QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October

by **George Carlin** Mon 12 Oct 2015, 7:23 am

First topic message reminder :

IRELAND v ARGENTINA

18 October 2015
KO: 13:00 BST (UTC+01)
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [tbc]

Ref: Jerome Garcès (France)
ARs: Romain Poite (France)and Chris Pollock (NZ)
TMO: George Ayoub (Australia)

A. Head to Head

15 Played 15
10 Won 5
0 Drawn 0
5 Lost 15
331 Points 283

B. Recent Form

14 June 2014
Estadio Monumental José Fierro, Tucumán
17 – 23 to Ireland

7 June 2014
Estadio Centenario, Resistencia
17 – 29 to Ireland

24 November 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
46 – 24 to Ireland

28 November 2010
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
29 – 9 to Ireland

22 November 2008
Croke Park, Dublin
17 – 3 to Ireland

30 September 2007
Parc des Princes, Paris, France
30 – 15 to Argentina

2 June 2007
Estadio José Amalfitani, Buenos Aires
16 – 0 to Argentina

C. TEAMS:

IRELAND
QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October - Page 3 Caitri10

QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October - Page 3 Caitri10

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
13. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
10. Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
5. Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
6. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
7. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) captain

Replacements;
16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster)
23. Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock/Leinster)

ARGENTINA
QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October - Page 3 Mia-ma11

QF3: Ireland v Argentina, 18 October - Page 3 Mia-ma11

15. Joaquin Tuculet
14. Santiago Cordero
13. Matías Moroni
12. Juan Martín Hernández
11. Juan Imhoff
10. Nicolás Sánchez
9. Martín Landajo
1. Marcos Ayerza
2. Agustín Creevy (c)
3. Ramiro Herrera
4. Guido Petti
5. Tomás Lavanini
6. Pablo Matera
7. Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe
8. Leonardo Senatore

Replacements:
16. Julián Montoya
17. Lucas Noguera
18. Juan Pablo Orlandi
19. Matías Alemanno
20. Facundo Isa
21. Tomás Cubelli
22. Jerónimo De La Fuente
23. Lucas González Amorosino

by carpet baboon Mon 12 Oct 2015, 6:02 pm

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:did anyone hear what Pape did to get the punch. some rumours going around that it wasnt holding SOB back?
Any merit in it?

There is a good angle. Pape grabs his shirt. Nothing else.
SOB was a little over the top.

by SecretFly Mon 12 Oct 2015, 6:26 pm

On a lighter note. Luke Fitz giving Rory McIlroy a golfing lesson.

by Artful_Dodger Mon 12 Oct 2015, 6:33 pm

Ireland 4/7
Argentina 2/1

Bookies have us to win by 5.

by ME-109 Mon 12 Oct 2015, 6:52 pm

Citing has been announced. Hearing tomorrow at 1pn

by **LondonTiger** Mon 12 Oct 2015, 7:33 pm

Bosch also cited.

http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/111753

by glamorganalun Mon 12 Oct 2015, 7:37 pm

On BBC website 2 week ban minimum for striking a player we may have seen the last of SOB, I hope not.

by Artful_Dodger Mon 12 Oct 2015, 7:41 pm

glamorganalun wrote:On BBC website 2 week ban minimum for striking a player we may have seen the last of SOB, I hope not.

The thing is, you often see something like a 4 week ban given for this with 2 weeks off for mitigating factors and further 2 weeks off for a previous clean record....or something equally silly.

by majesticimperialman Mon 12 Oct 2015, 7:46 pm

Should be a total ban from the rest of the rugby world cup.

by Artful_Dodger Mon 12 Oct 2015, 8:17 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Should be a total ban from the rest of the rugby world cup.

I wouldn't be too bothered by this if it wasn't for the massive inconsistencies that still exist. O'Brien punches someone in the abdomen and should be banned for the rest of the competition, Pocock knees someone in the abdomen and gets a warning. Similarly some of the stuff that went against the Polynesians in the groups was in stark contrast to the top tier teams. One that really went under the radar was Burgess's clothes line, which strangely saw Owen Farrell binned but no further action against Burgess.

by Artful_Dodger Mon 12 Oct 2015, 8:19 pm

Confirmed that Ruddock has been called up to replace O'Mahony by the way.

http://www.balls.ie/rugby/rhys-ruddock-world-cup-squad/312178

by SecretFly Mon 12 Oct 2015, 9:37 pm

Yeah, O'Brien's lawyer (me) is going to bring all that stuff up Dodger. I'll also call for a forensic swipe of Papé's right hand.

by SecretFly Mon 12 Oct 2015, 9:45 pm

Argentina btw must think they've died and gone to Heaven.
They get Ireland - the most boring side in Europe.
They get them without their Great Leader POC.
They get them without the force of nature O'Brien.
They get them without 'silent assassin' POM (not my name for him, found it in an paper article)
They get them without their regular 13.
They get them without possibly their renowned 10.
The get them straight after a brutal game.

And the Irish supposedly get all the 'luck'?

by John Cregan Mon 12 Oct 2015, 9:50 pm

Does a 2 week ban mean O'Brien misses semi or not. It appears unclear............

by Guest Mon 12 Oct 2015, 10:38 pm

If it comes in at the lower end, then a two week ban with a very strong possibility of it being reduced to one week for bringing nice biscuits to the hearing.

by marty2086 Mon 12 Oct 2015, 10:47 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Should be a total ban from the rest of the rugby world cup.

I wouldn't be too bothered by this if it wasn't for the massive inconsistencies that still exist. O'Brien punches someone in the abdomen and should be banned for the rest of the competition, Pocock knees someone in the abdomen and gets a warning. Similarly some of the stuff that went against the Polynesians in the groups was in stark contrast to the top tier teams. One that really went under the radar was Burgess's clothes line, which strangely saw Owen Farrell binned but no further action against Burgess.

Burgess got a warning, maybe given hes new to the game they took sympathy on him

by SecretFly Mon 12 Oct 2015, 10:50 pm

Burgess said he wasn't prepared to accept anything more - growled - and the lads let him off with his warning.

by marty2086 Mon 12 Oct 2015, 10:54 pm

Or he'd take his ball and go back to League where he could clothesline anything that moved

by **Pal Joey** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 12:16 am

and then get banned like he always did.

by Wi11 Tue 13 Oct 2015, 2:06 am

The case for Ireland:

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/team/3.html?class=1;orderby=against;spanmax1=13+Oct+2015;spanmin1=13+Oct+2012;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team;view=results

The case for Argentina:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSLUbvwXNUo

by **George Carlin** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 7:05 am

SecretFly wrote:Burgess said he wasn't prepared to accept anything more - growled - and the lads let him off with his warning.

by John Cregan Tue 13 Oct 2015, 8:52 am

Does a 2 week ban mean you miss the Sunday of the semi or you are ack the Sunday of the semi?? Not one media outlet has explained that.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 8:55 am

Artful_Dodger wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Should be a total ban from the rest of the rugby world cup.

I wouldn't be too bothered by this if it wasn't for the massive inconsistencies that still exist. O'Brien punches someone in the abdomen and should be banned for the rest of the competition, Pocock knees someone in the abdomen and gets a warning. Similarly some of the stuff that went against the Polynesians in the groups was in stark contrast to the top tier teams. One that really went under the radar was Burgess's clothes line, which strangely saw Owen Farrell binned but no further action against Burgess.

Burgess received a retrospective YC

by **rodders** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:03 am

McCarthy called up.

I think we will see the following team:-

15 Kearney
14 Bowe
13 Earls
12 Henshaw
11 Kearney
10 Madigan
9 Murray
8 Heaslip(c)
7 Henry
6 Henderson
5 Ryan
4 Toner
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

Bench: McGrath, Cronin, White, McCarthy,Murphy,Reddan, Jackson, Fitzgerald

If Ruddock is 100% fit Henderson may start at lock and Ryan drop to the bench and Murphy start.

Massive game, Argentina have to be marginal favorites for me - although with baltic conditions on their way maybe that won't help them....

by rapidsnowman Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:26 am

1st XV looks passable - the bench looks a bit - "use only in emergencies!"

Would Murphy be better on from the beginning as another ball carrier and hendo at lock. Then at least we have Ryan to bring on.

With POM and probably SOB missing, I feel we should have another specialist backrow on there.

by **rodders** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 9:35 am

rapidsnowman wrote:1st XV looks passable - the bench looks a bit - "use only in emergencies!"

Would Murphy be better on from the beginning as another ball carrier and hendo at lock. Then at least we have Ryan to bring on.

With POM and probably SOB missing, I feel we should have another specialist backrow on there.

Yeah could be but we'd need Ruddock fully fit as he would have to go straight on the bench. That might be the better option as Henderson gives us a bit more power in the scrum.

I'm just wondering the fact that McCarthy has come in instead of Touhy does he plan to bring him in straight away and McCarthy has more experience playing alongside Toner, Ryan and the front row and can slot straight in? Might Ryan start at 6 either.

There are a couple of options but not many...

by **Notch** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:03 am

I'm not sure if McCarthy coming in is so much about his familiarity with other players as it is about the fact Tuohy has been seriously mediocre for Ulster thus far this season.

by **Notch** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:05 am

But the rumblings on the grapevine about Sexton seem to be taking a more positive turn, he hasn't been ruled out yet.

Surprised a replacement for Payne hasn't been announced yet.

by Golden Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:10 am

Schmidt said after the match there would be 3 days of patching players up and 4 days of preparing for Argentina. Going by that all the replacements should be sorted today.

by SecretFly Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:24 am

Notch wrote:I'm not sure if McCarthy coming in is so much about his familiarity with other players as it is about the fact Tuohy has been seriously mediocre for Ulster thus far this season.

McCarty can be a bit of a wild loose cannon if a game loses shape.

by Golden Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:26 am

Was McCarthy called up as POC's replacement? Does that mean that POC has to depart the camp? We could have done with his presence there even if he isn't fit to train or play.

EDIT: Suppose hell be going in for a big operation so probably wont be of much use.

by **rodders** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:28 am

Notch wrote:But the rumblings on the grapevine about Sexton seem to be taking a more positive turn, he hasn't been ruled out yet.

Surprised a replacement for Payne hasn't been announced yet.

i would say if SOB gets banned then they won't replace Payne. They'll prioritize the back row and only call up a back if Sexton is out.

I can see Diack or Dom Ryan getting called up.

If Sexton might be out for Argentina then it looks like Boss or Marmion will get called up as Madigan can't be starting 10 and cover at 9 in training too.

by SecretFly Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:31 am

We can't have any tourist players watching from the sidelines at this point Golden if their presence stops another player from coming in, although I appreciate the point you're making.
Certain players that are no longer taking part should still be allowed stay in camp at the discretion of the Union involved or the Coach. Yes, someone like POC could provide a big presence to keep the mood of the team going in the right direction.

by TJ Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:35 am

For a neutral this game is the one I really want to see. Its a shame these two meet in the quarters - on performance so far they both deserve a semi at least. Should be an even game - too close to call in my book. Looking forward to it!

On the discussions about disciplinary - a punch should always be a yellow card. It has no place on the field of play. Elbow or kick red card. Simulation a la Didier Hoggba - warning then yellow. Unsportsmanlike conduct or whatever the equivalent is in rugby.

by thebandwagonsociety Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:41 am

There was a wasp on Pape's belly and SOB was only doing him a favour by swatting the fly away with an (almost) open palm before Pape got stung. Unfortunately SOB is like chuck norris in that a gentle swat from SOB can fell giant sequoia trees and monster second row enforcers like Pape.

by SecretFly Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:43 am

Too true. He should get a ban from the breakfast in the morning before the game. No more.

by **Biltong** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 10:50 am

rapidsnowman wrote:1st XV looks passable - the bench looks a bit - "use only in emergencies!"

Would Murphy be better on from the beginning as another ball carrier and hendo at lock. Then at least we have Ryan to bring on.

With POM and probably SOB missing, I feel we should have another specialist backrow on there.

Love that comment.

In case of emergeny only - loosen shoelaces.

by ME-109 Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:14 am

Time for an "I am Spartacus" moment from the collective. First time the team has not had either BOD or POC in a long time....and with POM and probably SOB out as well its going to be up to Best and others to step up...

by Nos na Gaoithe Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:16 am

I can understand that Argentina have looked intimidating. But let's look at this factually. What are the actual first-team changes that we have to make due to last week's decimation:

Henderson for POM
Henry for SOB
Madigan for Sexton
Ryan for POC

Now obviously we would never choose to lose those players. But those switches are not catastrophic. And, contrary to what a lot of people are saying, I think it will be POC's and Sexton's "presence" more than anything that will be most missed from that four. But on a pure physical and tactical level, again I don't think its the end of the world.

For example, with Sexton on the pitch we were probably going to fall into a much more territorial kicking game. Now that is something that would have worried me alot against Argentina. They look like they have some real pace in the loose this year. So just maybe, with Madigan on the field, we will now keep hold of the ball much more and hopefully gain a lot more penalties and subsequent attacking line-outs. Now, in a game that is gonna be all about the breakdown/recycling battle, Henry is going to offer something really important against Argentina who's game is based on immediate recycling. And will give a new balance to the back row that many of us were already calling for.

SOB was really immense the last day. But Henderson's switch can hopefully do something for us there as well and with Cronin shifted to the bench... we can still have a good line-breaker coming onto the field with 20 mins to go (wouldn't want to lose Best for a minute longer than that). My slight worry is that Henderson just may not be able to produce the same go-forward ball playing 6 with SOB now off the field, Healy looking slightly dodgy and POM gone too. But we will see.

So really, how much faith can you have had in Irish rugby if you think that those changes make us go from world-beaters (which is what people have been demanding for weeks)... to a team who are now suddenly second favorites against the least favourite SH side?

I think the injuries will in fact effect our WC ambitions. But that is due to the continuing attrition that might now accrue between here and the semis/final. It's not something that happens overnight. In the same way that JS and the team had clearly set out a long-term plan to deal with France at this WC... they will have been preparing meticulously for this Argentina game too.

by ME-109 Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:20 am

I would be surprised if Joe plays Henderson in the backrow given he did not give him any game time there in the warmups or the first couple of games. I feel he will go for a specialist backrow and go with Murphy or Ruddock. But given the extent of the injuries and possible bans he might. Not the way he operates though.

by Nos na Gaoithe Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:22 am

ME-109 wrote:I would be surprised if Joe plays Henderson in the backrow given he did not give him any game time there in the warmups or the first couple of games. I feel he will go for a specialist backrow and go with Murphy or Ruddock. But given the extent of the injuries and possible bans he might. Not the way he operates though.

You're probably right there. Not the type of thing JS does, is it. But I thought I read somewhere that he actually said they had been planning on giving Henderson a run-out at 6?

by **rodders** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:27 am

I'm confident. I don't think Joe would have expected to lose so many in one go but he'd have had plans in place for injury.

Every player knows their roles under Joe or they don't get picked - I think if we lose it will be because Argentina are a better side not because we are missing some players.

Definitely a 50:50 game though the way the Pumas are playing irrespective of injuries.

by SecretFly Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:28 am

If Madigan plays then he and the team should not expect to mimic the same intensity for a full 80 that we showed in the French game when he came on. It will have to be a more measured game for a time to virtually keep as many players on the field and fit for a prospective game the following week as possible.
Ireland must control the pace. And that can be an issue for a player like Madigan - his instinct is to go for the edges and that can force his players into a faster tempo game than they'd planned in the early stages.
And if the game loosens up due to a little too much eagerness to run from us then Argentina could knock us out of a rhythm we might never be able to reclaim.
I think this game needs to be solid and stilted and stop/start (boring if you will) - to stop Argentina getting into a rhythm - to frustrate them with slog.

by Golden Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:32 am

What are peoples thoughts on Healy vs McGrath?

I think I'd start McGrath. The French scrum was marching backwards towards the end of the game and Healy still isn't in top form. It would also up the impact off the bench. However maybe Healys big game experience could be crucial considering the injuries

by **rodders** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:33 am

Yeah I agree - his kicking range is nowhere near as good as Sextons so a lot is need from Murray in game management.

Madigan has a tendency to force the wide passes - he nearly had a couple of balls intercepted by France and if just one had of stuck we could well be facing the ABs and talking about a fly half crisis rather than praising how well he played, which he did but the margins are small.

by **rodders** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:35 am

Golden wrote:What are peoples thoughts on Healy vs McGrath?

I think I'd start McGrath. The French scrum was marching backwards towards the end of the game and Healy still isn't in top form. It would also up the impact off the bench. However maybe Healys big game experience could be crucial considering the injuries

My thoughts are exactly what you said Smile

I'd prefer McGrath packs down with White too so would start Healy but McGrath is probably in better form.

by Golden Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:38 am

Sure Healy should know White well enough. Don't really see the issue there.

by **rodders** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:44 am

Golden wrote:Sure Healy should know White well enough. Don't really see the issue there.

No I mean White is the weaker tight head so pairing him with the stronger scrumaging LH, McGrath, gives us a more solid option from the bench than bringing Healy and White on to finish the game.

by Golden Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:46 am

rodders wrote:
Golden wrote:Sure Healy should know White well enough. Don't really see the issue there.

No I mean White is the weaker tight head so pairing him with the stronger scrumaging LH, McGrath, gives us a more solid option from the bench than bringing Healy and White on to finish the game.

Ah got ya.

Whites not too bad though.

by **rodders** Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:49 am

Nope he's really impressed - scrum got stronger at the end against France.

by Nos na Gaoithe Tue 13 Oct 2015, 11:55 am

rodders wrote:Yeah I agree - his kicking range is nowhere near as good as Sextons so a lot is need from Murray in game management.

Madigan has a tendency to force the wide passes - he nearly had a couple of balls intercepted by France and if just one had of stuck we could well be facing the ABs and talking about a fly half crisis rather than praising how well he played, which he did but the margins are small.

I remember one of those passes... wouldn't fill you with confidence, would it? But in fairness to him he probably knew we had advantage and that was his passsing version of a garryowen to the corner or a grubber.

As regards SF's advice regarding a stop-start game. I agree that would help. It would be seriously tough to put in another intense pyshical display at the breakdown as against France. But how are we going to get a start-stop game and still control the ball? Also, if I remember right, Argentina pretty easily cut out our territorial kicking game way back in 2007. And this time round they can run it back far far better.

Sounds like we are gonna be chasing another series of Murray's box kick/garryowens. Now that is a game that could go either way. Fingers Crossed

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