Ireland 2016 Squad

First topic message reminder :

So what would you like to see for the 6 nations and end of season tour of South Africa? Who would you like brought in and left out? Les Kiss and POC are gone, the only definites..


Players I think should be brought in to the squad or considered:
Olding - Utility back
McCloskey - center
Garry Ringrose - center
Marmion - scrum half
Luke McGrath - scrum half
Dave O'Callaghan - blindside
Sherry - hooker
Josh Van Der Flier - openside
Dan Leavy - backrow
Jack Conan - 8
Jack O'Donoghue - 8
Cj Stander - 8
Ross Moloney - lock
Marty Moore - tighthead
Matt Healy - winger
Cathal Marsh  - outhalf
Andrew Trimble - winger

Some of the best young (except Trimble) players in Ireland to consider.

Sin é wrote:World cup injury tally:

Tommy O'Donnell (out until new year)
Paul O'Connell ?
Peter O'Mahony (around April next year)
Jared Payne (2 month I think - next January)
Tommy Bowe (6 months - april next year)
Iain Henderson (latest - hand surgery - six week - end of Dec).

Bearing in mind that Leinster have the largest contingent of players, how did they avoid getting any players injured? Is it they don't try hard enough when playing for national side as they know they are going to be picked anyway?

Leinster players are more professional in their training. This is most obvious when you look at Jamie Heaslip, the most durable player in rugby despite playing in one of the most attritional positions.
Hopefully PoM will learn from spending such an extended period with his superiors and he won't have such problems in future.

Spending time with Heaslip hasn't helped SOB, Kev McLaughlin or Luke Fitz for injury prevention for starters

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:World cup injury tally:

Tommy O'Donnell (out until new year)
Paul O'Connell ?
Peter O'Mahony (around April next year)
Jared Payne (2 month I think - next January)
Tommy Bowe (6 months - april next year)
Iain Henderson (latest - hand surgery - six week - end of Dec).

Bearing in mind that Leinster have the largest contingent of players, how did they avoid getting any players injured? Is it they don't try hard enough when playing for national side as they know they are going to be picked anyway?

Leinster players are more professional in their training. This is most obvious when you look at Jamie Heaslip, the most durable player in rugby despite playing in one of the most attritional positions.
Hopefully PoM will learn from spending such an extended period with his superiors and he won't have such problems in future.

Yeah. Good point bringing up J'aime . When you see how well he did against a crocked Parisee, a just back from injury Picamoles and ex amateur Senatore then that really hammers home the point.

For me, Schmidt has a lot of difficult choices to make going forward. It is time to start dropping a few of the older players and bring in some young guns.

I understand his tendency to lean towards Leinster players in the beginning of his tenure as he knew them and they knew his style so I do not begrudge him for that but now is the time to look to broader in some respect.

I would like to see Marmion brought into the squad for the 6N. After Murray there is a very large drop in quality and the back-ups are getting on a bit.

I would like to also see him play Payne at 15, Payne's last man defence is crucial as I do not have much faith in Kearney's defence there. Payne also has the ability to run some excellent counter attacking lines from 15 and is not the slowest either.

Wings are a worry for me. Not enough speed there in attack or defence (highlighted against Argentina). Both Earls and Zebo have the speed and defensive capabilities but after them?

I would love to see Henshaw move to 13 but for next 6N I would leave him at 12 (experienced now) with maybe bringing Olding or McCloskey at 13 and interchange them during matches (if required).

10 - Sexton but he really has not been in form of late and after so many knocks to the head seems hesitant (cant blame him) so what to do? Show faith in Madigan (hard to do since he will more than likely be 2nd fiddle to Sexton at Leinster) or Jackson? To me, its show faith in Jackson as I believe he is the more complete 10 but Ireland need to look at JJ as well, just to get him involved in the setup and try to tempt him back to Ireland.

I would make POM the captain and build the pack around him and Henderson (who I believe is going to be a huge player for Ireland).

Marmion was terrible for the last half of last season  -he had a shocker for the wolfhounds against the Saxons too, when he had the chance to show what he can do. Luke McGrath is a better player at the minute but behind Reddan there is a big drop off.

At 10 neither Jackson, with his place kicking specifically, or Madigan have stepped up to the plate. JJ has a 2 year deal with Saints and as of yet has done nothing at senior level to warrant an international call up. Jackson is playing very well for Ulster but needs to place kick more consistently, with Sexton returning to Leinster Madigan needs to work out whether he is happy to be a utility back or a starting fly half elsewhere.

These are not Schmidt's problems to sort out but the players and their provincial coaches/Nucifera - he can't pick players that just aren't good enough or he doesn't trust.

I don't agree that he picks too many Leinster players - I think he picks players who know their roles and how he wants to play - obviously that is going to favor guys who played under him for Leinster when their are tight calls.

Which players do people feel were left out in favor of Leinster men?

Luke McGrath is decent and he or Marmion should be looked at rodders.

Jackson, to me, is not a bad place kicker but not a standout either. That said, I feel he is the more complete 10 than Madigan. The Utility back thing is an issue for Madigan and I have long thought he would become Ireland's Hook. JJ has proved himself in the past but needs to prove himself again at Saints but I am not worried about that.

I believe that Schmidt, as national coach, should have some sort of influence on the provinces myself.

eirebilly wrote:Luke McGrath is decent and he or Marmion should be looked at rodders.

Jackson, to me, is not a bad place kicker but not a standout either. That said, I feel he is the more complete 10 than Madigan. The Utility back thing is an issue for Madigan and I have long thought he would become Ireland's Hook. JJ has proved himself in the past but needs to prove himself again at Saints but I am not worried about that.

I believe that Schmidt, as national coach, should have some sort of influence on the provinces myself.

Well I am worried about JJ because we have no decent back ups to Sexton who is becoming increasing injury prone. Jackson is better all round than Madigan but even as an Ulster fan I don't trust him to nail his place kicks in big games, especially at long range. Madigan blows hot and cold and is a decent impact player but can't control a game over 80min imo - his kicking from hand isn't good enough.

Both Madser and Jackson need to improve but really we need JJ to nail down a place at Saints and also Keatley to keep improving at Munster. It says it all that we had to call up Isaac Boss - another injury to Madigan and we'd have been down to Ian Humphreys!

Nucifera is director of rugby so it's his job to deal directly with the provinces not Schmidt.

I'm a bit worried about second row - Henderson, Toner and Ryan are international quality but then there is a bit of a drop off to Touhy, McCarthy and Foley.

I think the RWC did highlight what was always known that we do need Sexton and O'Connell against the very best teams. We've definitely lost the big man but I think Schmidt needs to be working towards the former too. But as I said previously the onus is on these players to step up to the plate as well.

rodders wrote:

Nucifera is director of rugby so it's his job to deal directly with the provinces not Schmidt.

...in union with the requirements of the National coach.
Nucifora is responsible for ensuring Schmidt has players to select from that are up to the standards required. So yes, he's an important man in that linkup between Province and the National squad. Again, I feel his role should be about 'encouraging' Provinces to up the climate of inner pressure on players whilst at the same time increasing the ability of players to give all they have under that pressure.
I believe that should be more his role than in isolating individual players or simply making eternal 'possible' lists based on observations. His role should very much be one of helping Provinces to create those players, not simply waiting for said players to emerge or 'find form'.
But the conversations Nucifora has with Schmidt are important. Schmidt is the gameplan man and we need players to service it.

Honestly I don't see us reaching the point where the provinces don't have autonomy over their own tactics and style of rugby.

Unless Schmidt and Nucifera have the say as to who coaches the provinces it won't happen - can you imagine the IRFU telling Munster they had to replace Foley with a Kiwi coach?

We won't ever fully reach the NZ model, where everything is top down for the sole benefit of the national side.

rodders wrote:Honestly I don't see us reaching the point where the provinces don't have autonomy over their own tactics and style of rugby.

Unless Schmidt and Nucifera have the say as to who coaches the provinces it won't happen - can you imagine the IRFU telling Munster they had to replace Foley with a Kiwi coach?

We won't ever fully reach the NZ model, where everything is top down for the sole benefit of the national side.

Can you imagine IRFU telling any of the provinces that they had to sack all non-kiwi coaches?

Nucifora has a say in who coaches the Provinces - didn't he try and stop Leo's appointment in Leinster?

I hope Nucifora points out to Schmidt that his going to have to rethink his rugby philosophy and come up with a better gameplan for Ireland.

rodders wrote:Honestly I don't see us reaching the point where the provinces don't have autonomy over their own tactics and style of rugby.

Unless Schmidt and Nucifera have the say as to who coaches the provinces it won't happen - can you imagine the IRFU telling Munster they had to replace Foley with a Kiwi coach?

We won't ever fully reach the NZ model, where everything is top down for the sole benefit of the national side.

Now we're getting around to what I'm hinting at.....................   But I'm not suggesting that should be happening tomorrow or next year or anytime in the near future.  

But yes, a development towards a complete structure of top-down designed for excellence through all levels should be the outlook in my eyes.  Indeed, I think Nucifora's role is actually an experiment of sorts in such a process - the first tendrils.  When you think about it, the journey of players through the system in a small nation has to be a much more cohesive process to get the results required.  It's a logical process, especially when our model already does resemble the NZ one more than some of our local neighbours.

And why would the NZ model be frowned on either by any individual Provinces or the National game?  It proves itself to have worked exceptionally well.  It brings the bounty in.  It is related big time to the word 'success'. It improves players.......... AND .... it's undoubtedly improved indigenous coaches over the decades. It's a win-win lottery. In New Zealand I'm told any innovations of one team have to be shared around. It becomes a library of information tapped into by all for the good of all.

But yep, that's another discussion for further down the line.  Right now, Nucifora has a legitimate official role in dealing with Provinces.  Even now, that is a role designed to get the best out of all levels including Provinces.  I just hope that's a detailed and ambitious discussion he continues to have with them both in asking more from them but also in him being asked for the resourses to assist them doing so.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Honestly I don't see us reaching the point where the provinces don't have autonomy over their own tactics and style of rugby.

Unless Schmidt and Nucifera have the say as to who coaches the provinces it won't happen - can you imagine the IRFU telling Munster they had to replace Foley with a Kiwi coach?

We won't ever fully reach the NZ model, where everything is top down for the sole benefit of the national side.

Can you imagine IRFU telling any of the provinces that they had to sack all non-kiwi coaches?

Nucifora has a say in who coaches the Provinces - didn't he try and stop Leo's appointment in Leinster?

I hope Nucifora points out to Schmidt that his going to have to rethink his rugby philosophy and come up with a better gameplan for Ireland.

Exactly, we should sack the attempts at the intricate power plays and just hoof the ball and run after it in line with the style played at every other level of rugby in this country.

Nobody...nobody mention Carlos Spencer please!!!

Oops...I just did.

I think Power Plays should have Numbers recognised by World Rugby.  So that when they happen, the big screens can flash the number up there as the announcer does the American Schmaltz on it:

"That's a Five Eighty Seven!!!!  Touch Down, Centre Line.  Through the Posts!!!!!"

Big music to follow.

Come on!!!  It would be good for bums on seats biz!

Fook sake - Felix Jones has only gone and retired.

Very underrated player - looks like Zebede could get the Munster 15 jersey fulltime..

Or possibly Earls could move back there? I always thought he was best there.

That is a shock. Why has he retired?

Was fed up of fans slagging Joe's selections and style of play...

... and a neck injury

rodders wrote:Was fed up of fans slagging Joe's selections and style of play...

... and a neck injury

...the neck injury seems a bit of an excuse to me....

...though he's bang on for retiring for the other reason. Gotta stick to your principles.


God, sad to see him go though. I hated his running style but, then again, it was so distinctive when he was in full flow. Always played with a full desire to put in a full effort. Always looked like he wanted to make an impact on games. Just the spirit we need.

Wish him well into the future.

Thats incredibly disappointing news. Another quality player lost to injury before he could fulfil his potential- will be missed.

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:  
From what I can see, Payne was offered the Ireland 13 Jersey to get him over to Ulster. Schmidt is just keeping his promise.

Irish TImes wrote:Humphreys came to visit soon after, offering an opportunity to fill the 13 jersey for Ireland by November 2014. There was a catch; he would wear 15 for Ulster until that time came.

You know what they say don't believe what you read in the papers - the above is utter rubbish.
No such promise was ever made.

Payne arrived in 2011
Schmidt became Ireland manager in 2013.

It was only when Schmidt took over that he identified Payne as a 13 and it was only then he started playing 13 for Ulster

The Irish Times doesn't usually make stuff up. That reads like a very factual interview with Payne.  If it wasn't so, I  expect a letter to the Times at least refuting it if it was an error as it doesn't look too good.

Schmidt was hardly going to ignore the promises made to a player that had come halfway around the world, especially when his assistant (Kiss) was going to coach Ulster next season.

Its going to be interesting to see what happens in Ulster next season. Will the young tyros get an opportunity to play in the centre or will they be moved around to accommodate Payne there.

All good for Ulster fans though - they can blame the IRFU for insisting that Payne is played at 13.

They made this up - I know for a fact.
If you don't believe me your choice

very stupid from O'Leary

oh sorry wrong thread

Watching the provinces so far this season and comparing them to Ireland, one thing struck me is the licence the provinces have to offload the ball. 16 offloads in the Munster Ulster game. Probably more than Irelands world cup campaign.

Yep, and I don't care how different that standard is up to International ... you either can do it (offload) or you can't, and most of our professionals can.... if let.
It riles me to see Wales, England and Scotland do it and yet hear us Irish talk about not having enough players good enough at it and therefore it being too risky a venture.

Ooooh!!!!!  Twice 6N champs in succession can't pass a ball a little before or just on contact???  

I'm looking forward to Ireland play again though ...even was getting itchy watching the final rounds of the WC.  We have no choice, we have to give our players an easier way to play in order to cut down on the efforts per game to sustain a lead and to hopefully cut down on attritional injuries too.  Contact is needed but we do way too much of it.

I honestly don't think offloading (or a lack of it) is the issue. Although there aren't many who have the vision and the distribution to effectively offload, the few that are good at it will do it when the opportunity arises and if the support is there. But that is the point, we need to be in the positions for it to be effective in the first place. If we aren't getting front foot ball, or if we are sending static ball carriers into contact, then it is useless. If the support play isn't there, then it is useless. If we aren't playing at pace, then it is useless. All of these issues must be addressed and if they are, those who are effective at offloading will do it naturally to keep the ball alive.

This is why Zebo hasn't looked as effective as he should for Ireland. He has the vision, pace and playmaking ability but he doesn't get the space or support play that he needs. He can't just offload for the sake of it, if it isn't on then it isn't on. The same goes for Henshaw or any other player with the skills required.

Of course the gameplan/gameplay/strategy decides on how much and how effective offloading is going to be. If players don't have support players around them ready to take advantage then it's only a leap of faith.

I'm not talking about leap-of-faith offloading, I'm talking about a revised gameplan for Ireland to utilise a 'basic' element of top rugby, played by top sides, to gain advantages in the close to keep ball alive and use it offensively.

Okay but in order to do that we should continue to build on what we have got right - trying to starve the opposition of possession, win the territorial game, and dominate the set piece. That is why we have been competing at the top level over the past few years. Our weakness is obvious - we lack any sort of cutting edge or real threat in attack. If we can get that right then we will be a top 3 team. The problem is that it is probably the most difficult thing we can get right, as we currently do not have the players.

One way we can fix this in my opinion would be to start Henderson in either the second row or back row, bring in another effective ball carrier in the back row (could be Stander) and bring in a 12 who will break the gain line and offload effectively (McCloskey). Henshaw will play at 13. Bring Trimble back onto the wing if he can hit his previous form. Murray and Sexton are always going to start if fit so we know what we will get with them, and their style of play. We will have to build around that. If we wanted to play an expansive game I would bring Jackson in immediately for his sublime passing game and find another kicker.

Just watching Leinster now............. it's all very iffy and no as solid as you'd like....but.........................

the passing...long passing...comfortable.... sharp play..... we have plenty to build on provided the Provinces are directed to give it. First Province, then International.

Leinster showing us how it is done, yes. Noel Reid is impressive with ball in hand.

Cian Healy is woefully off form. McGrath definitely deserves the starting jersey for both Leinster and Ireland. Furlong looked very good in the first half, part of a very dominant scrum before Healy and Moore came on. Maybe he has pushed himself ahead of Moore at this stage?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Cian Healy is woefully off form. McGrath definitely deserves the starting jersey for both Leinster and Ireland. Furlong looked very good in the first half, part of a very dominant scrum before Healy and Moore came on. Maybe he has pushed himself ahead of Moore at this stage?

Yep McGrath should have been starting in the World Cup too, Healy hasn't got back to his best and McGrath is at least currently the better option. I said before aswell that Buckley can't be far away either.

Honestly rather than Furlong moving ahead of Moore, I think both should be in and maybe Mike Ross give way (if he doesn't retire) with the next tilt at the World Cup in mind. Both are promising players (Moore a bit unlucky with injuries) who need continued exposure at the highest level

I also think we need to get a lot more pace on the wings - Gerhard van den Heever (who I wouldn't rate that highly) did Andrew Trimble on the outside at the weekend to score a try. A lack of it was also noticeable from Denis Hurley for Gilroy's try. Andrew Conway (who could come into the international equasion now that he will probably be starting fullback for Munster) nearly got to him.

Joe was apoplectic with rage after that weekend!

"What's this??? Stop it, I tell yis!!! Ya hear me???!!! Stop it this instant!!! Yis are all going mad!!!! Don't be turning down those box kick options!!!!!!"

Sounds to me like Joe's just seen the curve - The denial has gone!

Just stage two starting Ruby It's all going according to World Domination schedule..... we should be bubbling over in 2043!!! Brendan 'The Zipper' Coogan has already decided to copy SBW and give his winners medal away on the night.... but first he's planning on being born first.

SecretFly wrote:Just stage two starting Ruby  It's all going according to World Domination schedule..... we should be bubbling over in 2043!!!   Brendan 'The Zipper' Coogan has already decided to copy SBW and give his winners medal away on the night.... but first he's planning on being born first.

What about the culture though?

We're selling it on eBay to pay off the national debt.

Sin é wrote:I also think we need to get a lot more pace on the wings

This. Simply put, Ireland need to get more pace on the wings. Dave Kearney did a great job up to the Argentina game (I would have selected him based on those performances) but was seriously found wanting for speed.

I am still amazed by the lack of game time Zebo got during the RWC.

Has Zebo enough speed either?

But I'm glad the chat is getting back to the basics............. conditioning to play games we want to/need to play.................. that's physicality of course (it's professional rugby)......but also tons of pace that can be lit and relit and relit over and over and over through an 80 minute game.

And not just the wings.... How many slow fatties are on either the Aussie or New Zealand team? The blueprints are there.

I was reading an article the other day for an Irish 15 of the early retired due to injury (increasing amount due to head injuries which is worrying) and I saw Dennis Leamy. He was the kind of player Ireland need now, big, strong, great skills and quick.

Whether Zebo has enough speed is questionable, but he was the fastest in the squad (I think).

I still can't figure out why Schmidt doesn't like him.

Plus Wallace..............

Do you think that Zebo has not got the speed Fly? Think he is pretty quick myself and possesses excellent skills as well as a huge left footed kick. Great left wing in my mind.

Schmidt is looking for guys who are constantly striving to improve, which is the NZ way - not guys who believe their own hype because they read were world class in the indo or joe.ie.

I think Schmidt does like Zebo - he just doesn't think he's currently one of the top 2 wingers in the country, and to be honest neither do I. He's probably the 3rd/4th best and second best fullback which is why he doesn't make the match day 23 and his place in the pecking order is a fair reflection on his ability.

Sin é wrote:I also think we need to get a lot more pace on the wings - Gerhard van den Heever (who I wouldn't rate that highly) did Andrew Trimble on the outside at the weekend to score a try. A lack of it was also noticeable from Denis Hurley for Gilroy's try. Andrew Conway (who could come into the international equasion now that he will probably be starting fullback for Munster) nearly got to him.

If we're looking for a speedster on the wing, then Healy in Connacht should also be considered. Didn't know Van de Heever is IQ

eirebilly wrote:Do you think that Zebo has not got the speed Fly? Think he is pretty quick myself and possesses excellent skills as well as a huge left footed kick. Great left wing in my mind.

All our wing potentials have good and bad points and I guess, that's being human and normal.  I think Zebo is one of the fittest we have.  Always looks fresh - you can see that the galloping doesn't require the same levels of recovery that other alternatives seem to need after a dose of fast and furious for five or ten minutes.

But none of our wings truly put the frighteners on the opposition, either in the gas levels they have from standstill (sorry but I hate Zebo's goosestep... a time waster and natural twitch that I'd simply beat out of him if I was a coach) or in the real evasive brain working there to make the pace do something special.

For now I can really only see Earls and Fitz have that unpredictability and pace to make it tell at the highest level.  Only problem there is that they can't even predict themselves what they're going to try to do often and therefore tend not to have the required support if the attempts actually come off.
Our wings are erratic and therefore not effective enough because there doesn't seem to be a real plan to tie in instinct into the gameplan.  
It has to be drilled, so that our wings expect to try things on and therefore the support players are tuned into it and ready (and allowed) to chase after in support.  Often times that hasn't happened because you just knew the side as a whole were commanded to keep defensive shape rather than chance too much.  So off go the fly-boys and the others stay at home to mind the house.

But all our players, nevermind our wings, could do with more 80 minute full-on pace - and that comes from practice and execution.  The gameplans themselves determine the conditioning of the players.  I liked this weekend.  Some will say defence suffered to emphasise attack.  I say 'so what?'  Yes, defence will suffer if you try to remain on the offensive.  But right now, at International, our balance is usually too much on the side of defence.  So we have to charge on the Provinces to drive through all games - we have to play a game at pace so that instincts and conditioning rise year upon year to meet the challenge.  Correct our fast game errors/mistakes at Provincial level.
It truly is the only way.  You will not do it by waiting patiently for the 'special' once in a generation players to arrive.  Special players doing it for themselves is no design on taking on the world.

Sin é wrote:I also think we need to get a lot more pace on the wings - Gerhard van den Heever (who I wouldn't rate that highly) did Andrew Trimble on the outside at the weekend to score a try.

Trimble injured his hamstring, he's not fully fit.

Yet again I seriously do not see how selecting quicker players on the wing is going to improve anything just yet. They still need space to work with and no matter who we select, whether it is Zebo or Gilroy they probably won't score many tries. If anything we need big physical wingers who can break the gain line through sheer aggression and power. The only winger who fits that mould is Andrew Trimble. The other important attribute needed for Irish wingers is their ability under the high ball. That is our main attacking weapon at the minute.

I would like to see wingers with more pace and skill at some stage in the future and I do think the likes of Dave Kearney are not threatening enough there, but the reality is that it won't make much difference unless they can get more space. All of the current options will look better with more space, whether that is Zebo or Kearney.