"5 existing laws that refs need not apply"

Very good read this

https://theblitzdefence.wordpress.com/2015/05/30/5-existing-rugby-laws-that-referees-need-to-apply/

The author seems obsessed with POM.

Hey ho...

Munchkin wrote:The author seems obsessed with POM.

Hey ho...

The blog must be Welsh.

Was thinking either that or a Weegie...

..maybe Chunky

My biggest gripe about the game today isn't the scrum or the breakdown but it is the offside line which is never reffed correctly, we would see more tries and more running rugby if that was the case, shame.

Players joining the maul from infront of the carrier has been a particular annoyance this year so I'm glad that got a mention. Disappointed that blockers, sorry 'dummy runners' didn't make the list though.

profitius wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The author seems obsessed with POM.

Hey ho...

The blog must be Welsh.

Why would that be? Or is it just a case of trying to turn another thread into a good old fashioned moan fest?

As for POM surely it shows he is skilled at living on the edge a bit like McCaw. I remember Donnacha Ryan at a game a PYS when a fan shouted "linesman watch the offsides and hands in their bloody good at cheating there" and Ryan turned to the crowd smoked and gave us a thumbs up. He appreciated that they live on the edge and were winning the battle to be on the right side of the ref.

Time killing before scrums drives me spare, its the 'cramp' that seems to inflict various front row players or locks just before they lack down, so the team get a breather I'd love to see clamped down on.

Why is this thread topic title the fact opposite of the actual article title?

Can some moderator correct this, please?

Hi guys, this is my first post after reading for the last hour or so, so please don't rip my character apart (That was a loose joke).

I'd like to adress this article as I don't think it comes from a particularly knowledgable place with regards to refereeing experience.

Being a ref myself I think we get slated all too often without due thought of what it is we're asked to do on an instance to instance basis...

Before I adress each item I have to apologies for my spelling and grammar, and just note that at each and every point of contact I could reasonably penalise nearly every action of every player for one reason or another and feel comfortable enough to explain why. We have a responsibility to the game to adhere to the laws as much as possible but within the games ethos.

1. Law 15.6 – Players must be on their feet at the ruck

The breakdown, an uncomprimising place that has been littered with lots of stipulations but every single player, team, coach and fan tries to cheat their way through!
Teams are coached to secure ball illegally, steal ball illegally and slow ball illegally, the elbows touching the ground occurance is massive, but has been forever! Mccw was the king of taking space, which was illegal in itself, to allow time for a defencive player to wrap themselves over the ball, which is illegal. With todays crackdown on players finding their way to the wrong side of the ruck (due to rucking being elliminated) defencive players are hit harder and earlier than ever before, meaning any player looking to turnover ball is expecting to be hit, and anticipating contact. The recent events of players 'scraping' beyond the ball has been stamped out, but the 'shoulder roll' as I like to call it still exists. Brian o Driscoll and Conrad Smith were master of this, but this is also being pinged regularly now. So players have reeled back to elbows, which in my view is a state of decency. I know I'll get slated for saying that, but if I follow the letter of the law and penalise every player who finds themselves at the breakdwn where one part of their body touches anything then I blow my whistle at EVERY breakdown! 100% of breakdowns see's a players hands touch the ground, hands, elbows, chests, knees etc in contact with the player on the ground.
The newest trend ive found in pro rugby is the tackling player not trying to regain his feet, but holding his position on top of the tackler for as long as possible while the next defencive player lays his body weight on top of him, and holds the attacking players jersey. Therefore allowing only his feet to touch the ground but in a very strong position.

I'm rambling so i'll highlight my key point, coaching and playing trends move faster than refereeing trends, similar to drug using and doping, we can't referee what teams don't try yet, and we can only react, so with a situation like 'elbows on the ground' it is of such minor conseuence that this is allowed. If a player only has hs elbow on the ground he has won the right to be there, and has a legal enough position to win the turnver as a defencive player is slow to be there. It may not be 100% correct, but it is one of the situations where refs are stronger than others.

Peter O'Mahony must have access to the same cloaking device that Richie McCaw as access to

Not sure of the details of blitzdefence but it seems to have an anti Irish agenda!

Fanster wrote:Not sure of the details of blitzdefence but it seems to have an anti Irish agenda!

What nationality ref are you?

VinceWLB wrote:My biggest gripe about the game today isn't the scrum or the breakdown but it is the offside line which is never reffed correctly, we would see more tries and more running rugby if that was the case, shame.

And it's one of the easiest to spot / enforce.

Not sure why that matters, but I am Welsh

Fanster wrote:Not sure why that matters, but I am Welsh

Welcome on board.

Always useful to know which bunker people are speaking from on this forum.....

My bunker moves between Leinster and Ulster each week.

Thats some bunker hopping, be carefull the rail bridge doesn't collapse while your traveling (joke)

As I stated I would support Wales, but was brought up in London and if I had to back a club it would be LW so I am a bit of an Englishman with strong Welsh heritage, yes you've guessed it I am a Jones.

I get frustrated by todays culture of referee bashing, it is petty and there are so few people brave enough to do it I don't understnd why everyone feels the right to comment on referee's characters constantly.

Fanster - its a vocal minority ( small) that denigrate refs

I disagree TJ, with the greatest of respect I hear most crowds booing ref decisions these days, a lot of players and coach's talk about ref performances, and pundits, pundits are the worst for deciding how good or bad refs are!

Not sure of the first nme of the Connacht coach Lamb, his actions recently really annoyed me, to show where the ref had faultered in a press conference after their loss to the Cardiff Blues was disgusting! If you want to go and analyse every decision ever made by every ref 50% of analasys teams will find 50% of the decisions wrong and the other 50% of analysis teams will find the opposing 50% of desicions wrong.

Fanster wrote:Thats some bunker hopping, be carefull the rail bridge doesn't collapse while your traveling (joke)

As I stated I would support Wales, but was brought up in London and if I had to back a club it would be LW so I am a bit of an Englishman with strong Welsh heritage, yes you've guessed it I am a Jones.

I get frustrated by todays culture of referee bashing, it is petty and there are so few people brave enough to do it I don't understnd why everyone feels the right to comment on referee's characters constantly.

Stick around Fanster. You'll come in handy next season (Pro12). If it's anything like this one, you'll end up quite busy defending refs. And if I were you I wouldn't defend a blasted one of them; because if you do, you only prove yourself biased and your opinion becomes void.

Fanster - there is a difference between the heat of the moment and in the cold light of day - and also with disagreeing with a decision and calling the ref a cheat. Of course everyone moans - but very few take it any further bar a vocal small minority

Oh and I quite agree - analyse any game you would find 50 pens not given to your team - and the opposition could do the same

I will defend them by nature, I have no problem commenting on the obvious and unwarranted mistakes, there are a fair few in recent memory, but I would put them in context too...

Wade dropping the ball over the tryline is unforgivable, and on par with the Welsh Irish 'same ball' fiasco of a few years ago.

I generally like to see refereeing performances as a whole, instead of focusing on the odd mistake, of which I've seen player given man of the match performances despite making some real clangers within the match.

Perspective is a beautifull thing, if anyone would just be brave enough to have some.

And on a side note, when i'm watching pro rugby, I quite enjoy refereeing errors, they are part of the game, and human nature.

I was speaking with Tappe Henning a few months ago, and he gave me a great insight into refereeing mindsets:

'If you are in a position to blame the referee for making the decision against you, you've aleady made the mistake of allowing the referee to make a decision in the first place.'

This is what it's all about I think.

Fanster wrote:I will defend them by nature, I have no problem commenting on the obvious and unwarranted mistakes, there are a fair few in recent memory, but I would put them in context too...

Wade dropping the ball over the tryline is unforgivable, and on par with the Welsh Irish 'same ball' fiasco of a few years ago.

Interesting.   What was your view of the "Welsh Irish 'same ball' fiasco", Fanster?   What were the errors made by the officials, and how do you think these could be avoided in the future?

A welsh rugby fan with a brain cell would not support London Welsh after growing up in London...

Fanster wrote:I was speaking with Tappe Henning a few months ago, and he gave me a great insight into refereeing mindsets:

'If you are in a position to blame the referee for making the decision against you, you've aleady made the mistake of allowing the referee to make a decision in the first place.'

This is what it's all about I think.

Love that - should go up in every dressing room !

P.S. Welcome to the only asylum run by the inmates !

Fanster wrote:

'If you are in a position to blame the referee for making the decision against you, you've aleady made the mistake of allowing the referee to make a decision in the first place.'

This is what it's all about I think.

This is the noble, "I'M A TOUGH RUGBY PLAYER AND WILL TAKE ANYTHING ON THE CHIN" line. Try telling this to a fan who's paid his hard earned corn to follow his team to the other side of the country only to see his team lose in the last minute of a game because the referee made an unforgiveable, inexplainable mistake.

Theres 80 min of rugby and overtime, thats a helluva lot of time for players to win or lose a game. A last min mistake is the same as any other. Refs are human so are players they ll all make mistakes.

No 7&1/2 wrote: Refs are human so are players they ll all make mistakes.

Totally agree. It's just a shame that the criticism of players and their match losing errors appears not to extend to officials sometimes.

Surely that should be the other way round!

Pot Hale

It was a communication error I think, the ref and linesman were flustered, player and crowd pressure were on them, and when the ref asked if the ball used was the same the linesman made an honest mistake.
In that scenario play should've been brought back, but as in every scenario Irish players were also switched off, the forwards had not chased hard enough to ensure a lineout should occur, the ref hadn't called lineout I think, and both right winger and full back were facing the wrong way (Don't quote me on that I am not 100%).

Saint - All of my friends (mostly Wasps fans) say the same thing

Chunky - Paying punters have the right for as high a refereeing as possible, I suggest if they are not happy with the current standard they involve themselves in the pathways and try to help develop referees. I do a bit of coordinating and every gameday there is a severe lack of referee's available, due to the unwillingness of the public to do the dirty job.

No. 7 &1/2 - I couldn't agree more, referee's make the odd mistake, if anyone who has referee'd a game knows the standard of professional referees is very high, and they have far more issues to consider than players, who make far more mistakes.

What do you think of Wayne Barnes' performance in the RWC 07 game, NZ v France Fanster?

Fanster wrote:Pot Hale

It was a communication error I think, the ref and linesman were flustered, player and crowd pressure were on them, and when the ref asked if the ball used was the same the linesman made an honest mistake.

Are you talking about the Peter Allan incident? If so, the 'honest' thing would have been to admit he wasn't sure it was the same ball. No one would have judged him for not being sure. It was such a shame, because he was much improved as a referee / assistant referee at that point.

Risca, I couldn't comment on the entire performance, but from my recollection isn't that the 'forward pass' game?

Luckless - Are you seriously accusing an assistant referee of lying? Thats a pretty huge accusation, if he wasn't sure he would've admitted he wasn't sure, I think the ball vanishing and then distributed to the hooker was just very quick and fluid outside of his eyeline.

I can understand peoples frustrations with mistakes such as this, and they are huge mistakes, but as always an Irish chaser forces a lineout and this mistake never happens.

Sorry, I took out the bit about Peter Allan lying - but then he can't have been sure it was the same ball, seeing as it wasn't the same ball, so saying he was sure was, let's say, unfortunate.

As I say, no one would have judged him if he'd admitted he wasn't sure, and it's a huge shame he didn't.

I agree, but the unsure decision was the easy one to make with the amount of player pressure upon them during conversation, once he had said he was sure, he probably thought any qualms he had beyond that would look like player pressure, or that he was lying.

If you ask me this would've been more damaging to the game, seemingly bowing to player pressure, we would see an uprising in players trying to pressure referees into decisions.

Lets ring it up to a large mistake of players punching or headbutting each other and getting sent off and costing the games proportion.

I am willing to bet I can name more player game loss actions than referee game losing actions.

The weird thing with that was (from memory) that Allen said it was fine. Kaplan then specifically asked if it was the same ball (in response to the Irish players complaints I expect). Allen responded with something like 'it's fine'. I think Kaplan asked a couple of time but at no point did Allen specifically confirm it was the same ball, just that the try was good.

Fanster wrote:I agree, but the unsure decision was the easy one to make with the amount of player pressure upon them during conversation, once he had said he was sure, he probably thought any qualms he had beyond that would look like player pressure, or that he was lying.

If you ask me this would've been more damaging to the game, seemingly bowing to player pressure, we would see an uprising in players trying to pressure referees into decisions.

Lets ring it up to a large mistake of players punching or headbutting each other and getting sent off and costing the games proportion.

I am willing to bet I can name more player game loss actions than referee game losing actions.

So you disallow the try and yellow card any players applying the pressure.

Hammer - As a referee I would have done exactly the same, asked the assistant if the try was good, and awarded the try.

I would also have spoken to Paul o Connell? as captain and explain players in numbers waiving their arms and raising their voices at me had no place in rugby and I would deal with any further actions accordingly, but then probably while slumping off and thinking oh dear what a mistake.

Nothing wrong with what Kaplan did. He checked with Allen and awarded it. What you seemed to be saying is that even if Allen wasn't sure if was the same ball he should have lied (not informed the ref) because it might look bad. I'm saying he should have said he's not sure (possibly not enough to disallow the try on its own anyway) and then yellow card the players who put it in his head to ask.

HammerofThunor wrote:The weird thing with that was (from memory) that Allen said it was fine. Kaplan then specifically asked if it was the same ball (in response to the Irish players complaints I expect).  Allen responded with something like 'it's fine'.  I think Kaplan asked a couple of time but at no point did Allen specifically confirm it was the same ball, just that the try was good.

It wasn't the only weird thing. The ball was kicked into touch hard enough to reach the crowd. Someone went to retrieve it. The linesman lined up alongside the Welsh hooker as a ballboy handed another ball to the hooker. Mistake No 1. and Mistake No 2.

The throw was then quickly taken with the hooker stepping into the field of play beside the linesman (mistake no. 3)

There then was a dispute about whether a lineout had formed, but it wasn't judged to have been so a quick throw was allowed and the try awarded.

Kaplan was undoubtedly under pressure and didn't like being approached by the Irish players protesting. He asked Allen if it was the same ball. Allen replied "it's fine" twice to Kaplan's question. Both officials apologised after the game for their errors.

Unlikely to happen again with the omnipresence of the TMO.

Since then there has been more emphasis on the officials about it being he same ball and untouched. Similar to the Welsh try against Argentina. Penalty awarded, the tee is brought on by the coaches. S Jones takes a quick tap and scores in the corner. The kicking tee being on the pitch is specifically mentioned in the laws as an example of a kick at goal being declared. After that point several refs pulled back teams due to the tee being on.

Ok now we are on the verge of looking for problems, I didn't say the assistant should lie at all, he made the original mistake of considering the ball to be the same that was kicked out, after that mistake anything he does is either sticking to his guns or caving under player pressure don't you think? The mistake that was made was apologised for after replaying the incident, not because a player has said so!

If we get into a scenario where referees question their decisions based on player reaction rugby is no longer rugby I feel.

Pot - you sound like your trying to sugest conspiracy and listing mistakes where they don't exist, have you ever run a line in a pro game? Your job is to ensure your positioning is correct, mark the spot and watch the ball, backtracking players, approaching players while talking to the ref, and with 80000 people on your back.

The linesman was at no point aware that the ball landed in the crowd, or a different ball was passed to the hooker, I know this because at the time he said there was no problem with the try, if we start questioning referee's characters then we have no game at all

The fact is as long as players and coaches work hard to cheat the laws and refs on a day to day basis at some points they are going to get some success from it, the fact we are talking about one incident is testament to the jobs they do don't you think?

Actually, I was intrigued enough to go back and check. I got it slightly wrong about what was said between Kaplan and Allen.

The players protested to Kaplan first. He shooed them away. He then went over to Allen to hear what he had to say. Allen immediately starts talking and from what I can make out above the noise of the crowd is:

"It's not a quick throw, he's taken the throw.."
Kaplan interrupt him and asks:
"Is it the correct ball?"
Yes, (indistinct), says Allen.
Kaplan asks "It is?"
Allen replies "yes, it is yeah"

This would indicate that Allen thought it wasn't a quick throw, therefore, the same, untouched ball law wouldn't apply. Presumably Kaplan must have thought different because he interrupted him and asked if it was the same ball.

At the time, I wondered if either or both officials were fully aware of the laws governing this situation - I believed they didn't.

There was a TMO available to check but he would only have been allowed to check the grounding at the time, if Irecall correctly.

Fanster wrote:

Pot - you sound like your trying to sugest conspiracy and listing mistakes where they don't exist, have you ever run a line in a pro game? Your job is to ensure your positioning is correct, mark the spot and watch the ball, backtracking players, approaching players while talking to the ref, and with 80000 people on your back.

The linesman was at no point aware that the ball landed in the crowd, or a different ball was passed to the hooker, I know this because at the time he said there was no problem with the try, if we start questioning referee's characters then we have no game at all

Oh come on - let's not descend into conspiracy theories so quickly. I'm pointing out the litany of errors around the one incident. The linesman watches the ball being kicked into touch and heading towards the crowd. He turns to run back to the spot where the ball was kicked since it went out on the full. Kaplan is facing towards the touchline as well watching a ballboy hand the ball to the Welsh hooker. The hooker then quickly throws to Phillips who runs and scores.

The fact that you say that the linesman was at no point aware that "a different ball was passed to the hooker" is actually not the point, nor is it accurate. The ballboy hands the ball to the hooker in front of the linesman. It doesn't matter whether if it's the same ball or a different one. You're not allowed take a quick throw.

The fact that Allen's first words to Kaplan are: "it wasn't a quick throw' is indicative of that.

Have a look at the incident yourself to refresh your memory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lHmPKq_Hx4

Risca Rev wrote:What do you think of Wayne Barnes' performance in the RWC 07 game, NZ v France Fanster?

I, like a lot of others, thought it was a very good performance.

I will go and rewatch the incident to refresh my memory, maybe you're right and my memory isn't what it was, it certainly wouldnt be the first time.

I'm not talking conspiracy, but are you seriously claiming both referee and assistant referee saw what happened but didn't want to acknowldge it?

I think he is suggesting they made errors in the heat of the moment. Thats all

TJ wrote:I think he is suggesting they made errors in the heat of the moment.  Thats all

Exactly - they made a number of errors.

My personal view is that Allen saw the throw-in as a legitimate lineout - hence his opening comment to Kaplan - "it wasn't a quick throw..."

Kaplan interrupted him, and asked if it was the correct ball. Allen, presumably still believing that it was a proper lineout replied that yes, it was yeah.

Two officials at cross purposes.

http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/2015/06/wayne-barnes-refereeing-masterclass-was.html

Wayne Barnes .