A New Low for Pro 12 Referees

First topic message reminder :

[Edited so we don't get in trouble]

Something needs done here and quickly or the credibility of a bloody good competition is gone.

marty2086 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:I have never been disappointed with Ian Davies in charge, very good ref and always seems to be fair.

I thought he missed players from both sides going into rucks from the wrong angles and how many times did he let scrums go down with the ball at the back? Apparently thats unacceptable

Why can't the refs in our league get everything perfectly right, like their counter parts in the AP and Top 14!?

Am pretty sure they don't get it perfectly right all the time but the difference in standard is alarming and seems to be getting worse.

Dudley Phillips just cost Treviso a win with an incorrect penalty decision in the last few minutes of the game.

A truly dreadful referee.

Yeah i saw that, that was Australia-Scotland all over again. Shame as i thought he was not that bad up until that point in what was a very entertaining game.

What happened?

VinceWLB wrote: a very entertaining game.

Not for me it wasn't. We were dreadful. Some of the defending in that game was not professional standard. The Italian TMO also did a Marshall Kilgore and tried to cheat his way to a Treviso try when there was absolutely no evidence that the ball was grounded.

There has to be neutral TMOs soon, it's just a disgrace.

RDW_Scotland wrote:What happened?

A Scarlets tapped the ball behind and McLean caught the ball but the ref thought it came from a Treviso player and awarded a Scarlets penalty which was the wrong call.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

VinceWLB wrote: a very entertaining game.

Not for me it wasn't.

Thoroughly enjoyed it as a neutral and felt a bit sorry for Treviso at the end, Paulo is really a dreadful player..

But yeah D'amasco was pretty bad, better not have TMO at all.

Just for the balance of fairness, Bath have just been handed a try by the ref, was a forward pass but he refused to go to the TMO. If he had try would have been dis-allowed.

all refs make mistakes - and Pro 12 are no better or worse overall than other leagues. all those of you whining about pro 12 refs where are you going to find better ones who never make mistakes?

How can this just be a scrum? Awful, awful referee.

Dismal refereeing by Wayne Barnes says Dean Ryan after he handed out yellow cards.

Dismal refereeing of the scrum by ref says Mike Ford after Bath lose.

There's a momentum gathering week by week.

Pot Hale wrote:Dismal refereeing by Wayne Barnes says Dean Ryan after he handed out yellow cards.

Dismal refereeing of the scrum by ref says Mike Ford after Bath lose.

There's a momentum gathering week by week.  

Pot, why don't you put the whole Mike Ford quote up about the scrums, this might shut those idiots up, but I doubt it. As I've said before the standard of refereeing in ALL the Leagues up here is abysmal, there are very few consistently good ones.

I don't think the level of refereeing is any less than a few years ago, but maybe coaches, and fans, are better informed now with access to replays at their fingertips.

I watched an interview with Nigel Owens, on HardTalk, and he was saying that mistakes are made in every game. I can believe that because rugby union is an incredibly difficult game to ref. So many laws, so many moving parts. It's true that some refs are better than others, but all make mistakes.

Who on earth would want to be a ref when you think of all the abuse directed at them? It is one thankless job, but the lack of thanks isn't going to put people off becoming a ref. The constant bitching by armchair refs, sore losers (fans), and sore losers (coaches) is.

We all like a good moan but, for some, moaning is a way of life....

Very difficult game to referee. Especially the technicality and set piece elements. But when you have obvious wtf decisions in open play officiated completely inaccurately like the one above, it just makes you wonder if they are up to the job.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Very difficult game to referee. Especially the technicality and set piece elements. But when you have obvious wtf decisions in open play officiated completely inaccurately like the one above, it just makes you wonder if they are up to the job.

There are those moment's, Chunky, but some seem to treat every mistake as one of those moments, and some seem to think that any mistake must be the reason their side lost.

Sometimes a ref's decision will have the red mist descending on me but, generally speaking, I have no issue with the ref's. Even the ones I don't really like.

The TMO's? I think the use of TMO's has improved, but would still like more to be done.

And some like  chunky whinge moan and whine continually and allege conspiracies to rob their side.  Shut the flip up about it.  Its wrong, its childish and its tiresome - and usually because you do not understand the laws and you are completely one eyed

We know you hate the pro 12, hate the refs and hate anyone who disagrees with you .  WE GET IT  shut up

A quote from the Worcester forum...."premiership standard of refereeing is terrible at the moment, this weekends fixtures really do highlight it. Barns is meant to be of the best prem refs we have, certainly didnt show it. And watching the wasps game this evening is bad to, officials missing the most obvious decisions ever. Something needs to change IMO."

Please stop saying this is a problem exclusive to the Pro 12.

I think the point is that posters such as those mentioned are entitled to their views.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Please stop saying this is a problem exclusive to the Pro 12.

Who has said that?

Pot Hale wrote:I think the point is that posters such as those mentioned are entitled to their views.

though the Worcester forums are not exactly impartial. what punishment did they want for DOC when he pulled down a maul that had move 20m forward and was 3m from the line?

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Very difficult game to referee. Especially the technicality and set piece elements. But when you have obvious wtf decisions in open play officiated completely inaccurately like the one above, it just makes you wonder if they are up to the job.

There are those moment's, Chunky, but some seem to treat every mistake as one of those moments, and some seem to think that any mistake must be the reason their side lost.

Sometimes a ref's decision will have the red mist descending on me but, generally speaking, I have no issue with the ref's. Even the ones I don't really like.

The TMO's? I think the use of TMO's has improved, but would still like more to be done.

I agree with most of that Munchkin, but it's all a question of consistency for me. For example Davies is being praised for the Ulster/Edinburgh game, but you wouldn't think he had a good game if you listened to the commentators on BBC Scotland, who picked up on Ulster infringements being missed and challenged Edinburgh infringements being given despite Ulster being penalised twice as much as Edinburgh.

Do you think the use of the TMO has really improved? Take two incidents from the game, the penalty try and McCloskey try not being allowed.

In the Coman case the TMO conclusively mentioned foul and cynical play, but the referee made his own decision that it didn't warrant a yellow card.
For the McCloskey try the TMO response was "inconclusive" - i.e. may have been a try or may not have been a try, but Davies despite having said he thought it was a try earlier then decided it wasn't a try based on no new evidence.

The question that used to be in force was "is there any reason why I cannot award the try?", seems to have disappeared from the game. Referees are now abrogating responsibility for far too many key decisions, and that is undermining their authority on the pitch. The use of TMOs to referee a game by committee is not good for the game.

I think Davies made mistakes, but I also think he had a good game. His refereeing was consistent for both sides, and he allowed the game to flow as much as possible.

I've listened to the Scottish commentary before, and it can be biased, but so can Ulster's. Just not as much. Consistency in refereeing will never mean a consistency in criticism. Pundits see what they want to see, and say what they think fans want them to say. Neely is a passionate Ulster fan, and sometimes his passion rules his reason, and sometimes with hilarious consequences.

I think the use of TMO has improved as I've noticed that refs are asking the TMO to check incidents while allowing the game to continue, and not wasting time by stopping play. This is based on only a couple of games, but think it could be a new directive handed down as a result of criticism of the first RWC game.

I think McCloskey's Try was inconclusive, and the TMO had no option but to say it was inconclusive. The fact that Davies referred it to the TMO must mean that although Davies thought it was a Try, he wasn't sure.
Coman should have been carded. It was an obvious yellow, in my opinion, but overall I think Davies had a good game.
I noticed Kilgore was TMO for the Leinster v Ulster game, and we had someone from down there TMO the Edinburgh game. That could mean a change in appointing TMO's to their own Provinces. I hope so.

Coman was certainly lucky not to be carded - the only reason I can think he wasn't is that the play was so quick he might have acted out of reflex not realising he was offside rather than being cynical - or maybe the ref thought the penalty try enough sanction. Certainly a very lucky boy to stay on the field

On the inconclusive try - If the ref thought it was a try he asks " any reason not to award the try" and then inconclusive = try. If the reef has not seen the grounding but a try is possible he asks " try yes or no" and then inconclusive = no try

On pundits - simply ignore Andy Nichol - he is a passionate fan and has no clue about reffing.

Overall I thought the reffing OK apart from the usual issues with offside in the centres - something we need more officials to police properly - the ref simply cannot watch the breakdown and the offsidfe behind his back and if the TJ is on the offside line then he cannot see other things he should be looking out for. 5 officials are needed IMO to stop a lot of not errors but things the ref simply cannot see.

Use of TMO is still relativly new especially under the current directives - so is evolving still and is getting much better

The Great Aukster wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Very difficult game to referee. Especially the technicality and set piece elements. But when you have obvious wtf decisions in open play officiated completely inaccurately like the one above, it just makes you wonder if they are up to the job.

There are those moment's, Chunky, but some seem to treat every mistake as one of those moments, and some seem to think that any mistake must be the reason their side lost.

Sometimes a ref's decision will have the red mist descending on me but, generally speaking, I have no issue with the ref's. Even the ones I don't really like.

The TMO's? I think the use of TMO's has improved, but would still like more to be done.

I agree with most of that Munchkin, but it's all a question of consistency for me. For example Davies is being praised for the Ulster/Edinburgh game, but you wouldn't think he had a good game if you listened to the commentators on BBC Scotland, who picked up on Ulster infringements being missed and challenged Edinburgh infringements being given despite Ulster being penalised twice as much as Edinburgh.

Do you think the use of the TMO has really improved? Take two incidents from the game, the penalty try and McCloskey try not being allowed.

In the Coman case the TMO conclusively mentioned foul and cynical play, but the referee made his own decision that it didn't warrant a yellow card.
For the McCloskey try the TMO response was "inconclusive" - i.e. may have been a try or may not have been a try, but Davies despite having said he thought it was a try earlier then decided it wasn't a try based on no new evidence.

The question that used to be in force was "is there any reason why I cannot award the try?", seems to have disappeared from the game. Referees are now abrogating responsibility for far too many key decisions, and that is undermining their authority on the pitch. The use of TMOs to referee a game by committee is not good for the game.

Spot on, we all know it's a difficult game to ref and w all know mistakes will be made but surely all we want is consistency. Even basic things like some refs will play advantage for an age others hardly at all, some refs will make good use of the TMO others seem reluctant to use them etc etc.

Donncha O'Callaghan  vows to 'stop the new cheats in rugby'

Gets red carded     '

munkian wrote:Donncha O'Callaghan  vows to 'stop the new cheats in rugby'

Gets red carded     '

To be deliberately picky, O'Callaghan was not given a straight red card as your post might imply the way it is written. As I understand it from reports of the game, I did not see it myself, the issue the coach and fans had was the circumstances under which Barnes issued the first yellow card to O'Callaghan, and not the second yellow, which resulted in a red card being issued.
Here's an excerpt from the Telegraph report on the game to illustrate what I mean:

"But the game turned after O’Callaghan received his first yellow in controversial fashion, something that Dean Ryan was furious about afterwards. “Barnes was talking about leading into a ruck with the head. I’m sure he will change that the first time he gets in front of the press. But that’s what he says [on the mic]. From what we’ve seen there isn’t anything of that kind.”

As ever, in these circumstances, there'll be differing opinions on whether cards were warranted or not. I don't think that is going to change any day soon, whatever the standard of refereeing.

DOC was yellow carded both times without an official warning towards the team according to Wuss fans.

If that happened to a Welsh team in the pro 12, this place would be chaos with allegations of bias plus the conspiracies that would get thrown about.

I don't ever want to read Welsh regions are being hard done by Irish refs.

During the Zebre-Ospreys game we saw Lacey at his very best, ie giving the benefit of the doubt to the bigger teams. For Tipuric try and Ospreys 3rd tries, an Ospreys player never released the player and played the ball completely on the ground resulting to a turnover and an easy try. Not even the TMO was called upon. Terrible refereeing.

This fella reffing the Dragons v Munster game doing well. Not sure it was necessary to check the zebo double movement though.

Risca Rev wrote:This fella reffing the Dragons v Munster game doing well. Not sure it was necessary to check the zebo double movement though.

Crowd doesn't sound too pleased with the latest decision though.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:This fella reffing the Dragons v Munster game doing well. Not sure it was necessary to check the zebo double movement though.

Crowd doesn't sound too pleased with the latest decision though.

It should have been a scrum surely?