Wasted talent

Simple really. You can just vote, or ask me (with justification) to add names.

What defines a waste? I wouldn't say Buzz wasted his talent because injury cut short his career.

But if you want to include injury shortened careers then Simon Geoghegan would be first on the list.

Glas - justify the King being on the list! I know he had a short career at international level by modern standards - but he achieved everything in the game, including a victorious Lions Tour in NZ where he was arguably the difference between the two sides.

Wasted Talent?

"But if you want to include injury shortened careers then Simon Geoghegan would be first on the list."

And that the Irish team at the time didnt know how to use him properly...ie give him the ball

ML. King John retired very early. There was no waste in what he achieved, but what might he have achieved had he carried on? I knew putting him in was controversial.

Caucau

Are we writing our eulogies for Cipriani already? He's younger than me, like.

Simon Taylor's a good call though!

Neil Francis - even he himself admits he was a lazy lump. Very talented though.

How is Simon Taylor a good call when he's been blighted by injury? When he was fit he certainly didn't waste his talent.

That might just be me looking at it in the way as wasted talent as someone who is fully fit but hasn't done themselves justice. I can't really say that someone who's injured is a wasted talent, when it comes down to it that's just unlucky.

rugbydreamer wrote:How is Simon Taylor a good call when he's been blighted by injury? When he was fit he certainly didn't waste his talent.

That might just be me looking at it in the way as wasted talent as someone who is fully fit but hasn't done themselves justice. I can't really say that someone who's injured is a wasted talent, when it comes down to it that's just unlucky.

Taylor could have been a top player. He can't help his injuries, but it he didn't reach his potential as a result. Hence his talent was to an extent wasted.

Hydroxymoron wrote:Are we writing our eulogies for Cipriani already? He's younger than me, like.

And I have to say your career has been nothing but a stirring disappointment to me

Has he really, dreamer? I hadn't been watching with a beady eye. All I'd known was between Paris and Bath in latter years he's not made a mark.

I'm sitting comfortable, but I'm otherwise corrected.

I know, greybeard! That's what makes such depressing reading!



(A laugh lost in time...)

Risca Rev wrote:Caucau

+1. The most natural talent I've ever seen in a player but only reached a fraction of his true potential.

Hydroxy - the way I've viewed Taylor's career is that before both of his serious injuries he had a huge amount of talent and potential. He has never been the same player since returning from injury. That's why he's not been as big a stand out player in Paris and at Bath as he was before. I still don't think that someone being injured leads to them being a wasted talent, when it's something outside of their control.

Glas - I do understand why you've put players like him in, just personally that's not how I view the whole term 'wasted talent'

Yeah im afraid heads above everyone is Caucau....should have gone down as a rugby legend for the right reasons not for being the biggest waste of talent ever.....

rugbydreamer wrote:Hydroxy - the way I've viewed Taylor's career is that before both of his serious injuries he had a huge amount of talent and potential. He has never been the same player since returning from injury. That's why he's not been as big a stand out player in Paris and at Bath as he was before. I still don't think that someone being injured leads to them being a wasted talent, when it's something outside of their control.

That's a good interpretation. There are more tabloid-friendly characters who'd match your definition, and I think that almost-'tragedy' seems more noteworthy than the rake of injuries that strike players throughout a career. To approach with broad strokes, I'd say both category of player were wasted, but in some cases the waste may have been smartly avoided.

I didn't track Taylor's injuries at all though, so I was (incorrectly) judging him by somewhat unfair standards. My bad. Now I've got the 4-1-1, I know he's had c. 60 caps for Scotland, and he and I share a birthday. So not only were we both wasted talents...

Can't wait to see what Stag says when he sees Caucau mentioned.

If you have Barry John in there, then maybe Mark Ella deserves a shout?

I'll defer to Penfro or some of the elders on Ella. He's a legend in Llanelli, held up as one of the best fly halfs to grace Stradey. Mind you so is Gary Pierce.

MBTGOG wrote:

If you have Barry John in there, then maybe Mark Ella deserves a shout?

If Barry John is there - who CAN'T be on there?

Can we add Jonny Wilkinson (because of his injuries) and Dan Carter for having a poor season whilst on sabbatical in Europe?

Look ML, Barry John has 12% of the vote, whilst Cipriani has 0%. I think the figures speak for themselves.

George Hook. Could have taken Ireland to a RWC Final.

In a bus. Never passed his HGV test. Awful shame. For all of us.


From this list, it has to be Geoghan for me. Injury and playing in the wrong era and in a team with the wrong tactics, to fully utilise his talents. One of the most naturally talented wingers Ive ever seen.

Mark Ella was a genius. I first saw him when he came over with the Australian schoolboys in the 1970s (both his brothers were in the team too). It was evident then that he was very very special, and he scored a try against each of the home nations.

He also scored a try against each nation in Australia's Grand Slam tour of '84 after which he retired age 25.

I dont know why he retired so early - but there were rumblings about the Australian selectors at the time stripping him of the captaincy for the UK tour for not altogether legitimate reasons.

Glas a du wrote:Look ML, Barry John has 12% of the vote, whilst Cipriani has 0%. I think the figures speak for themselves.

I am only joking Glas - calm down!

I am perfectly calm ta ML. I only have a vague memory of Ella. We were allowed to watch Llanelli beat Australia in the mid 80's. The talk was all of the Ella brothers. Our headmaster used the game as an excuse to give us a bit of Australian history, you know the Englishmen went over and did to the aboriginies exactly what they did to us, that sort of thing. My mates dad was coaching Llanelli at the time. Our teacher was from Pontyberem. If we were not taught to be good Scarlets at home, he taught us that at least at school.

Glas a du wrote:................. I only have a vague memory of Ella. We were allowed to watch Llanelli beat Australia in the mid 80's. The talk was all of the Ella brothers. ............................

Read his Wikipedia write up - he was every bit as good as that................ and then some. We talk about players re-writing the rules for a position all too often, but he really did do it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Ella

Over the years you could talk of wasted talent in many ways.Wasted Mark Ella,Barry John they were greats who retired early,hardly wasted.Chris Laidlaw at the height of his game[he was better than Gareth Edwards in my opinion] gave the game away.Stan Meads rated by many better than brother Colin,retired to be a farmer.George Nepia,unable to tour SA went league became legend.Bev Risman went league became legend.In amateur days,Rugby was a sport not a way of live.For many that meant earning a living outside the game.Players carreers cut short through injury or death like Thom Evans or Nicky Allen a shame but not wasted.If you mean really wasted,by stupid off field antics like Caucau,Henson,Cipriani.Then yes,but they have`nt retired and may yet become great.Players like Toeva or Tait who were thrown into early,have yet to adapt to a fixed position.Utility so often becomes futility,where a player is chucked in as a stop gap.fails and is dumped Cipriani, Tait are classic examples.As far as test Rugby goes a NZ player who goes abroad is a waste of talent,Jared Payne as an example.

Personally, I think that a player of great talent who retires early for grounds that are not entirelly clear, in other words without being forced to by injury or compelling personal circumstances are to an extent wasting that talent. The better they were when they played, the greater the waste.

Mind you, that raises another question. Would John and Ella be held in such high regard if they would have played on for 5 or more years and lost form?

David Kirk quit rugby immediately after the 1987 RWC to become a Rhodes Scholar.
He was 26 yrs old.
Waste of talent?

I don't know, what's a Rhodes Scholar?

Glas a du wrote:I don't know, what's a Rhodes Scholar?

A 2-3 year scholarship to Oxford University set up by Cecil Rhodes (Remember Rhodhesia!) for commonwealth and USA academic over achievers!

Well that is slightly different to Barry John saying he didn't like the pressure to perform, don't you think? Mind you, perhaps if he'd stayed on they might have won again in '91.

Laidlaw became a Rhodes scholar too.

Glas a du wrote:Well that is slightly different to Barry John saying he didn't like the pressure to perform, don't you think? Mind you, perhaps if he'd stayed on they might have won again in '91.

I wish.

Caucau. Every single time.

Got to be Caucau.The guy could have led Fiji to a very decent showing in the WC.But he wasted his talent.

Well you only have to look at any player who went North. Jonathon Davies should have been something special in Union but he went to League and became something special in league. I voted for Barry John because he retired at something like the peak of his power. on the basis of who has thrown away their gifts I would probably say Henson but I think he has been unlucky as well as extremely misguided.

I'm amazed people vote for Barry John. Played at top level for years. Yes retired early but very much used his talents.

Well Stag that is one of the things that makes this world such an interesting place...we all have different opinions.

Yes he used his talents and won a Lions series etc but the very fact he retired young means that he still had a lot more to give...assuming he still had talent and as he had retired he didn't use it that is the very definition of wasting talent.

So people actually think that Barry John has wasted his god given talents more than someone like Caucau?

Stag, maybe not more, but differently. He was only 27 when he retired and with no apparent injury concern. At the very least he could have ruled the roost for another three years.

For Caucau, it's not too late.

Barry John lost out on about 3 years. Caucau has essentially wasted a decade.

How can anyone say Barry John be in there, lol. Anyone called the "king" during their career and having women curtsy when u walk passed them in the street hasnt wasted their talent.

Henson has over 30 wales caps and is a capped british lion, so he certainly hasnt wasted his talent, as for his time off, well he was injured for most of it.

I'm not sure how much talent Danny Cipriani had, apart from shagging kelly brooks he hasnt done anything yet.

Andrew Gibbs is probably the most disappointing case ive ever seen so far in my lifetime from a wales perspective. Though Marcus Thomas might be a close second, what the hell happened there

I'll go for Leigh Davies off the list as he peed his career against the wall and didnt make the transition from amerturism to profesisonalism.

You could add Neil Boobyer to that list to, anyone who bets on his own team to lose a game and tells the press is a bit of a plank...

Was he that good anyway, Stag?

Glas a du wrote:Was he that good anyway, Stag?

IMO up until 2004 yes. He went from being the worlds best winger to being a walking advert for McDonalds playing in second tier rugby.

Risca Rev wrote:Caucau

Totally agree on this one. Such a superb runner with the ball, effortless. Just he liked the booze & fags more

Interesting thread, and I entirely agree with the inclusion of the likes of Barry John and Ella as players who wasted their talent by giving the game away early (as with George Best in football - great player for 7 or 8 years, but should have had another 4 or 5 years at teh top if he'd been a little more dedicated).

I wouldn't include players whose careers were seriously curtailed by injury as 'wasted talent, more unfulfilled potential - another name for that list would be Trevor Woodman - yes, he was a RWC winner, but he may well still ahve been England's first choice loosehead had injuries not intervened

Hens on and Caucau are definitely well up the list of really wasted talent - naturally gifted players but without the dedication to the game to make the most of their career. Cipriani falls into the same bracket, but is still just about young enough to turn things around IF someone gets in his head and straightens his attitude out.

I'll confess, my initial instinct was Cipriani, because unlike many of the others who were blighted by injury, he's throwing away his career in its infancy by being a plonker. Obviously unlike many of the others he still has plenty time to make it right, but he's losing crucial development years right now.

On the point of Caucau, Toulouse seem to have gotten rid of some of that extra weight, still an awful lot left though, but I think we'll see him at the World Cup and maybe, just maybe, get one or two of his moments of magic.

I hope so Munsty. He was incredible in 2003. I don't think I've seen a player like that since.