Collecting data about premiership players, any interest?

by HammerofThunor Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:14 pm

Original post:

Post week 2:

Post week 3:

Post week 4:

Post Europe Round 2:

Post week 5:

by BamBam Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:16 pm

I'd be interested

Will have a think if there's anything specific, thanks Hammer

by **Rugby Fan** Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:53 pm

Yes, interested here too.

by HammerofThunor Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:27 pm

Corrections welcomed.

by HammerofThunor Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:27 pm

I've got all the squads uploaded now (from the club websites). Clearly there differences in what is classed as first team but that'll get sorted as games are played. I'll add anyone who plays who isn't listed as of yet. I've moved Sisi to Irish as he's on a season loan and on both websites.

Bath:

Exeter:

Gloucester:

Harlequins:

Leicester:

London Irish:

Newcastle:

Northampton:

Sale:

Saracens:

Wasps:

Worcester:

by Margin_Walker Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:06 am

Had a look at the LI squad there. On first glance:

Cox has retired, Parr has gone to Leicester
Noakes is EQ through grandparent/s
Believe Palframan, Halavatau, Steele, Sheriff and Fenby are all EQ on residency

by HammerofThunor Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:28 am

Cheers. I've updated the picture above for Irish. I haven't bothered updating the Leicester one.

I've looked into all of them and except for Fenby agree. It looks like Fenby joined you in 2013 and was back in Wales before then so he needs another year.

Edit: does anybody know of a website that consistently puts up the time players were replaced? The BBC and Premiership websites don't. I thought it would be better to track by minute rather than just games.

by Margin_Walker Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:21 am

Yeah, you're right on Fenby, unless he has an English granny stashed away somewhere.

On the website front, espn scrum is the only one I know of and use for this sort of thing (have got too much time on my hands and keep stats for LI for metres gained, tackle %, pens conceded etc). They've recently changed their interface, which frustratingly makes it much harder to navigate round their site and find past games, but it still just about does the job. Main website:
http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/

Screen you need for each game
http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/match?gameId=267729&league=267979

If you take the url above and lift the first 6 digit game id (267729 in this case) and paste it into url below, you get the old game format which I find is more concise and easier to read.

http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/match/267729.html

by beshocked Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:18 am

Jared Saunders for Saracens is technically English qualified as he's been in England since 2010.
I wouldn't call him English but that's the way it is.

Quite an odd situation at Saracens because you have two players more English in my opinion than quite a few members of the squad who aren't EQ because they represent another country obviously - Chris Wyles and Jim Hamilton. Both have played most of their club rugby in England too.

Rest looks pretty accurate IMO.

Though I noticed you don't have the American prop - Titi Lamositele

Missing some academy too I believe.

by HammerofThunor Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:26 am

Cheers Beshocked. Don't care about the nebulous idea of 'English', EQ is nice and simple. Also, the Saracens website was the best one to work with for this.

by beshocked Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:32 am

Actually sorry on reflection your list is inaccurate sorry.

The EQ ratio gets worse for Saracens as you missed at Michael Rhodes. Baden Kerr. Vunisa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saracens_F.C.

Strangely enough the wiki page is more accurate.

Sarries website is woefully out of date.

Conlon is out on loan to LW I believe.

by BamBam Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:40 am

Just had a quick flick through .. first thoughts are that Wasps seem to have no recent u20s types, around the 18-22 age group, which is a bit surprising as I've always thought of them as having a decent academy!

Great work on this Hammer, will definitely be flicking back to this

by HammerofThunor Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:51 am

What I'll do is update for players when they play in a game. Most squads have additional players, be they academy or loans or whatever. I'm not too interested in the squad available. More the ones that's actually get game time.

Currently putting the numbers in for the first few games. I'll give a brief update once the first two weeks are done (if I get them done before the weekend) with the sort of stuff I can get as things stand. Won't mean much as players are being rested from the world cup, etc but it'll give a flavour.

Margin_walker, you're right the old scheme is better. Unfortunately subbing the number in doesn't appear to work for me so I'll use the old one. The only thing that's worse is that it doesn't split the subs into team on the commentary but I generally know who's on which team and can find out easily for the ones I'm not sure about.

EDIT: Figured out what I was doing wrong. Can access the old format

by **LondonTiger** Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:04 am

For Leicester:

Betham - Australian
DeChaves - EQP via Mother
Loamanu - Japanese international
McCaffrey, O'Connor, Williams (M) - EQP via Grandparents/Parents

Also Brugnara and Pasquali currently count as EQP via residence - however both will be looking to play for Italy.

I understand that Matt Parr is not currently registered for us with PRL and is on a coaching contract. In a similar vein we have a handfull of players on Development contracts and also not registered with PRL to play in the AP.

Academy lad Ben White came on for 60 seconds this weekend at SH.

by HammerofThunor Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:15 am

Thanks also, LT. I got Mike Williams and de Chaves. Updated for McCaffrey and O'Connor. Also, updated Brugnara and Pasquale as EQ (I can update again when they play for Italy). I'll leave Parr in, if he ends up not playing at all he can get striped out. I'm also not worrying about 'nationality' at the moment so Bethan is down as being born in New Zealand, even though he played for Australia. Same with Loamanu.

I plan on adding in the international games for at least the English players. Not sure if I'll do it for all the others. I'll try but bound to miss some (too many internationals these days Wink

)

by Bathman_in_London Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:56 am

Of the Bath players not born in England, Roko and Williams are EQP.

by HammerofThunor Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:38 am

Yeah, got both of them, cheers. Pretty sure the rest either have caps or haven't been there long enough. Wasn't sure about Houston but he's got Australia A caps.

by HammerofThunor Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:11 pm

Ok, I've got the first two weeks done. Here's how we stand:

Edit: For clarification, this is all about the number of minutes played by an EQ player out of the max possible. So the 199 players below might not be 65.9% of the players involved, but they cover 65.9% of the 160 minutes played so far.

Total fraction of game time for EQ players = 65.9% (199 players)
By club:
Bath - 82.2%
Exeter - 60.5%
Gloucester - 62.2%
Harlequins - 78.2%
Leicester - 70.6%
London Irish - 60.4%
Newcastle - 49.5%
Northampton - 86.3%
Sale - 57.9%
Saracens - 74.6%
Wasps - 64.3%
Worcester - 44.5%

By position:

Wing/Full Back - 83.5%
Centre - 62.3%
Fly Half - 51.4%
Scrum Half - 60.4%
Hooker - 76.8%
Prop - 61.3%
Lock - 71.4%
Back Row - 55.1%

So this shows, in terms of game time we have at least the equivalent of 6 teams that are 100% EQ in every position.

by HammerofThunor Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:02 pm

by **LondonTiger** Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:20 pm

Shame that Ben White's short stay (about 0.01% I think) is insufficient to get U20s on the graph.

by Guest Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:21 pm

Nice work Hammer, cheers.

Just a couple of small points for Leicester. Sadly Ayerza isn't EQ and I'd expect Brugnara to be further along his development at 115 years old.

by HammerofThunor Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:16 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Shame that Ben White's short stay (about 0.01% I think) is insufficient to get U20s on the graph.

The ages are equal to or less. If you look really closely you can see someone on the <20 bit.

Fuzzy, I've updated Brugnara's DOB but hadn't spotted Ayerza. Cheers.

by HammerofThunor Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:36 pm

On Ben White, he's a Staffordshire lad so he's on my favoured list (along with Kieran Brookes and Dan Robson) even if he did go to a fancy pants school.

by yappysnap Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:20 pm

Fair play to him, he looked like one of the Colts who'd been let on the pitch. I'd have been crapping it myself.

by HammerofThunor Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:45 pm

I've been playing with a summary page, which should update automatically once the data is in. I can do a weekly update (or a least once I've bothered updating it).

Edit: These players recorded below are only those that have had some involvement so far. So, for example, Bath have used 25 players in the last two games, 20 of which are EQ. Replacements need to have got on the pitch to be counted.

Collecting data about premiership players, any interest? Screen%252520Shot%2525202015-10-29%252520at%25252019.39.50

Collecting data about premiership players, any interest? Screen%252520Shot%2525202015-10-29%252520at%25252019.39.50

by Poorfour Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:58 am

For Quins, Ben Botica joined us for the 2012 season and hasn't played for NZ at a level that would fix his allegiance, so he is now an EQP on residency.

Interesting that back row is where EQPs are the most under-represented after fly halves.

by lostinwales Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:10 am

Interesting that the big spenders (!) have been using the highest proportion of EQ players. Might be linked to the RWC hangover

by Bathman_in_London Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:30 am

Us cheats have a EQP policy, the idea being mostly English with a couple of high quality foreign players too. So there are likely to be c.20 EQP in match day squads.

This data is only for a few games, but if at the end of the season the decision making positions are still those with the lowest EQP %'s, then that can't be good long term.

by lostinwales Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:34 am

Bathman_in_London wrote:Us cheats have a EQP policy, the idea being mostly English with a couple of high quality foreign players too. So there are likely to be c.20 EQP in match day squads.

This data is only for a few games, but if at the end of the season the decision making positions are still those with the lowest EQP %'s, then that can't be good long term.

We certainly do have to wait to see how the numbers develop before jumping to too many conclusions, and I don't think the correlation between EQP % and quality is going to be particularly strong. After all, based on those numbers Hooker should not be a problem.

by Geordie Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:56 am

We do have a worryingly high NEQ list at the moment.

by Poorfour Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:25 am

lostinwales wrote:Interesting that the big spenders (!) have been using the highest proportion of EQ players. Might be linked to the RWC hangover

At a guess, the EQP proportions correlate pretty well with finishing position in the table over the last few years. It looks like the key is to grow (or poach) decent English talent and supplement it with strong overseas players, whereas the weaker clubs are less able to develop (or keep) EQPs so rely more on foreign squad players.

It does give a bit of a lie to the Saffacens jibes - for all their perceived and real faults (and the godawful songs count as both), they have done a lot to develop English players through their academy.

by HammerofThunor Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:00 pm

Poorfour wrote:For Quins, Ben Botica joined us for the 2012 season and hasn't played for NZ at a level that would fix his allegiance, so he is now an EQP on residency.

Interesting that back row is where EQPs are the most under-represented after fly halves.

I'll update when I get home.

Another thing on EQ players, the clubs get money for having them. Therefore they're 'worth' more than a player of the same standard who is NEQ.

by Poorfour Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:17 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Poorfour wrote:For Quins, Ben Botica joined us for the 2012 season and hasn't played for NZ at a level that would fix his allegiance, so he is now an EQP on residency.

Interesting that back row is where EQPs are the most under-represented after fly halves.

I'll update when I get home.

Another thing on EQ players, the clubs get money for having them. Therefore they're 'worth' more than a player of the same standard who is NEQ.

Not quite - they get money for maintaining a certain proportion of EQPs in the playing squad over the course of the season. (It led to a very odd game once where Falcons fielded a largely academy side against Quins because they needed to get their EQP% up to threshold more than they needed the points - but I think this only happened once). So beyond a certain point the additional value diminishes quite a bit. You don't need to have as many EQPs as Quins, Saints, Bath or Sarries to get the extra cash.

by HammerofThunor Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:04 pm

True

I've updated Botica and brought up a list of the EQ back row that have featured so far.

Collecting data about premiership players, any interest? Screen%252520Shot%2525202015-10-30%252520at%25252018.02.00

Collecting data about premiership players, any interest? Screen%252520Shot%2525202015-10-30%252520at%25252018.02.00

by HammerofThunor Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:01 pm

Updated the first post with this weeks data.

by HammerofThunor Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:58 pm

Updated for week 4.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:14 pm

Apologies for tardiness, but following are Exeter EQP corrections:

Don Armand (Baxter said so last week)
Phill Dollman (Gatland's an idiot)
Tom Hendrickson (Half Cornish, raised in Cornwall)
Shaun Malton (parentage)
Gareth Steenson (Kidney, EOS, Schmidt, etc are idiots)
Ben White (serial residency qualifier)

by Guest Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:22 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Apologies for tardiness, but following are Exeter EQP corrections:

Don Armand (Baxter said so last week)
Phill Dollman (Gatland's an idiot)
Tom Hendrickson (Half Cornish, raised in Cornwall)
Shaun Malton (parentage)
Gareth Steenson (Kidney, EOS, Schmidt, etc are idiots)
Ben White (serial residency qualifier)

Hmmm... born in Northern Ireland, but qualifies for England through residency.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Mon Nov 09, 2015 9:25 pm

Yup,
Steeno, a proud Irishman who was in the crowd at the Millenium cheering on his compatriots at RWC, wouldn't turn out for England in a month of Sundays, is EQP.

Why the fvck ireland didn't look at him at A level before Sexton came through, or since, is incomprehensible (Andress was capped in the A team when he was playing alongside Steeno at Exeter).. He's the second best Irish flyhalf currently playing.

by Guest Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:01 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Yup,
Steeno, a proud Irishman who was in the crowd at the Millenium cheering on his compatriots at RWC, wouldn't turn out for England in a month of Sundays, is EQP.

Why the fvck ireland didn't look at him at A level before Sexton came through, or since, is incomprehensible (Andress was capped in the A team when he was playing alongside Steeno at Exeter).. He's the second best Irish flyhalf currently playing.

He is good, but I think you're underrating the talent of Paddy Jackson. You wouldn't be the first. The problem for Steenson was getting game time, and sometimes I think it's best that players move to the mainland, or further, to develop their game. We do let some slip through the net. Tommy Seymour would be one, but that's going to happen when a few players are competing for the same position. I wish them all every success, and who knows what the future will bring for them, as far as representing their country go?

I won't say any more on this as I don't want to take anything from this thread.

A very good thread, Hammer. Even though it doesn't relate to the team or league I follow, I find it very interesting.

by HammerofThunor Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:19 pm

Cheers, WL Overate. Exeter gone up to 77.8% EQ in the squad and 78.8% EQ gametime so far. Not going to update the stuff up to now.

Munchkin, well I've done it before when I get frustrated about the same old cliches being banded about so this time I thought I'd do it a little more openly.

by HammerofThunor Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:42 pm

Updated the first post for the European games. A lot more English players being played (especially in the Challenge Cup teams). The time per game is a bit off due to the Bath postponement, but can't be bothered to fix it.

As usual, ask if you want anything specific.

by HammerofThunor Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:45 pm

Updated for 5th week of the League

by nathan Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:50 pm

by Tiger/Chief Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:29 pm

Just a small point but Don Armand is EQ

by Tiger/Chief Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:31 pm

As is Gareth Steenson on residency grounds

by HammerofThunor Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:15 pm

Yeah, they've been updated in the numbers, I just haven't posted a screen grab.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:23 am

A guy with a regular spot in the Tigers Program seemed to publish some of these numbers recently - covering rounds 1 and 2.

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:50 am

Cor blimey, I hope not. They're not exactly well verified (although they do have some basis in fact which is a bonus over main stream media Smile

)

I know Fuzzy Dunlop reposted them somewhere (I tried PMing back but you appear to have the setting turned off, it was fine.)

Had a few family issues recently so haven't had the motivation to update it. Will try to bring it up-to-date over the next week.

by Guest Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:52 pm

Ok Hammer, cheers. Tbh I didn't even realise there was an option to block PMs.

I've never really cared where a player was born or whether they're EQP, but I find these stats really interesting to look at. If there's anything that can be done to help you gather the data feel free to ask.

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