Aviva Premiership- Round 2

League Positions:

Saracens 5
Gloucester 4
Leicester 4
Harlequins 4
Bath 4
Worcester 4
Northampton 1
Exeter 1
Wasps 1
Newcastle 0
London Irish 0
Sale 0



Fixtures:

Fri 23rd Oct 15

19:45 Gloucester v Saracens BT Sport
Both teams won last week and both looked impressive. Saracens will look to welcome the rest of their England contingent back to the fold and will be looking to make a real statement of intent this week. Glaws may also see some returnees, certainly no reason why hook should not play given he was around for much of pre-season and did not start for Wales. Following WC heartbreak though surely Greg Laidlaw will have a week off. Whether Hook or 12T is at 10 for the home team, you can be sure that Saracens will be trying to harry them. Really hoping we can see a head to head between Kvesic and Fraser. Also hoping that May is fit to play opposite Ashton.


20:00 Sale v Worcester
After a reasonable pre-season Sale were absolutely mullered by a highly efficient Sarries at the weekend. Steve Diamond will have read the riot act and this really is a must win game for them. Worcester may have surprised even themselves in beating Saints. That win will give them a little breathing space and also the confidence to believe the can travel up the M5/6 and pinch another win.



Sat 24th Oct 15

13:45 Northampton v Newcastle
Two sides who lost at the weekend, when both will have been expecting to win. With Franklin's Gardens being extended, Saints open their home season at Stadium mk and will be desperate to put a very poor performance at Sixways behind them. There was a real lack of ideas from the men in green who seemed to believe that they would just turn up and overpower Worcester. Add in some wonky throwing (and daft penalties) from former skipper Hartley and Saints were never able to impose themselves. Reports suggest that Falcons struggled a little at scrum time and massively at the breakdown - these will need to be addressed if their taleneted back line is not to find itself over-run.


14:00 Wasps v Bath
Wasps lost at the Stoop last week having resisted the urge to rush back their WC players. Looking decent in attack they struggled at the set piece and in defence. Fluidity improved when the replacements, most notably Robson, came on - but that may well have been due to the drop in intensity from Quins. Bath struggled in pre-season and should really have lost for the third time in a month to Exeter last weekend. Poor composure from the Chiefs plus a little Ford magic helped Bath squeak home. They will have to play better this weekend.


18:00 Exeter v London Irish
London Irish have a desperately difficult start to the season, with their most winnable fixture having been last weekend when Tigers came avisiting. Adding that defeat to 3 in pre-season and a visit to Sandy Lane is not what new coach Coventry would have been wanting, especially with Saracens and Bath up next. Both teams lost scrappy encounters that they feel they should have got more from. Exeter made innumerable visits to the Bath 22 leaving pointless far too often, while London Irish dropped the ball unopposed over the line and were held up on a second occasion. Exeter should be too strong and will probably look to involve England returnees Slade (starting rather than from the bench), Parling and Nowell. Exeter should be far too strong, especially if Paice is as wonky with his throwing for a second week.



Sun 25th Oct 15

14:00 Leicester v Harlequins BT Sport
Both teams won at the weekend, though Quins were probably more convincing. Leicester should be stronger this week as they re-integrate WC returnees and players who missed last week with niggles. Harlequins will however travel up to the East Midland firmly believing they can win and keen to put last seasons woeful performance in Friday night rain behind them. Breakdown will be key. Tigers are looking to play a much quicker game this season but that can be easily stemmed if Quins slow down possession. Meanwhile Tigers have to ensure that Quins do not build any offloading momentum. Probably will not be a classic as both teams will need a while to be at full oomph as new players and styles of play are introduced.

Not so sure about your verdict on Tigers and Quins there... Quins didn't quite catch fire on Friday but their new signings were looking well-integrated into the squad (and we've had the benefit of a full summer of Horwill and Jones). Add Brown and Care back in - as is expected for Sunday - and they will have a lot to offer in attack.

I hope it is a classic game - so long as we win - just suspect it will be a fairly scrappy affair and a few handbags.

LT wrote: Probably will not be a classic as both teams will need a while to be at full oomph as new players and styles of play are introduced.

Agree with that completely. I'm sure we'll see plenty of attacking endeavour from both teams but ultimately lots of knock-ons and passes going to ground. Which is perfect for me because I'd much rather watch 80 minutes of fat people pushing. A lot will hinge on whether the WC returnees benefited more from a week off than they would have from ~30 minutes playing together against LI.

I reckon we will see Goneva start and Ghiraldini, Cole and YoungsB on the bench. Hope we see Kitch and Slater at least participating in the warm ups.

It's really tough calling these games, with not knowing what World Cup players will come back in and how that might affect team dynamics.

Some really fascinating encounters with 4 games IMO being very tough to call.

Hope Sarries go for this team:

1.Mako
2.George
3.Du Plessis
4.Itoje (c)
5.Kruis
6.Brown
7.Fraser
8.Wray

9.De Kock
10.Hodgson
11.Ellery
12.Barritt
13.Streather
14.Ashton
15.Goode

16.Barrington
17.A hooker
18.A prop
19.Hamilton
20.Burger
21.Wigglesworth
22.Farrell
23.Wyles

To be honest at TH and hooker on the bench I don't know who is available with Figallo and Brits both still away.

For Glaws v Sarries I'm hoping for as good a game as last year's encounter, just without the injuries. We now have everyone back from the RWC, but I'd imagine we'd rest a few, most notably Laidlaw. I'd expect Glaws to go with the following: McCallister, Hibbard, Afoa, Savage, Stooke, Rowan, Kvesic, Morgan, Heinz, Hook, May, 36, Meakes, Sharples, Cook with Lindsay, Thomas, PDJ, Kalamfoni, Moriarty, Braley, Burns, Purdy on the bench.

As beshocked states there are 4 games that could go either way and it's really only Saints you'd be very confident of winning, which wonderful sums up how enjoyable and competitive the Jeff is.

I'll take a losing bp away at Tigers but I'm quietly confident of a win. Fingers crossed.

I didn't realise LI's first few games were so tough, depressing for them that they could quite easily go 4 games without a win!

If we play the first half like last week then I will despair.

If we play like we did in the second half (despite Gloucester taking their foot of the gas) then It will be better.

I still forsee a defeat though.

Geordie, I hate seeing you so negative after all that pre season optimism!

LondonTiger wrote:I reckon we will see Goneva start and Ghiraldini, Cole and YoungsB on the bench. Hope we see Kitch and Slater at least participating in the warm ups.

Talk on the offy is that Leo and YBY are out of Sundays game with hamstring and ankle injuries respectively. It will be interesting to see if they bring OTY in or back Thacker on the bench again. Kitto could come straight onto the bench for White as well I guess - although he only got here on Tuesday.

1.Logo
2.Bateman
3.Balmain
4.Williams
5.Fitzgerald
6.Croft
7.McCaffery
8.Pearce

9.Harrison
10.Bell

11.Goneva
12.Bai
13.Betham
14.Thompstone
15.Tait

16.Thacker or Youngs
17.Brugnara
18.Cole
19.De Chaves
20.Fonau
21.White or Kitto
22.Williams
23.Smith or Catchpole

Something like that then.

Man what happened to Tigers?

That team just looks so, meh...

(obviously they'll still probably make the play offs of the Jeff and Europe)

yappysnap wrote:Man what happened to Tigers?

That team just looks so, meh...

Try being a supporter


I think you may be surprised (or maybe I just hope) at the ability in that lineup. However I would much rather see:

Ayerza, Youngs, Cole, Kitch, Slater, Croft, O'Connor, Pearce, Youngs, Burns, Goneva, Tuilagi, Betham, Thompstone, Tait
Bench: Ghiraldini, Logo, Balmain, Fitzgerald, Fonua, Harrison, Williams, Morris

yappysnap wrote:Man what happened to Tigers?

That team just looks so, meh...

(obviously they'll still probably make the play offs of the Jeff and Europe)

Remember we're missing 6 of the first choice 8 forwards from that starting line up. The likes of Williams and Fitzgerald are good signings. Fitzgerald is in particular a big mobile lock who's won the Super 15 with the Chiefs. With half the back line missing as well that doesn't help. The pre season injury for Burns really was a kick in the knackers.

Should have some more quality back this weekend though with Cole, T Youngs and Goneva all set to return.

As LT and fkaS say it's the usual Tigers early season story of recent seasons with a long injury list of good players.

Plus our search for the marquee 12 to tie everything together is still on going - or to put it another way we seem to have been in negotiations with many but nothing has come through. If the JDV rumours come true then he will be a big improvement on what we currently have. He is also injured however...

On the bright side the youngsters and new signings we have do possess a lot of potential whilst currently not being the big names people have come to expect from Tigers over the years.

To sum up the injury situation here is an XV made from players unavailable for the weekend.

1.Ayerza 2.Ghirildini 3.Cole* 4.Slater 5.Kitchener 6.Barrow 7.O'Connor 8.Crane
9.Youngs 10.Burns 11.Benjamin 12.Roberts 13.Tuilagi 14.Camacho 15.Morris

*Cole may well be available but anyone who watched England in the RWC will know he seems far from fully fit and personally I'd want to see him given more time off.

Another season another huge list of Tigers injuries, just what do your conditioning team do?!

In all seriousness I didn't realise you'd got so many and to be honest Tigers have quite often been a team greater than the sum of their parts. I swing between expecting us to win and being happy if we manage a losing bp!

Several are injuries thanks to international duty like Slater, Rizzo, Ghilrildini, Ben Youngs. We've changed our medical team over the summer so hopefully it'll be less of a war zone in the physio room this season. Our fitness team do try and prepare the squad to peak after Christmas so I suppose that may involve pushing the players harder now than other teams. It's certainly been an issue previously.

If we decide not to rest anybody for tomorrow we'll have;

Mulipola, Youngs, Cole
Fitzgerald, Williams
Croft, Pearce, McCaffery
Harrison, Williams
Bai, Betham
Goneva, Tait, Thompstone

Can't see that though as Williams is still coming back from his ACL injury and the RWC boys played a lot of rugby. The injuries aren't quite as bad as in prior seasons.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Geordie, I hate seeing you so negative after all that pre season optimism!

I should be used to all the gash by now Bathman.

Honestly...I really thought we would be competitive this season. We've made some very good signings (in my opinion) and have had the bonus of additional time to work on our areas of disaster...like what they do on that big green thing out there.

But dear me the first half on Friday night was as bad as ive seen....

yappysnap wrote:I'll take a losing bp away at Tigers but I'm quietly confident of a win. Fingers crossed.

I didn't realise LI's first few games were so tough, depressing for them that they could quite easily go 4 games without a win!

Definitely a tough start for us, but then that's been the case in each of the last couple of seasons as well, so we're used to it by now. Interestingly, despite the defeat to Tigers at the weekend, a lot of Irish fans, myself included, could see the green shoots of recovery. There were lots of handling errors from us on Sunday, but that was because we actually handled the ball, as opposed to faring badly in a dire battle of aerial ping pong. The plan for this season is clearly to play ball in hand, with a fast paced offloading game. That will take time to all click, as the players have not been used to it, and certainly once we have Maitland and Tikoirotuma in that backline it will look a lot sharper.

I suspect things will be tough up until Christmas, but I am expecting us to improve as the season goes on, and ultimately as an Irish fan, as long as we are playing a more exciting brand of rugby again, I am not too bothered where we finish in the table this year, as long as it's not 12th!!!

Glaws team is up
Charlie Sharples; David Halaifonua, Billy Twelvetrees (capt), Bill Meakes, Jonny May; James Hook, Willi Heinz; Paddy McAllister, Richard Hibbard, John Afoa; Tom Savage, Sione Kalamafoni; Lewis Ludlow, Matt Kvesic, Ben Morgan

Replacements:

Tom Lindsay, Yann Thomas, Paul Doran-Jones, Elliott Stooke, Jacob Rowan, Callum Braley, Steve McColl, Mark Atkinson

Some strange calls in the pack. In theory we don't have a lock starting and I'm surprised not to see Moriarty feature. 36 at OC is not wholly unsurprising as he played there a couple of times in pre-season and it plays into the view held by the coaches that the OC is the defensive linchpin.

Sarries team:

Goode ; Ashton, Streather, Farrell, Ellery; Hodgson, De Kock; Mako V, George, Du Plessis; Kruis, Hamilton; Rhodes, Brown, Wray.

Replacements: Saunders, Gill, Lamositiele, Hargreaves, Fraser, Wigglesworth, Tompkins, Ransom.

HongKongCherry wrote:Sarries team:

Goode ; Ashton, Streather, Farrell, Ellery; Hodgson, De Kock; Mako V, George, Du Plessis; Kruis, Hamilton; Rhodes, Brown, Wray.

Replacements: Saunders, Gill, Lamositiele, Hargreaves, Fraser, Wigglesworth, Tompkins, Ransom.

Sale Team:

15.Mike Haley, 14. Tom Arscott, 13. Johnny Leota, 12. Sam Tuitupou, 11. Will Addison, 10. Danny Cipriani, 9. Chris Cusiter, 1. Ross Harrison, 2.Tommy Taylor, 3. Vadim Cobilas, 4. Bryn Evans, 5. Jonathan Mills, 6. Dan Braid (capt), 7. David Seymour, 8. Josh Beaumont


Replacements 16. Neil Briggs, 17. James Flynn, 18. Brian Mujati, 19. Andrei Ostrikov, 20. TJ Ioane, 21. Peter Stringer, 22. Nick Macleod, 23. Sam James

Warriors
15 Chris Pennell
14 Tom Biggs
13 Wynand Olivier
12 Ryan Mills
11 Cooper Vuna
10 Tom Heathcote
9 Jonny Arr
1 Na'ama Leleimalefaga
2 Niall Annett
3 Nick Schonert
4 Donncha O'Callaghan
5 Darren Barry
6 Phil Dowson
7 Marco Mama
8 GJ van Velze (C)

Replacements
16 Dan George
17 Val Rapava Ruskin
18 Joe Rees
19 Tevita Cavubati
20 Matt Cox
21 Charlie Mulchrone

Don't worry beshocked, some of our selections are pretty strange too. I'm just hoping we can defend your maul this time round as it was a shambles in January.

HongKongCherry wrote:Don't worry beshocked, some of our selections are pretty strange too.  I'm just hoping we can defend your maul this time round as it was a shambles in January.

I am worried HKC because it's stupid decisions like this that can cost teams matches.

Failed for England, let's try it at club level some more. Don't know what Farrell Jr does to bewitch the coaches. Perhaps he's a master of hypnotism - "You will pick me for England and Saracens", "Yes master".

Too often gets picked when not in form or out of position.

Let's also leave out two of our best academy players with great potential and pick foreigners instead in the pack too.

HongKongCherry wrote:Glaws team is up
Charlie Sharples; David Halaifonua, Billy Twelvetrees (capt), Bill Meakes, Jonny May; James Hook, Willi Heinz; Paddy McAllister, Richard Hibbard, John Afoa; Tom Savage, Sione Kalamafoni; Lewis Ludlow, Matt Kvesic, Ben Morgan

Replacements:

Tom Lindsay, Yann Thomas, Paul Doran-Jones, Elliott Stooke, Jacob Rowan, Callum Braley, Steve McColl, Mark Atkinson

Some strange calls in the pack. In theory we don't have a lock starting and I'm surprised not to see Moriarty feature. 36 at OC is not wholly unsurprising as he played there a couple of times in pre-season and it plays into the view held by the coaches that the OC is the defensive linchpin.

Why is Stooke and Jacob Rowan not starting?? Think that's a big mistake actually HK...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:Geordie, I hate seeing you so negative after all that pre season optimism!

I should be used to all the gash by now Bathman.

Honestly...I really thought we would be competitive this season. We've made some very good signings (in my opinion) and have had the bonus of additional time to work on our areas of disaster...like what they do on that big green thing out there.

But dear me the first half on Friday night was as bad as ive seen....

No need to brag Geordie, this is a rugby forum mate not tinder!

Ozzy3213 wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I'll take a losing bp away at Tigers but I'm quietly confident of a win. Fingers crossed.

I didn't realise LI's first few games were so tough, depressing for them that they could quite easily go 4 games without a win!

Definitely a tough start for us, but then that's been the case in each of the last couple of seasons as well, so we're used to it by now.  Interestingly, despite the defeat to Tigers at the weekend, a lot of Irish fans, myself included, could see the green shoots of recovery.  There were lots of handling errors from us on Sunday, but that was because we actually handled the ball, as opposed to faring badly in a dire battle of aerial ping pong.  The plan for this season is clearly to play ball in hand, with a fast paced offloading game.  That will take time to all click, as the players have not been used to it, and certainly once we have Maitland and Tikoirotuma in that backline it will look a lot sharper.  

I suspect things will be tough up until Christmas, but I am expecting us to improve as the season goes on, and ultimately as an Irish fan, as long as we are playing a more exciting brand of rugby again, I am not too bothered where we finish in the table this year, as long as it's not 12th!!!

I thought Tikoirotuma finished the RWC looking like one of Fiji's best players, he was playing far better then he ever did for us. Hopefully he'll carry that form into the Prem for you guys.

Weird Sarries team choices

ChequeredJersey wrote:Weird Sarries team choices

Trusting their squad.
Rotating players to avoid tiredness.
Blending RWC stars back into the lineup.


Or some other management speak.

Have to say with May on the left wing, Ashton on the right I hpe both players get the chance to show what they can do. Never usually works like that though.

yappysnap wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:Geordie, I hate seeing you so negative after all that pre season optimism!

I should be used to all the gash by now Bathman.

Honestly...I really thought we would be competitive this season. We've made some very good signings (in my opinion) and have had the bonus of additional time to work on our areas of disaster...like what they do on that big green thing out there.

But dear me the first half on Friday night was as bad as ive seen....

No need to brag Geordie, this is a rugby forum mate not tinder!

I wouldn't be complaining if it was that type Yappy...

LondonTiger wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Weird Sarries team choices

Trusting their squad.
Rotating players to avoid tiredness.
Blending RWC stars back into the lineup.


Or some other management speak.

They can use whatever management speak they want but it doesn't make the selection good.

The Farrell experiment at centre failed against Wales and Australia yet Mccall thinks it will work against Gloucester....

Hodgson will know how Ford feels....

HKC you should be laughing.

Sadly Londontiger having Farrell in the centres will hamper the Saracens backline. Wouldn't surprise me if May wins the head to head on that basis.

If Farrell was a 10 with Hodgson on the bench I wouldn't have a problem.

McCall is looking at the end picture, not just this weekend. When Sarries are competing in both club tournaments at the end of the season any selection quibbles now will be forgotten.

LondonTiger wrote:McCall is looking at the end picture, not just this weekend. When Sarries are competing in both club tournaments at the end of the season any selection quibbles now will be forgotten.

Assuming they win this match

Just seems a lot of weirdness all in one squad rather than spread out!

ChequeredJersey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:McCall is looking at the end picture, not just this weekend. When Sarries are competing in both club tournaments at the end of the season any selection quibbles now will be forgotten.

Assuming they win this match

Just seems a lot of weirdness all in one squad rather than spread out!

Should they win the title, a defeat on a wet October Friday will be forgotten.

Other than three England men coming in (Farrell, Mako and Kruis) it is the same XV that started on Saturday. Meanwhile there are two changes on the bench with club captain Hargreaves featuring and Jared Saunders replaces Porecki (who was signed as short term RWC cover) as reserve hooker and ensures the Saffer quota is maintained.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:Glaws team is up
Charlie Sharples; David Halaifonua, Billy Twelvetrees (capt), Bill Meakes, Jonny May; James Hook, Willi Heinz; Paddy McAllister, Richard Hibbard, John Afoa; Tom Savage, Sione Kalamafoni; Lewis Ludlow, Matt Kvesic, Ben Morgan

Replacements:

Tom Lindsay, Yann Thomas, Paul Doran-Jones, Elliott Stooke, Jacob Rowan, Callum Braley, Steve McColl, Mark Atkinson

Some strange calls in the pack. In theory we don't have a lock starting and I'm surprised not to see Moriarty feature. 36 at OC is not wholly unsurprising as he played there a couple of times in pre-season and it plays into the view held by the coaches that the OC is the defensive linchpin.

Why is Stooke and Jacob Rowan not starting?? Think that's a big mistake actually HK...

No idea Geordie. I thought Rowan in particular was excellent last week.

HongKongCherry wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:Glaws team is up
Charlie Sharples; David Halaifonua, Billy Twelvetrees (capt), Bill Meakes, Jonny May; James Hook, Willi Heinz; Paddy McAllister, Richard Hibbard, John Afoa; Tom Savage, Sione Kalamafoni; Lewis Ludlow, Matt Kvesic, Ben Morgan

Replacements:

Tom Lindsay, Yann Thomas, Paul Doran-Jones, Elliott Stooke, Jacob Rowan, Callum Braley, Steve McColl, Mark Atkinson

Some strange calls in the pack. In theory we don't have a lock starting and I'm surprised not to see Moriarty feature. 36 at OC is not wholly unsurprising as he played there a couple of times in pre-season and it plays into the view held by the coaches that the OC is the defensive linchpin.

Why is Stooke and Jacob Rowan not starting?? Think that's a big mistake actually HK...

No idea Geordie. I thought Rowan in particular was excellent last week.

Saracens bribed Glaws to rest him.

I prefer th new name to Jeff.

Why have you changed the title, LT?

Have you been in the salary cap review thread recently?

Sounds like a thread I have no interest in visiting

Well to summarise, no real penalties, private 'compensations' agreed, salary cap to increase £1M next year and £0.5M the year after. So nearly €10M.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/36947.php#zsItwRMcomS1gKdh.97

Oh good. Not a farce then. Let's keep it out of this thread, though?

Someone else will need to do this thread next week.

I much preferred the new name too. Utter bullschmidt

The league table as it should has Glaws in 1st with Sarries and Bath proping up the league on -35 and -36 points respectively. Relegation threatened Sarries will really need the points at the table toppers tonight