Aviva Premiership - Round 6

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Table

Team	Played	--Won--	-Drawn-	---BP---	Points
Saracens	5	5	0	2	22
Exeter	5	4	0	3	19
Leicester	5	4	0	0	16
Harlequins	5	3	0	3	15
Wasps	5	3	0	2	14
Northampton	5	2	0	4	12
Sale Sharks	5	2	1	2	12
Bath	5	2	0	2	10
Worcester	5	2	0	2	10
Gloucester	5	2	0	1	9
Newcastle	5	0	1	0	2
London Irish	5	0	0	0	0

Fixtures:


Fri 4th Dec

19:45 Gloucester Rugby  v   Sale Sharks BT Sport
Both sides will not have been happy with their performances last week in games that failed to rise above the awful conditions. Gloucester's experiment of Twelvetrees at 10 and hook at 12 failed rather conspicuously as neither managed to add any control. Gloucester will be hoping for dry conditions in which their quick backs are more likely to thrive. Not for the first time this season, Danny Cipriani was unsuccessful with a "win-the-game" kick. After his break during the Challenge Cup matches he looked rusty, and with the court appearance hanging over him he will need to cast away all extraneous emotions and perform if Sale are to sneak anything from this game. Gloucester should win and overtake their visitors in the table, but it is hard to see either team threatening the top half of the table.


Sat 5th Dec

15:00 Harlequins  v   London Irish
Having secured a TBP at Sandy Park, Quins will be bemoaning their ill-discipline (plus attempts to run the clock down at the end of the first half) that allowed Exeter to sneak the win. Still, if you had offered them 2 points before they started their journey west they would probably have bitten your hand off. London Irish are the only team still pointless in the table, but can keep tyheir hopes up by looking at just how hard their opening fixtures have been. all five of their opponents so far finished in the top half of the table last season, and all bar Bath are their again. The trip to the Stoop continues the trend of playing form teams. Certainly Irish have no being playing as poorly as the table would suggest and, despite Quins being clear favourites, they are capable of getting something from this game.

15:00 Worcester Warriors  v   Leicester Tigers
Along with visitors Bath, Leicester did well to rise above the conditions last week and produce a game full of ambition and running - but perhaps not finishing. With Bell and Youngs both kicking far too long with the wind behind, Bath dominated territory and possession in the first half. However tigers showed real grit to hold them at bay, repeated this when down to 14 men in the second half and pulled away at the end. While the influence of Mauger can be seen in how Tigers are trying to play, the physicality with which tigers hit every tackle, ruck and maul was quintessential Cockers. They will need all that grit and fire for the visit to Sixways to face a Worcester side that are more than the sum of their parts. Wuss will be disappointed and even shocked by the score line last week. They did not play as poorly as a casual look at the score would suggest. DOC needs to avoid winding the ref up though. There were a number of 50/50 calls that went the Sarries way after some rather pointless in the refs face behaviour.


15:15 Bath Rugby  v   Northampton Saints BT Sport
The top two in last years regular season have struggled for form and consistency in the league so far, both with just two wins from five games. It is hard to decide who will be more confident going into this match. Bath played some excellent rugby in absolutely dire conditions at the weekend, but allowed Leicester's physicality to seize the day. Saints in conditions almost as bad featured in perhaps the worst match of the season - but dominated their opponent up front. Bath struggled at the lineout last week, but went toe-to-toe  at scrum time with the Leicester 8, almost gaining parity. they will need to raise their game further though for the visit of Saints beast of a scrum. I fell thi smatch could be decided by the conditions. If dry and still Bath should be able to avoid arm wrestle and seize the win. Wet and heavy and Saints abrasiveness and grunbt should dominate. Both sides will not wish to lose and slide down the table, but both sides will have their eyes on potentially tricky European matches.

17:30 Wasps  v   Exeter Chiefs BT Sport
Two teams that love to run the ball. Also two teams that have shown admirable defence this season at times, Wasps most notably in Europe, Chiefs for Leicester's visit. I am fascinated to see how this match will pan out. On paper Wasps look stronger, but Exeter have continued to make a mockery of such assertions. Battle of the back rows could be seismic.


Sun 6th Dec

15:00 Newcastle Falcons  v   Saracens BT Sport
It will be a shock if Saracens fail to win this game. Falcons should not be written off though. With one eye on Europe the defending champions will continue to rotate their players. Falcons came close to beating Sarries last season in Barnet with an all action attacking game - same again could make things interesting - but they have to be precise. Lose possession when in attack and they will see just how precisely Sarries counter attack.

If as expected the AP is ringfenced you probably will be ale to

Do you think the ringfencing is a cert?

How many teams?

Don't think it is guaranteed. But, the expression about where there is smoke there is fire might apply here. There is a lot of noise. Hopefully 14 teams, but with an unbalanced schedule so we don't add matches.

Wilson is a very good player, certainly one of our best. He's a hard carrying 6, good at most things but more powerful than Robshaw. In a better team he'd shine ala Brookes(who I don't rate too highly).

doctor_grey wrote:Don't think it is guaranteed.  But, the expression about where there is smoke there is fire might apply here.  There is a lot of noise.  Hopefully 14 teams, but with an unbalanced schedule so we don't add matches.  

14 teams, no Anglo/Welsh Cup.

So:
Saracens
Bath
Leicester
Saints
Gloucester
Exeter
L.Irish
Sale
Falcons
Leeds
Bristol
Worcester
Quins
Wasps
Gloucester

Any other teams putting their name in the hat?

GeordieFalcon wrote:So:
Saracens
Bath
Leicester
Saints
Gloucester
Exeter
L.Irish
Sale
Falcons
Leeds
Bristol
Worcester
Quins
Wasps
Gloucester

Any other teams putting their name in the hat?

Gloucester twice?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ironically LT

I was making it quite clear that our lock Sean Robinson was very good on Sunday but is not ever going to be an England player...Deano makes a call

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/newcastle-falcons-george-mcguigan-should-10559747

Asked if he would like to see the hooker in England’s second-string Saxons squad, Richards said: “I would like to see him play for the full England team.

“I don’t think Jamie George was any better than he was on Sunday, and he has been capped by England.

“In my humble opinion George is coming on leaps and bounds, and deserves some sort of recognition.”

Asked which of his Newcastle side he believes are worthy of Jones’ attention, Richards added: “There are loads of our boys who could have a serious claim.

“George, for starters, I thought, played incredibly well against Saracens.

“Mark Wilson and Will Welch too, then Sean Robinson showed again why we rate him so highly.

“He ran the lineouts really well and caused them problems, and Micky Young was another who showed up well.

“There are a lot of good boys here, and a lot who are yet to come through.”

Sorry Dean, I believe he's a very good club player better than Botha, but no more. And as for Micky Young?? No No No

With all those players playing so well, it's no wonder Falcons are doing great this year. Oh wait...

He can't really have been serious about Micky Young can he? Not a bad player, but it would take at least half a dozen injuries to England's SHs before he got a look-in at the Saxons team?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:In a better team he'd shine ala Brookes(who I don't rate too highly).

Why not? Our scrum has ripped apart every team since he joined and he's had a number of MOTM or close performances.

All he did on Sunday was kick....in fact all he's done this season is....KICK so we really don't know how good he is.

The irony is we have some very good players who in other set ups would be getting talked about regularly....there just seems to be something totally rotten with the coaching, tactics here etc...

I thought Mickey Young has asked everyone to call him Michael now. Doesn't help his cause if his coach can't remember to do so.

Scottrf wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:In a better team he'd shine ala Brookes(who I don't rate too highly).

Why not? Our scrum has ripped apart every team since he joined and he's had a number of MOTM or close performances.

It's hard to forget 2 seasons of mediocrity from Brookes and I think he flatters somewhat in a very good pack. We got dismantled by every scrum last season with Brookes usually the TH. That same scrum with Jon Welsh at TH has held its own or got on top this season, actually dominating the Saints at Franklins.

You don't become an outstanding TH overnight and Brookes is well short there. Let's be honest, even Mafu'u looked like a top prop in that Saints unit and he's not a good prop.

Jon Welsh has been outstanding. Best signing I think so far.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ironically LT

I was making it quite clear that our lock Sean Robinson was very good on Sunday but is not ever going to be an England player...Deano makes a call

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/newcastle-falcons-george-mcguigan-should-10559747

Asked if he would like to see the hooker in England’s second-string Saxons squad, Richards said: “I would like to see him play for the full England team.

“I don’t think Jamie George was any better than he was on Sunday, and he has been capped by England.

“In my humble opinion George is coming on leaps and bounds, and deserves some sort of recognition.”

Asked which of his Newcastle side he believes are worthy of Jones’ attention, Richards added: “There are loads of our boys who could have a serious claim.

“George, for starters, I thought, played incredibly well against Saracens.

“Mark Wilson and Will Welch too, then Sean Robinson showed again why we rate him so highly.

“He ran the lineouts really well and caused them problems, and Micky Young was another who showed up well.

“There are a lot of good boys here, and a lot who are yet to come through.”

Sorry Dean, I believe he's a very good club player better than Botha, but no more. And as for Micky Young?? No No No

With all those players playing so well, it's no wonder Falcons are doing great this year. Oh wait...

He can't really have been serious about Micky Young can he? Not a bad player, but it would take at least half a dozen injuries to England's SHs before he got a look-in at the Saxons team?

Micky Young stopped to read a novel before each Falcons breakdown. He was terrible vs Sarries and a factor in why they lost.

Wilson at blindside is Falcons best hope of England representation this season. Quality player.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:In a better team he'd shine ala Brookes(who I don't rate too highly).

Why not? Our scrum has ripped apart every team since he joined and he's had a number of MOTM or close performances.

It's hard to forget 2 seasons of mediocrity from Brookes and I think he flatters somewhat in a very good pack. We got dismantled by every scrum last season with Brookes usually the TH. That same scrum with Jon Welsh at TH has held its own or got on top this season, actually dominating the Saints at Franklins.

You don't become an outstanding TH overnight and Brookes is well short there. Let's be honest, even Mafu'u looked like a top prop in that Saints unit and he's not a good prop.

I was pretty sure Saints had not dominated every scrum in matches I had seen. However did not see this game - but stats do indicate that Falcons had the upper hand.

Saints suffered a few pens at the scrum in the second half at the weekend. Brookes seemed to tire after 30 mins and the Saints scrum didn't look at potent until Hill added some fresh legs. Was an impressive opening 30 from Brookes.

That pretty summed Brookes up at Falcons. He'd huff and puff for 20-30mins, be decent in the scrum and put in some carries. I think the Saints front 5 is obviously helping him out more and he looks a better player around better players.

I don't think he's an international starter by a long shot and at most an impact sub. Cole & a fit Wilson are much more effective in the scrum and just don't need raw power for short periods to get at their opposition.

LT, I was as surprised as you are but we had dominance until the Saints bench came on in the scrum. We actually marched them backwards a few times and Brookes was pinged numerous times against Vickers who looked very poor when alongside Brookes last season.

Maybe every game is not accurate but Saracens game onwards with the exception of Glasgow which I missed.

Falcons game wasn't at Franklins though.

Scottrf wrote:Maybe every game is not accurate but Saracens game onwards with the exception of Glasgow which I missed.

Falcons game wasn't at Franklins though.

At MK bowl?

No But at MK yeah. The Barwell stand wasn't complete.

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Don't think it is guaranteed.  But, the expression about where there is smoke there is fire might apply here.  There is a lot of noise.  Hopefully 14 teams, but with an unbalanced schedule so we don't add matches.  

14 teams, no Anglo/Welsh Cup.

You are thinking 26 match season?  That's a lot of matches.
I thought the Anglo Welsh was OK once it found its stride as a semi-developmental competition during the Six Nations.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So:
Saracens
Bath
Leicester
Saints
Gloucester
Exeter
L.Irish
Sale
Falcons
Leeds
Bristol
Worcester
Quins
Wasps
Gloucester

Any other teams putting their name in the hat?

I wish they'd announce it now so us poor LI and Falcons fans could relax for the rest of the season ...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You can sign up to BT sports and watch online (I do this from the Middle East). There's also Bet365 who do every AP game.

Thanks Sgt, sorry for the late response. Don't think the BT sport option would be practical, got no home address in the UK anymore and think they would block it over here with another company having the rights. Bet365 could be an option but think I read the picture is pretty small or something? Do you have to use a VPN or anything?

B91212 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You can sign up to BT sports and watch online (I do this from the Middle East). There's also Bet365 who do every AP game.

Thanks Sgt, sorry for the late response. Don't think the BT sport option would be practical, got no home address in the UK anymore and think they would block it over here with another company having the rights. Bet365 could be an option but think I read the picture is pretty small or something? Do you have to use a VPN or anything?

I need a VPN from the middle east for Bet365 as betting sites are banned. You just need 5GBP in your account but yes the screen is small and I've not figured how to increase it on my Mac although I've heard you can on a PC.

To get BT Sports(who do free weekends quite a bit) you need a VPN with a UK server access. I use PureVPN and it costs me around 30GBP a year I think. You can get PureVPN on you all devices Mac/PC/Phone etc and have a few devices under the same subscription. The BT sports feed is excellent and pretty much like watching it on TV, just hook it via Apple TV etc and you'll not know the difference.

If you know somebody in the UK with a BT account you can use this as it can be used by multiple

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Don't think it is guaranteed.  But, the expression about where there is smoke there is fire might apply here.  There is a lot of noise.  Hopefully 14 teams, but with an unbalanced schedule so we don't add matches.  

14 teams, no Anglo/Welsh Cup.

You are thinking 26 match season?  That's a lot of matches.
I thought the Anglo Welsh was OK once it found its stride as a semi-developmental competition during the Six Nations.

Not my idea, but what I had read. The argument was that it actually frees up two weeks, and without the risk of automatic relegation development coudl still happen. However the sides pushing for top 4 and Europe spots may not be so inclined.

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Don't think it is guaranteed.  But, the expression about where there is smoke there is fire might apply here.  There is a lot of noise.  Hopefully 14 teams, but with an unbalanced schedule so we don't add matches.  

14 teams, no Anglo/Welsh Cup.

You are thinking 26 match season?  That's a lot of matches.
I thought the Anglo Welsh was OK once it found its stride as a semi-developmental competition during the Six Nations.

Not my idea, but what I had read. The argument was that it actually frees up two weeks, and without the risk of automatic relegation development coudl still happen. However the sides pushing for top 4 and Europe spots may not be so inclined.

Makes sense. I wouldn't mind seeing how a larger ring fenced competition will get on. I think that is the direction the Premiership will eventually go anyway. The possibility to allow other clubs into the Premiership always exists. With the 14 clubs, the geography of England is mostly covered.

I still don't like having so many matches.

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Don't think it is guaranteed.  But, the expression about where there is smoke there is fire might apply here.  There is a lot of noise.  Hopefully 14 teams, but with an unbalanced schedule so we don't add matches.  

14 teams, no Anglo/Welsh Cup.

You are thinking 26 match season?  That's a lot of matches.
I thought the Anglo Welsh was OK once it found its stride as a semi-developmental competition during the Six Nations.

Not my idea, but what I had read. The argument was that it actually frees up two weeks, and without the risk of automatic relegation development coudl still happen. However the sides pushing for top 4 and Europe spots may not be so inclined.

Ring fencing is only beneficial to those fortunate to be part of the process and then again the benefits are only worth it if utilised properly.

Will London Welsh be the main side to miss out? Will they fight the case with their team of lawyers?

Good coaching is very underrated as a factor for clubs doing well, the perception is that it's ££ and supposedly higher salary caps mean better results.

Not at Bath at the moment....

Exeter Chiefs are an example of a club who came into the AP with no top flight experience yet in just a few years they are title contenders. Baxter and his coaching staff have to take a lot of credit for that.

Would a side like Newcastle do better with a different DOR? Quite possibly.

My point is that ring fencing won't magically make sides like LI and Newcastle more competitive. It's an overall change in mindset.

Or mid table sides like Gloucester and Sale.

Gloucester are in my opinion underachieving with the amount of internationals in their squad.



You mention Brookes looking better for Saints, it's no surprise he signed for them, it helps boost his international prospects. Plus you don't factor in that Saints have a pretty good track record with developing front rowers.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

B91212 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You can sign up to BT sports and watch online (I do this from the Middle East). There's also Bet365 who do every AP game.

Thanks Sgt, sorry for the late response. Don't think the BT sport option would be practical, got no home address in the UK anymore and think they would block it over here with another company having the rights. Bet365 could be an option but think I read the picture is pretty small or something? Do you have to use a VPN or anything?

I need a VPN from the middle east for Bet365 as betting sites are banned. You just need 5GBP in your account but yes the screen is small and I've not figured how to increase it on my Mac although I've heard you can on a PC.

To get BT Sports(who do free weekends quite a bit) you need a VPN with a UK server access. I use PureVPN and it costs me around 30GBP a year I think. You can get PureVPN on you all devices Mac/PC/Phone etc and have a few devices under the same subscription. The BT sports feed is excellent and pretty much like watching it on TV, just hook it via Apple TV etc and you'll not know the difference.

If you know somebody in the UK with a BT account you can use this as it can be used by multiple

I have a couple of VPNs back to UK through my work. They are great for free over-the-air tv. Never tried to use someone's BT Sports log-in details. I had some difficulties using my old man's Sky Sports log-in from time to time.

'Good coaching is very underrated as a factor for clubs doing well, the perception is that it's ££ and supposedly higher salary caps mean better results.

Not at Bath at the moment....'

I thought that was pretty much universal? Why some are calling for higher caps to compete with the French. You can't have it both ways either; we all know Bath are cheating but I haven't seen proof yet!

What is pretty much universal? Can't have it both ways? What are you talking about?

All know Bath are cheating? Lots of speculation but very little facts. Perhaps they are but we don't know. You claim it's a fact when it isn't.

Higher £ mean more competitive. So why mention Bath?

Of course good coaching makes a huge difference.

However even great coaches can only polish the raw material they have and cannot turn turds into diamonds.

I'm sure some nice poster will share his details with you Doc.....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm sure some nice poster will share his details with you Doc.....

no 7 & 1/2 more ££ can mean more competitive but more ££ doesn't guarantee it.

You can buy an expensive high profile player and add them to your squad but if they don't gel/play well then it's a waste. E.g. Chris Jack at Saracens,Richie Gray at Sale etc.

A side that has good structure and coaches can make the most of the extra ££ but some can't.

As I said before, Gloucester have plenty of high profile players but I would say they are underperforming. I don't look at the likes of Laidlaw,Hook,Hibbard,Afoa,May,Morgan and Ksevic and think - Gloucester are so hard done by when they face the so called money bags clubs of Bath and Sarries.

Londontiger to some extent yes but that Exeter chiefs side who were promoted to the AP were made mostly of championship players. In their first season they comfortably beat Saracens away for example.

True but we've seen that having that big quality squad is big leg up. I agree with your Bath example by the way to an extent. They have spent over the cap, though they do have quality coaches as well. even with those advantages clubs can dip from time to time. I'd expect them in the mix come the business end.

This has gone a fair bit off topic now but might as well join in.

Increasing the premiership to 14 teams and dropping the anglo-welsh will not see more games. Each team will have the same number of definite games as they do now, and a handful will have fewer (due to no more semi/final for AW).

But the reality is that the lower clubs are ****ed anyway with the ridiculous increase in salary cap. They either lady of loose morals themselves out as some rich owners slaves (and hope like hell they don't get old and boring, dropped for a younger version). Or they flounder, losing any talent to other rich clubs and their season challenge is if they can finish a game within 30 points of their opposition.

If there is ring fencing I would do it at the pro level. Then again, I would also have strict financial limits on salary and spending as part of revenue, etc. So what do I know. The whole system is screwed and what the BT deal comes up and isn't replaced like for like (as it is ridiculously overinflated at the minute), those that rely on it will be even more screwed (as we all know the cap went come down will it?)

Hammerofthunor

You talk about the lower clubs. Surely they can help themselves with good coaching?

Geordiefalcon quite clearly believes that the Newcastle players are good but the coaching of Dean Richards is not good enough. Perhaps a change in personnel is needed.

It's important to get the best out of a side.

The RWC showed what good and poor coaches can do. Look at Japan,Scotland and Argentina - compare them to the shambles that was England.

If Japan can beat SA, Scotland can get within a whisker of beating Australia and Argentina can thrash Ireland then it's not out of the question that a smaller team can triumph with the right structure.

England had the money, the resources, plenty of depth, great support, favourable RWC schedule, home advantage - yet they failed miserably.

I don't think any club in Europe is unbeatable.

Not sure why you are reading the doom sermon.

The following sides have improved this season IMO:

Tigers,Exeter,Sarries,Wasps and Quins.

That's 5 teams.

Also the English sides have been doing well in the ERCC.

I don't completely disagree with every opinion you have. I think teams should be able to retain their academy products but then again you don't want to get in the way of players getting experience in higher level matches.

E.g. even though it's painful for Newcastle - Brookes playing for Saints is good for his international prospects. It's arguably not fair on Newcastle but I guess a solution is more compensation.

There are all sorts of things that clubs without sugar daddies (or 25k paying spectators) can do. However when one club spends £10m and another £5m there is a limit.

Would a side like Newcastle do better with a different DOR? Quite possibly.

I firmly believe yes now, but even more so his loyalty to John Wells.

Oh and the analogy with Japan is rather apt. they pulled off the biggest shock in Rugby history, but still failed to get out of their group. Individual upsets can happen often, but over a season size and depth of squad trumps the one off upset. After all 18 months ago London Irish beat Saracens at Allianz Park - but which team topped the league table?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Would a side like Newcastle do better with a different DOR? Quite possibly.

I firmly believe yes now, but even more so his loyalty to John Wells.

but a change of coaching will not see them at the top of the table.

Geordiefalcon quite clearly believes that the Newcastle players are good but the coaching of Dean Richards is not good enough. Perhaps a change in personnel is needed.

I strongly believe we have some very good players. To me its a massive coaching issue now. And trust me there are more and more Falcon fans getting a bit knarked aswell...

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Would a side like Newcastle do better with a different DOR? Quite possibly.

I firmly believe yes now, but even more so his loyalty to John Wells.

but a change of coaching will not see them at the top of the table.

No it wont...but it will see a massive improvement in performance, which in turn should improve results which in turn improves league position.

We made MASSIVE progress last year, playing some real quality rugby at times (accept there was still some dirge aswell) so how come we have gone so far backwards this season. It can only be coaching...and tactics.

Beshocked's point though is that coaching can turn a team into world beaters. Of course improved coaching can improve a team, but with half the budget up at Falcons compared to some teams, all improved performances will eventually do is lead to more player poaching and Falcons still at or near the bottom of the table.

Im not sure you'll see loads of poaching. We seem to be keeping our players at the moment - ironically due to Deans presence.

I would say we will never challenge until we have a budget that matches the top sides...but with the current side we should be higher and better than what we are...

Many might disagree with that statement, but we do have some good players.

Can I just say also in defence of Dean.

We had some staggering stats come out that something like 21 + players were away on international duty or injured for most of the preseason etc.

Aparently its only now that we have pretty much a full squad to choose from.

If that's true then it will have affected all the preparations massively. And ill hold my hands up and take back what ive said about Dean.

It just you never get ANY communication from them so you don't know what the situation is.

I think the issue is GF, that every club now has good players, so whilst it's easy to say a side should be doing better, that has to be set against what other sides are doing. We are in the same boat. I look at our squad and think there is no way we should have 0 points from 6 games, but the reality is that for whatever reason we have not been better than what we have faced.

Well that's true...