England side to face Ireland

by thomh Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:41 pm

Right, who and what do we want to see in this?

Our last warm up before the World Cup, and coming off a couple of poor set piece performances.

For me:

Front row

The scrum has been dodgy in both games, not helped by the French pitch in the second of course. For me Marler and Cole are nailed on prop starters and Marler needs the game time after his shoulder surgery. Both should start.

Hooker is tougher. Youngs was questionable in Paris but threw himself about in the loose. The lineout improved once George came on, though how much of this was down to him isn't clear. Some have argued that the lack of jumpers was the problem but there were a couple of clearly bad throws in their too. For me George should start this game. He needs experience and his set-piece work is strong which should give our backs more of a platform to run through the playbook, as much as they want to, before the group games.

Second row

Well Lawes and Launchbury are clearly the starters so we should get them on the pitch. Some suggestion that Launchbury isn't effective enough in the lineout to allow a back row without Tom Wood in it. Not sure if that's true myself, and we should probably use this game to find out.

Back row

Morgan has to start for me. He's our best 8 at this level when fit and on form, and if he's fit enough to have been selected then he needs to show it now. We can't be using group games against Wales and Australia for players to play themselves into form and fitness. As I mentioned I think we should have George throwing to a lineout without Wood in it, just to see whether that's really not an option with our current hookers, so Haskell and Robshaw on the flanks.

Half backs

Youngs and Ford have been first choice for a while so I'd give them another game to get back up to speed. If the set piece functions this time that should at least give them front foot ball from which to show their form.

Centres

Has to be Barritt and Joseph if fit, doesn't it? They're the first choice partnership-elect without ever having started a game together. Burgess and Slade need games as well but we'll get to that.

Back three

Nowell for me is first choice 11, with Watson and Brown. A lot have said that Ford looks better with an extra playmaker, which would mean Goode's case at 15 being advanced. Not sure how to reconcile that with the Six Nations game against Ireland, however.

Bench

Both Burgess and Slade could be there. Let's test the second playmaker theory by bringing Slade on in the centres and seeing how it affects Ford's performance. He and Burgess need the game time and Farrell doesn't, even if he'll inevitably be in the World Cup 23, quite rightly. I wouldn't want to explain it to him myself though.

Youngs has occasionally come off the bench and had a lineout shocker, worse than when he starts. I'd bring him on after 50 and see how he does. Maybe send Parling and Wood on with him for the club familiarity and lineout options.

Against Ireland I'd say it's more likely that we'll want to accelerate the pace at the end than close the game out, given the breakdown problems we've had against them before, so Care ahead of wigglesworth.

We should probably include Brookes on the bench as well and see how he copes at loosehead. Again a tight call as Wilson and Vunipola will need to play themselves into fitness.

What do people think?

by No 7&1/2 Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:39 pm

Spot on. I think the only players who may be able to sneak into a starting spot vs fiji are George and Slade and the 2nds a long shot more likely to cover the bench.

by Gwlad Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:25 pm

Question…who do you want as a back up centre for this game, Burgess or Slade or indeed do you think either is worth a start to get some high pressure experience? Bearing in mind BB and JJ (BJ!) has never started before.

by thomh Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:28 pm

Gwlad

See above - I'd have both on the bench for this game. Farrell's a certainty for the World Cup 23 but he's fit and apparently in typical form already, based on the first warm up, so I'd like to see those two both get a go from the bench.

Barritt and Joseph are likely to be first choice centres but have never started together, so if Barritt is fit then I think we have to go with them.

by yappysnap Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:08 pm

Our pack looks weak as, worryingly underpowered and if we can't get pace on the game to get ahead early we could be in for another long day of getting bullied by a more physical pack! This time without Easter, Attwood of Cipriani to come off the bench and turn in around.

by Hammersmith harrier Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:15 pm

I can't disagree with any of your reasoning there but the selection of Burgess does make me think that Farrell will be SL's preferred option at Fly Half which in fairness wouldn't be the worst idea against the Irish. Farrell won't be intimidated by the likes of Sexton but I do worry that Ford has those heavy hits in the back of his mind still.

by Gwlad Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:15 pm

yappysnap wrote:Our pack looks weak as, worryingly underpowered and if we can't get pace on the game to get ahead early we could be in for another long day of getting bullied by a more physical pack! This time without Easter, Attwood of Cipriani to come off the bench and turn in around.

Are you placing any significance on this next game? I assume Lancaster will go with a full first team selection?

by maestegmafia Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:23 pm

This should be a cracking test match, both teams have a great deal to prove to themselves in their last warm up game

by lostinwales Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:57 pm

I do think there is an extra gear to come. There has to be or else we are sunk.

To be honest all of the home nations have had some iffy moments so far in the warm up games but they are just that - a warm up. Better we mess up in those games than the RWC. Not long til we find out where the teams are really at.

by majesticimperialman Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:01 pm

I am no sure who i would like at Hooker to be honest. I think i would have Webber over Youngs in the starting line up.

With regards to Burgess a bench place in my opinion Barrit and Joseph to start.

Props? not sure who i would pick to start the game.

I would like to see May on one wing and Watson on the other. Nowell on the bench.

by ChequeredJersey Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:51 pm

That's probably the team I'd play too

by maestegmafia Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:00 am

lostinwales wrote:I do think there is an extra gear to come. There has to be or else we are sunk.

To be honest all of the home nations have had some iffy moments so far in the warm up games but they are just that - a warm up. Better we mess up in those games than the RWC. Not long til we find out where the teams are really at.

Find a set piece and you'll find that gear. But if England's pack is as poor as it was against France you'll have trouble.

by englandglory4ever Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:34 am

For me it's about England's discipline in the first 60 minutes. If the scores are level at that point then I expect them to blow Ireland away in the last 20. My fingers were crossed when I wrote that.

by maestegmafia Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:46 am

englandglory4ever wrote:For me it's about England's discipline in the first 60 minutes. If the scores are level at that point then I expect them to blow Ireland away in the last 20. My fingers were crossed when I wrote that.

Blow Ireland away with what?

Ireland are a very good team, a better team than France. England managed to even the score out in their favour a little in Paris last week in the final quarter, once France were resting their instrumental players.

But Lancaster has just jettisoned the English players that made the difference towards the closing stages of that match. It was Attwood and Easter up front providing impetus and Cipriani out the back displaying the creativity that flattered the result.

Ireland will be looking to get back on track after losing in Dublin for the first time since they very nearly beat the All Blacks 22 months ago.

by **George Carlin** Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:09 am

https://www.606v2.com/t60285-england-v-ireland-5-september

by englandglory4ever Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:56 am

England allowed France to rack up easy penalties through poor discipline. Then went on to score 2 very good tries and could easily have snatched it at the death. Improve the discipline and England will be very difficult to beat.

by maestegmafia Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:37 am

Oh I see...!

Myself, most people who watched the game and pretty much all the media that reported on the game saw it differently.

England's pack couldn't cope with their French counterparts they gave away endless penalties under pressure and the backs could do nothing but make further errors off back foot ball.

In the last quarter France subbed out most of their players and England brought on three lads who made a huge difference to their effort against a weakened French team.

England have now ejected those players from their squad and now don't have that option.

by thomh Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:05 am

Being realistic now we all know that was a rubbish England performance. However maestegmafia - remember that almost all replacements get used in every game and if they don't then the team on the pitch will often be knackered, so I don't think you can really hold against us the fact that France had used their bench by then. They would do pretty much the same in a World Cup game too.

Also quite implausible to credit the whole comeback to three replacements, even if they did play well. Cipriani took his try well but it was Ford who threw the 20m miss-pass to give him the ball 10m from the line in space; ford, brown, mako and Joseph who combined for the try at the end; and Jamie George who improved the lineout.

Left-field choice, but I'd consider putting Croft on the bench for the Ireland game. Not in the squad but he's been training with england so must be a reserve, and he's not played in so long that it would be good to assess his form and fitness in case we have to consider calling him up. He'd also give another lineout option.

by BamBam Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:30 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11833275/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-England-turn-to-Geoff-Parling-to-solve-line-out-woes.html

All this because our hooker can't be relied on to perform his primary duty

by **Rugby Fan** Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:52 am

thomh wrote:...Left-field choice, but I'd consider putting Croft on the bench for the Ireland game. Not in the squad but he's been training with england so must be a reserve

No sure that's allowed under tournament rules. Once the deadline for announcing the 31 man World Cup Squad passes, then I think no-one else is allowed to train with the squad, let alone play a match alongside them.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:55 am

BamBam wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11833275/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-England-turn-to-Geoff-Parling-to-solve-line-out-woes.html

All this because our hooker can't be relied on to perform his primary duty

The way I read the piece, Lawes is also being criticized for his lineout calling.

by **LondonTiger** Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:56 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
thomh wrote:...Left-field choice, but I'd consider putting Croft on the bench for the Ireland game. Not in the squad but he's been training with england so must be a reserve
No sure that's allowed under tournament rules. Once the deadline for announcing the 31 man World Cup Squad passes, then I think no-one else is allowed to train with the squad, let alone play a match alongside them.

The embargo is not in effect yet - but will be before the match.

by **LondonTiger** Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:00 am

That Chouly was able to keep getting in front of the front jumper (usually Lawes but he also intercepted a George to Attwood throw) suggests life was made easy for France. This was exacerbated by pretty much every call being a straight up and down jump.

I still do not understand why England fail to use Launchbury in the lineout, but in Paris we really had just two options for the bulk of the game - Lawes who was man-marked and Robshaw who we hit easily every time. If Parling and Wood come in we have 4 options.

by BamBam Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:01 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
BamBam wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11833275/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-England-turn-to-Geoff-Parling-to-solve-line-out-woes.html

All this because our hooker can't be relied on to perform his primary duty
The way I read the piece, Lawes is also being criticized for his lineout calling.

Is Lawes and Parling too lightweight a combo though?

And if we bring Parling in, do we also need Wood, assuming Robshaw is also used as he was last week? I just wondered whether we'd be losing out in open play

by thomh Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:35 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
thomh wrote:...Left-field choice, but I'd consider putting Croft on the bench for the Ireland game. Not in the squad but he's been training with england so must be a reserve
No sure that's allowed under tournament rules. Once the deadline for announcing the 31 man World Cup Squad passes, then I think no-one else is allowed to train with the squad, let alone play a match alongside them.

The embargo is not in effect yet - but will be before the match.

Really? We played Hendre Fourie in the equivalent game four years ago after he'd been left out of the squad.

by **LondonTiger** Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:37 am

From midnight on 31st August players from outside the squad are not allowed to train with the squad.

by thomh Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:38 am

Fair dos - didn't know that. Apparently the equivalent game last time was in August, presumably because we had to fly all the way to New Zealand afterwards.

by **LondonTiger** Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:39 am

Yeah think the game in dublin was after we named the squad but before the deadline.

by thomh Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:40 am

BamBam wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
BamBam wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11833275/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-England-turn-to-Geoff-Parling-to-solve-line-out-woes.html

All this because our hooker can't be relied on to perform his primary duty
The way I read the piece, Lawes is also being criticized for his lineout calling.

Is Lawes and Parling too lightweight a combo though?

And if we bring Parling in, do we also need Wood, assuming Robshaw is also used as he was last week? I just wondered whether we'd be losing out in open play

Yeh for me bringing both Parling and Wood in means moving a bit too close to the sort of pack that Wales pummelled in 2013. I know Launchbury played in that as well but he's bigger than Parling. Having a proper 8 and props with more experience now will help of course.

by Barney McGrew did it Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:08 pm

See this seems more evidence of a lack of intelligent rugby thinking to me – and I actually question SL’s tactical nous again here. We should look to the Aussies, even when they don’t have the rugby class they always play intelligently. We never seem to keep the opposition thinking by varying the restarts and LOs, for example. In the LO ANY ball on your own throw is better than no ball. So if the French had sussed us then vary it more, even throwing to the front. You absolutely have to win most of your own ball in the set-pieces. Does SL actually discuss and practice the various options here, because it all seems pre-set and doesn’t take into account what’s happening on the pitch? I’d ask SL to watch a little less RL and spend more time thinking about RU set-pieces like the LO, scrum, restart, breakdown…

by **George Carlin** Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:33 pm

BamBam wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11833275/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-England-turn-to-Geoff-Parling-to-solve-line-out-woes.html

All this because our hooker can't be relied on to perform his primary duty

I think that we're all ignoring the main issue highlighted in this article.

Which is that Jeff Parling seems to have grown a tail:
England side to face Ireland Parlin10

by thomh Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:43 pm

Very good.

by DaveM Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:06 pm

The interesting calls will be which centre is on the bench, and confirmation that Ford is the starting FH. I'm glad we are reinforcing the line-out - Launchbury had a poor game anyway - but I'm worried that SL thinks a backline with only one player-maker (presumably Ford) is sufficient to release the wide talent we have. Ford is going to be targeted all tournament if that is the plan. For this reason I hope Slade is on the bench and will have the chance to remove the limited Barritt from the starting line-up.

The pack should be ok, they just need to make sure they actually compete at the breakdown and don't offload before the contact.

by Duty281 Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:18 pm

The main expectation here from an England perspective is that the set-piece works and that the pack give a good account of themselves. Some cohesion amongst the backs would be nice, as well. Hopefully Slade gets at least a half.

Performance much more important than the result!

by yappysnap Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:36 pm

Gwlad wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Our pack looks weak as, worryingly underpowered and if we can't get pace on the game to get ahead early we could be in for another long day of getting bullied by a more physical pack! This time without Easter, Attwood of Cipriani to come off the bench and turn in around.

Are you placing any significance on this next game? I assume Lancaster will go with a full first team selection?

Yes, as a big loss or could cause some knew jerk reactions. Not just from SL but also from the media.

As a home RWC the press will be out for blood if we don't perform at 110% and that will cause a huge amount of pressure in the camp.

by yappysnap Sun Aug 30, 2015 7:52 pm

DaveM wrote:The interesting calls will be which centre is on the bench, and confirmation that Ford is the starting FH. I'm glad we are reinforcing the line-out - Launchbury had a poor game anyway - but I'm worried that SL thinks a backline with only one player-maker (presumably Ford) is sufficient to release the wide talent we have. Ford is going to be targeted all tournament if that is the plan. For this reason I hope Slade is on the bench and will have the chance to remove the limited Barritt from the starting line-up.

It'd also be good to see who ever is in the 10-13 channels vary their play a little. Last week it was easy for the French to defend aggressively as off any ball, be it slow or quick we only tried that deep pass back to player running on to it behind the gain line. Teo or three passes meant we'd lost 10 yards and the French had plenty of time to defend.

Saying that the few times Ford did take it flat to the line Haskell ran in his way and the others all looked baffled, so wtf can we do eh?

Burgess will sort it out though...

by Cyril Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:01 pm

yappysnap wrote:
DaveM wrote:The interesting calls will be which centre is on the bench, and confirmation that Ford is the starting FH. I'm glad we are reinforcing the line-out - Launchbury had a poor game anyway - but I'm worried that SL thinks a backline with only one player-maker (presumably Ford) is sufficient to release the wide talent we have. Ford is going to be targeted all tournament if that is the plan. For this reason I hope Slade is on the bench and will have the chance to remove the limited Barritt from the starting line-up.

It'd also be good to see who ever is in the 10-13 channels vary their play a little. Last week it was easy for the French to defend aggressively as off any ball, be it slow or quick we only tried that deep pass back to player running on to it behind the gain line. Teo or three passes meant we'd lost 10 yards and the French had plenty of time to defend.

Saying that the few times Ford did take it flat to the line Haskell ran in his way and the others all looked baffled, so wtf can we do eh?

Burgess will sort it out though...

England side to face Ireland Keep-calm-and-let-burgess-handle-it

by yappysnap Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:07 pm

I'm fairly sure that's up in the changing rooms at Twickenham.

by Pot Hale Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:11 pm

yappysnap wrote:

I'm fairly sure that's up in the changing rooms at Twickenham.

In the Irish changing rooms for next Saturday, I suspect.

by DaveM Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:16 pm

yappysnap wrote:
DaveM wrote:The interesting calls will be which centre is on the bench, and confirmation that Ford is the starting FH. I'm glad we are reinforcing the line-out - Launchbury had a poor game anyway - but I'm worried that SL thinks a backline with only one player-maker (presumably Ford) is sufficient to release the wide talent we have. Ford is going to be targeted all tournament if that is the plan. For this reason I hope Slade is on the bench and will have the chance to remove the limited Barritt from the starting line-up.

It'd also be good to see who ever is in the 10-13 channels vary their play a little. Last week it was easy for the French to defend aggressively as off any ball, be it slow or quick we only tried that deep pass back to player running on to it behind the gain line. Teo or three passes meant we'd lost 10 yards and the French had plenty of time to defend.

Saying that the few times Ford did take it flat to the line Haskell ran in his way and the others all looked baffled, so wtf can we do eh?

Well that's where having another play-maker in the side helps. Ford looked better when Cipriani (and dare I say Twelvetrees) came on. Slade will be England's 12 after the WC, the question is simply whether he can establish himself during this tournament.

by yappysnap Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:32 pm

1 poor game and Slade will be gone (like Eastmond)and we'll be back to Barritt and guys like him at 12.

by ChequeredJersey Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:29 pm

yappysnap wrote:1 poor game and Slade will be gone (like Eastmond)and we'll be back to Barritt and guys like him at 12.

Ah, the Allen approach. Where his entire int career is written off at age 22 no matter his form or how much he changes

by Poorfour Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:45 pm

yappysnap wrote:1 poor game and Slade will be gone (like Eastmond)and we'll be back to Barritt and guys like him at 12.

I think that's unlikely. Eastmond was always a fringe player who got his chance mainly because of the RFU's scheduling cockup. Had Tuilagi stayed fit, Eastmond might have had more of a chance, but a Ford, Eastmond, Joseph axis is just too vulnerable to the opposition repeatedly sending big runners down their channels.

Slade is part of the generation of players who've been developed through the age grades and the question has been when he would be ready for international rugby. The surprise is that it's been so soon. But he's a bigger lad than Eastmond, and the role he plays for England fits the "second playmaker" template better.

by DaveM Sun Aug 30, 2015 11:25 pm

yappysnap wrote:1 poor game and Slade will be gone (like Eastmond)and we'll be back to Barritt and guys like him at 12.

I think Eastmond's failure to make the cut is based on more than one (admittedly disastrous) performance. Eastmond just wasn't good enough to play 12 at the highest level. Slade is both a better all-round player, not to mention considerably bigger.

by maestegmafia Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:26 am

Looks like they see this as a must win game.

From the Guardian

"Chris Robshaw has urged England to make up for their “no-show” in Paris by delivering a statement of World Cup intent against Ireland on Saturday. England are now below their Pool A rivals Australia and Wales in the world rankings and have just 80 competitive minutes left in which to regather momentum before they kick off the tournament against Fiji on 18 September."

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/aug/30/chris-robshaw-england-ireland-twickenham-world-cup

by bedfordwelsh Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:05 am

Who would a loss be a bigger blow to preparation wise, England or Ireland?

by yappysnap Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:11 am

England.

Psychologically any more losses at home now will just ramp up the pressure

by maestegmafia Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:37 am

I think it is a good thing for both sides that this test does emulate the pressure of the RWC matches they are about to face.

The players will surely enjoy that pressure and us Rugby fans will enjoy a cracking match to watch.

by thomh Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:06 am

Yeh Ireland probably have more of a bedrock of confidence at this point, even if it's only a tiny points difference that has separated them from us over the last two Six Nations. It'd take more than a couple of warm up losses to shake them I think. As yappysnap said as well, the Twickenham element would make a loss harder to take for us.

by RubyGuby Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:17 pm

England are often at their most dangerous when they look vulnerable. And for me they look disjointed and vulnerable at the moment. It should be exciting thumbsup

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