came in TODAY when the WRU are much better off, financially.  Would they still piggy back regionalism on the back of club owners, or would they set up something along county lines?  It's a very difficult one to guess.

Just to make things more complicated, some of the maps that have been shown here are actually old maps showing now defunct counties.  This map shows the current counties of Wales and paints and altogether much more complicated picture:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Then the lunatic fringe (whether they be disenfranchised Ponty fans, Regional ultras, Club or WRU blazers or pink cowboy hat wearers) will be exposed in their extremism and unwillingness to compromise, and people in the middle (i.e. the vast bulk I would imagine) would be able to move forward saying "we asked everybody and this is what they said"

Who are "regional ultras?"

I am

Griff wrote:

I often wonder if it would be different if regional rugby came in TODAY when the WRU are much better off, financially.  Would they still piggy back regionalism on the back of club owners, or would they set up something along county lines?  It's a very difficult one to guess.

A good point. While the benefactors have stumped up more than £40m over the last decade to prop up domestic Welsh rugby, the WRU have been able to cut it's debt by a huge amount. Those benefactors have therefore, subsidised pro welsh rugby and all the Grand Slams that have come with it. But what thanks have they got ?

The WRU was absolutely on it's knees when Moffett took over, there was no way on earth that they could have just started 4 manufactured professional teams from scratch and picked up the bill. They didn't have a dime.

Griff wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Although Dyfyd takes up about (near enough) a quarter of the country, so would be ideal as one of four 'geographic' regions (west).  The same as Powys (mid/east) would make a good one.  Then there would need to be a combined Glamorgan/Gwent for the South, and a combined Gwynedd/Clwyd for the north.

You're binning the Ospreys? The most successful of all the regions to date?

You see?  If Ospreys were just a Club, Scarlet could never bin it because of what a map looks like.  That's the difference between the arguments for 'Regions' and one that might have gone on had they simply been called 'Clubs'.

But it doesn't matter NOW though. Because, as the CEO of the Blues said just yesterday, some people will never buy into it.

You actually may be getting closer to the Main point there just as I'm thinking about it.

That kinda IS the issue.  Regions (the concept of them) are usually owned by the people.  
Irish Provincial borders are ancient and were created by chiefdoms, and then politics later refined those - just the same idea as county forming or country forming.  But the people as a whole defined them.  If you didn't like the bollix across the river, then that was the border between two Provinces.  If you liked him but not the other guy a few miles to the west across another stream, then that became the new border.
I think the problem IS that Private Clubs/or amalgams of Clubs were granted ownership over the concept of 'Region' and therefore think themselves Regions that can't be disbanded - but they're really only Clubs that could be.  You can't disband Leinster because it's an area not a product.  You can disband Leinster Rugby because it's a product ...but Leinster the region would remain.  

Welsh Regional Rugby Businesses (Products) think of themselves as Regions but the unease all around about down there tells the truth that a Region is a Region, it's an area not a product.

I agree, this is/was/has been the problem.  The WRU did regional rugby on the cheap.  They couldn't afford 4 or 5 true regions based on geography so they used the existing businesses (clubs) owned by business men.  Those business men took all the risk while the WRU stood back and watched what happened.  And we had partnerships crumble, businesses go under, etc.

I often wonder if it would be different if regional rugby came in TODAY when the WRU are much better off, financially.  Would they still piggy back regionalism on the back of club owners, or would they set up something along county lines?  It's a very difficult one to guess.

Just to make things more complicated, some of the maps that have been shown here are actually old maps showing now defunct counties.  This map shows the current counties of Wales and paints and altogether much more complicated picture:

Griff all it shows is that there are way way way too many counties in the south east

SS, it sort of follows the population density map though. That's where all the people live!

So 17 is where to live if you want some peace and quiet in Wales? The others down south are the bickering counties.

What about 7, 8, 9, 10,11 and 22? Is there no way they might like a Region of rugby up there to create a bit of North South tension?

Griff wrote:SS, it sort of follows the population density map though.  That's where all the people live!

I know, it was tongue in cheek.  And your right about the whole thing being a mess.

Geographic regions would be:
Dyfyd
Glamorgan/Gwent
Powys
Gwynedd/Clwyd

Going by this way there would be a region for the disgruntled fans to follow that would be a clear geographic region, and one that they would be well aware of being part of.  However there would be a serious issue with the Glamorgan/Gwent side being unbelievably strong, and having a huge populous to pull fans from, and Powys being unbelievably weaker with a very small populous to pull support from.

Population centred regions would be:
Cardiff
Swansea
Newport
Wrexham

These are the areas that are most likely to be able to support professional rugby the best.  It is no surprise that these are the same places that the well know welsh football teams hail from.  The issue of the teams all being close together hasn't really disappeared, with the exception of Wrexham.  And also this would still leave the people of the Valleys feeling left out, not knowing who they are mean to support.

Oh or there could be an option where they take the two and try to merge them
Blues
Dragons
Ospreys
Scarlets

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Griff wrote:

I often wonder if it would be different if regional rugby came in TODAY when the WRU are much better off, financially.  Would they still piggy back regionalism on the back of club owners, or would they set up something along county lines?  It's a very difficult one to guess.

A good point. While the benefactors have stumped up more than £40m over the last decade to prop up domestic Welsh rugby, the WRU have been able to cut it's debt by a huge amount. Those benefactors have therefore, subsidised pro welsh rugby and all the Grand Slams that have come with it. But what thanks have they got ?

The WRU was absolutely on it's knees when Moffett took over, there was no way on earth that they could have just started 4 manufactured professional teams from scratch and picked up the bill. They didn't have a dime.

Even if it was brought in today I still think the big would want to keep some of their historical identity which is where a lot of the fuss started from anyway.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Lots of people aren't represented by a region? Yes, that will always be the case unfortunately.

Not if it was done properly from the start it wouldn't. If the super rich owners with massive egos did not threaten to take a bankrupt union to court, then it would have been done better. But lets not let that get in the way of this.

You're just speculating.

Why should an owner of a business NOT fight to prevent it being shut down? What world are you living in where owners should go against articles of association and let their shareholders down by rolling over and voluntarily folding their business?

Would you expect Manchester United to be told to reform into "the Northern Buffalos" for the good of English football? Why is this any different?

Nobody was threatening to shut any businesses down though. I suggest you are seeing this through the eyes of a fan who has gotten what he wants from the start, why not try looking through the eyes of the fans who did not get what they want ?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:That's the nub of it really. The warriors Region failed.

This is what really boils my pee, so the warriors failed did they ? The Warriors were half a million quid in debt. Leyton Samuels sold them to the WRU and the WRU disbanded them, then fast forward a year or two, the same WRU bailed Scarlets out to the tune of a couple of million, and then bought half of Dragons. So if Warriors failed, then so did Scarlets and Dragons, so I do not buy into this failed crap, why weren't Warriors afforded the same rescue packages as the other two ? Look, I am not getting into this argument, we are where we are and we need to make it work, and it is just my opinion that things were done wrong from the start.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Even if it was brought in today I still think the big would want to keep some of their historical identity which is where a lot of the fuss started from anyway.

THIS, and whilst I agree 100% about what people are saying about the businessmen putting money in whilst the WRU reduced their debt. I cannot take it when I have fans on here especially from the Scarlets who have not really seen any change to their team except where they are now playing, which is incidently still in Llanelli.

LordDowlais wrote:

Nobody was threatening to shut any businesses down though. I suggest you are seeing this through the eyes of a fan who has gotten what he wants from the start, why not try looking through the eyes of the fans who did not get what they want ?

I'm seeing it through the eyes of someone who was faced with the prospect of his 130 year old rugby club being torn apart.

There's only one way a person in that position will act.

LordDowlais wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Even if it was brought in today I still think the big would want to keep some of their historical identity which is where a lot of the fuss started from anyway.

THIS, and whilst I agree 100% about what people are saying about the businessmen putting money in whilst the WRU reduced their debt. I cannot take it when I have fans on here especially from the Scarlets who have not really seen any change to their team except where they are now playing, which is incidently still in Llanelli.

I totally agree with bedford welsh's comment too.

I cannot fathom why you can't grasp it. I've tried to explain it in Man Utd terms, Leicester Tiger terms and Irish terms. They are brands that have been around decades and centuries. Who in their right mind would throw that away on a whim?

Chunky Norwich wrote:I'm seeing it through the eyes of someone who was faced with the prospect of his 130 year old rugby club being torn apart.

But Llanelli RFC are still going, they were never going to cease to exist, so why would you think this ? Or do you see Scarlets as still being Llanelli RFC ?

Chunky Norwich wrote:I cannot fathom why you can't grasp it. I've tried to explain it in Man Utd terms, Leicester Tiger terms and Irish terms. They are brands that have been around decades and centuries. Who in their right mind would throw that away on a whim?

Oh I do grasp it, I think it is you who is not grasping it, I do not think you realise just how luck you are, who did you support pre regionalism ? What sacrifices have you made since regionalism ? Just spare a thought to the half a million people who are expected to now go and support a team that they have no ties with, would you go and support Neath or Swansea ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:That's the nub of it really. The warriors Region failed.

This is what really boils my pee, so the warriors failed did they ? The Warriors were half a million quid in debt. Leyton Samuels sold them to the WRU and the WRU disbanded them, then fast forward a year or two, the same WRU bailed Scarlets out to the tune of a couple of million, and then bought half of Dragons. So if Warriors failed, then so did Scarlets and Dragons, so I do not buy into this failed crap, why weren't Warriors afforded the same rescue packages as the other two ? Look, I am not getting into this argument, we are where we are and we need to make it work, and it is just my opinion that things were done wrong from the start.

Fair enough. It was circumstances though. Billy BigBollix got them into a position where the WRU shut them down.

A/ Blame the WRU

B/ Blame Billy BigBollix

C/ Blame the financial management of Pontypridd

D/ Blame the fans who didn't show up for whatever reason.

You can hardly blame the Scarlets fans?

Why weren't they rescued? Who had the money? Could the Bridgend and Ponty sides agree on a rescue strategy? Dunno. I wasn't there and I'm certainly no expert.

As I said. It's sh1t, but no one either fought hard enough or had the money to save it. Perhaps they did in the case of the Scarlets or perhaps it was easier because they had a history.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:You can hardly blame the Scarlets fans?

I am not blaming Scarlets fans.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Perhaps they did in the case of the Scarlets or perhaps it was easier because they had a history.

As I said earlier, the WRU bailed Scarlets out, and it was a LOT more money than what they paid to disband Warriors, it's just the WRU only wanted 4 regions, and Warriors were the first chance they had to get rid of one.