England Squad for the 6N 2016 #2

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

so what are the surprises, assuming that's about right.

Props. Hill's inclusion maybe, but several of us have been saying that none of the THs have really been putting their hands up. Hill has looked impressive for Saints certainly, and will be one of those Jones mentioned about "picking themselves" (with Thomas, Wilson, not doing enough).

Hookers. No surprises.

Locks. No Kitchener. No real qualms with the four who have been picked though. Itoje and Kruis have been the form locks this season, while Lawes and Launchbury formed a good partnership in 2014 when they last played together.

Flankers. No Kvesic. Obviously Jones is a fan of Clifford (there've been noises to that effect recently), while Fraser vs Kvesic is a very tight call. Fraser has certainly been in good form this season, and has managed a run of games without injury for a change, but Kvesic will certainly feel unlucky, particularly given Jones's preference for a traditional 7, which Clifford isn't really. Haskell maybe fortunate to be given another chance.

N°8. Vunipola an obvious pick, but a big surprise in Beaumont over Morgan. Haven't seen a huge amoung of Beaumont, but suspect Morgan is very much one of those Jones feels simply hasn't done enough to be included.

No surprises at SH.

Only two FHs, so no Cipriani. Maybe a tad surprising that 6 back three players are going to be picked. I know Goode can cover FH at a pinch, but... Haven't watched much of Sale this season, has Cipriani demanded inclusion?

Centres. The eternal IC question. Slade injured, 12T, Barritt and Burrell have all had chances and Jones obviously doesn't think they're good enough. Indications that he wants to go with a strong runner there in picking Hill/Devoto and (maybe) Tuilagi, though there's also the much talked about option of Farrell stepping in. None of the solutions are particularly convincing, and this is undoubtedly Jones's biggest conundrum IMO. No surprises with the OC picks.

Back three. With May out, there were always going to be some spots up for grabs, and I have no real problems with Ashton and Yarde being picked. Ashton has been in good form, and Jones must fancy he can get more out of him than Lancaster did, while Yarde is the sort of player who makes things happen. The other players pick themselves.

For me the only real surprises are:

Kvesic out while Haskell stays in. Possibly Eddie wants to limit the total number of changes, but surprised that Fraser, Clifford, Haskell and in effect Robshaw are all seen as ahead of Kvesic.

Beaumont and Hill. Unexpected but have both earned their places by outperforming more experienced options. I have been impressed by what I've seen of Beaumont and he offers a better all round game than Morgan, including lineout, without giving much away in the carrying stakes.

No Cipriani. I think we can all agree that's pretty harsh. Hope he gets a chance at some point.

No Barritt or Burrell, but Tuilagi in. Hard to see his plan for 12, but perhaps it's a question of finding the right linebreaker. That might suggest Hill rather than Devoto.

I read that he's only allowed to make 11 changes to the RWC squad for some reason ...

Very harsh on Kvesic for me. I'd have Cips too but we know what he can do and he's clearly 3rd choice 10 to call up if there's an injury

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Thanks god for that ignore button Now I don't have to read the constant trolling of English threads, what a great start to the day.....

So you finally found it. What took you so long?!!!! Thank the Lord, no more bleating.

Daily Mail, along with Telegraph one of the papers that used to get leaks, suggests the following:

POSSIBLE ENGLAND SQUAD
Props: Brookes, Cole, P Hill, Mullan, M Vunipola. Hookers: George, Hartley, T Youngs. Locks: Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes. Back row: Beaumont, Clifford, Fraser, Haskell, Robshaw, B Vunipola. Scrum-halves: Care, Simpson, B Youngs. Fly-halves: Ford, Farrell. Centres: Daly, Devoto, Joseph, Tuilagi. Back three: Brown, Ashton, Yarde, Nowell, Watson, Goode.

Glos:
No 8....Ben Morgan has played about 1.5 games for Glaws following being 'rested' following RWC and before that a broken leg recovery.
I think it may be wise to leave him be at club level for a while to rebuild form and fitness.
Kvesic....must be feeling quite disappointed. MOM vs Quins at recent sell out match at Twickenham, playing opposite Clifford. Eddie was there but seems to have drawn a different conclusion.

If information is correct my only real issue is Kvesic. It looks as though Jones is trying to encourage best players to move to one or two clubs.

gregortree wrote:Glos:
No 8....Ben Morgan has played about 1.5 games for Glaws following being 'rested' following RWC and before that a broken leg recovery.
I think it may be wise to leave him be at club level for a while to rebuild form and fitness.
Kvesic....must be feeling quite disappointed. MOM vs Quins at recent sell out match at Twickenham, playing opposite Clifford. Eddie was there but seems to have drawn a different conclusion.

Surely that should work for Manu as well who has been out much longer.

Kvesic, what does he have to do.

Beaumont..well I guess he's a more mobile "athletic" 8. Offers lineout capability at 8...something we haven't had for a long time.

It does apply to Manu also...agreed.
Not sure what Eddie is doing here, but fair point.

It just seems to me that everyone thinks Manu is this World class player that simply must be in the squad.

What he brings is unquestionable...but its not so urgent to rush him back when we have JJ and Daly at 13, and young Hill at 12

So here's the club breakdown:

Bath - 4
Exeter - 2
Harlequins - 6
Leicester - 4
Northampton - 4
Sale - 1
Saracens - 9
Wasps - 4

Majority from Quins and Sarries obviously, hopefully meaning we an take the good points of both clubs and leave the bad parts. With s little sprinkling of other teams in there too.

Good to see a Sale player in there representing the North!

I am really stunned Kvesic didn't even make the EPS. If it's correct that is.

I can only assume 7 is now a specialist position so he feels he can't let it take up too many places. So it was a straight shoot out between Kvesic and Fraser, and Fraser won. He was probably helped by knowing the coaches well already, looks like the only pick that isn't based on form to me. As Kvesic is the form 7.

Kvesic will be in the Saxons so can be called up.

I wonder if it's Kvesic's technique at the breakdown? He plants his hands over the ball on the deck a lot and this got hammered in the WC(See Dan Cole).

yappysnap wrote:So here's the club breakdown:

Bath - 4
Exeter - 2
Harlequins - 6
Leicester - 4
Northampton - 4
Sale - 1
Saracens - 9
Wasps - 3

Majority from Quins and Sarries obviously, hopefully meaning we an take the good points of both clubs and leave the bad parts. With s little sprinkling of other teams in there too.

Good to see a Sale player in there representing the North!

Cant believe Mark Wilsons not there

I kind of get the Clifford over Kvesic thing. It's really Fraser vs Kvesic as the best current 7 but for me Clifford is an excellent option for covering the bench. It doesn't necessarily mean he's the next best 7.

I agree...Clifford can cover 6/7/8 and aside from strong tackling, pretty good breakdown (not brilliant) etc he has that x -factor. That ability to run and very good handling. When Robshaw has put his graft shift in for 50/60 mins...he's a cracking player to bring on.

How often have we been shouting for better /more carriers in the team.

But I do feel for Kvesic.

As mentioned though..he'll be in the Saxons so can be promoted.

It is a tough choice. I've said before Fraser shades it for me purely as I think he's a better stealer, with Kvesic all round game slighter better. It's a nice problem to have.

The first choice backline is seemingly Robshaw, Fraser, Vunipola do we reckon? OR is there any way Beaumont can force himself in offering a v good lineout option and a bit more speed? Vunipola is the much better 8 for me but does it offer the best balance?

Well I guess the aim is to steal....if we have a specialist in there.

6 Robshaw
7 Fraser
8 Billy

Yeah I think thatll be it. And im happy with it. Very balanced. And ive said before, Robshaw could become more effective as a secondary turnover man, behind the specialist. Robshaw is good at turnovers...just not in the "specialist" bracket.

I recon Robshaw is going to be everywhere and people will still be talking down his efforts by the end of the 6N

Even if Jones was limited by the number of changes he can make, I would rather have seen Kvesic in the squad ahead of Beaumont (is selecting your bosses son, worse than selecting your own?). After all Haskell and Clifford offer bench cover for Number 8, and Billy will be the starter.

Is Haskell actually making the squad?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I agree...Clifford can cover 6/7/8 and aside from strong tackling, pretty good breakdown (not brilliant)  etc he has that x -factor. That ability to run and very good handling. When Robshaw has put his graft shift in for 50/60 mins...he's a cracking player to bring on.

How often have we been shouting for better /more carriers in the team.

But I do feel for Kvesic.

As mentioned though..he'll be in the Saxons so can be promoted.  

I think it's more likely that Billy or Fraser would be subbed rather than Robshaw, but it's good that Clifford covers all three positions (and is much less prone to brain fade than Haskell). Reflecting on it this morning, with Fraser's injury record there's a nonzero chance that Kvesic will get his opportunity sooner rather than later.

Beaumont I think is selected over Morgan on form, and to offer a contrast to Billy. He's got less raw power, but is quicker and offers a genuine third lineout option. That gives a little more optionality at 6. Morgan offers more power, but less at the breakdown than either Billy or Beaumont.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is Haskell actually making the squad?

According to the papers who get leaks, yes.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is Haskell actually making the squad?

According to the papers who get leaks, yes.

Wasps will have 4 reps then on Yappys list.

Wilson not in in baffling, especially when Itoje has made the squad?!?!

He's already good with much more potential. By the looks of it he's considered a lock, so it's the Kitchener exclusion which for me is the comparison.

As an onlooking Scot I am quite confused, surely tuilagi is not going to start at 12 vs us so that means it will be hill/Farrell/devoto ? Not exactly what Cotter was probably expecting as I thought Barrit and Burrell would be the front runners.

I think beaumont will be used at 8 to make up for itojes lack of height for a lock, means England have good line out options and a very mobile pack. Interesting but I am delighted kevesic has been left out!

Cockers recentyl came out and said that he could see Tuilagi moving to 12, in a similar way that Nonu did for the All Blacks.

I can't quite see it myself.

Out of interest, can someone explain to me why Tuilagi is being viewed as possibly making the switch to 12, whereas Joseph and Daly to a lesser extend are not considered as being able to?

bluestonevedder wrote:Cockers recentyl came out and said that he could see Tuilagi moving to 12, in a similar way that Nonu did for the All Blacks.

I can't quite see it myself.

Out of interest, can someone explain to me why Tuilagi is being viewed as possibly making the switch to 12, whereas Joseph and Daly to a lesser extend are not considered as being able to?

Numerous reasons I guess Blue.

Daly and JJ play all of their rugby at 13 and their primary skills are speed and footwork, this is negated somewhat in the IC position. You also get more big runners down the 12 channel and they're both not big guys. Imagine Daly outside Ford, both can't weigh much more than 13/14 stone. Daly's defence isn't fantastic but he's quick on the cover tackle which is handy at 13.

Guardian pretty much backs up the Mail squad - except they have either/or with Devoto and hill.

What has Devoto done to make the squad?

Im convinced the backs v Scotland will be:

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Nowell (he should be fit)
12 Farrell
13 Daly
14 Watson
15 Brown

Well at least they can get the Farrell at 12 thing done at dusted vs Scotland so for the rest of the tourney we can at least play a center there.

(hope eddy checked out what happened last time we had Ford and Farrell at 10 and 12....)

I know Care has been in decent form this season, but so has Youngs, who has been performing well in the ECC so at a higher level of competition, and has a good understanding with Ford.

Absolutely....
Then give it to Hill to make the spot his own.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is Haskell actually making the squad?

According to the papers who get leaks, yes.

Wasps will have 4 reps then on Yappys list.

Updated now

Until Slade takes it.

Not if Hill absolutely Nails it....

Then Slade can go to 10

Slade a big step up on Hill for me. Ford and Farrell are the 10s for the future seemingly.

LondonTiger wrote:I know Care has been in decent form this season, but so has Youngs, who has been performing well in the ECC so at a higher level of competition, and has a good understanding with Ford.

I'd be very happy to see Youngs / Ford. It's Youngs / Farrell that I don't think works - if Farrell plays 10, we need a 9 who is more unpredictable.

When is the press conference?

I do think there are going to be opportunities for a new star or two to appear (or at least a performance or two to get excited about followed by the usual over hyping then disappointment cos the guy doesn't run a couple of length of pitch tries every week)

I also suspect that if Itoje plays he will be solid but won't live up to the hype, yet..

yappysnap wrote:So here's the club breakdown:

Bath - 4
Exeter - 2
Harlequins - 6
Leicester - 4
Northampton - 4
Sale - 1
Saracens - 9
Wasps - 4

Majority from Quins and Sarries obviously, hopefully meaning we an take the good points of both clubs and leave the bad parts. With s little sprinkling of other teams in there too.

Good to see a Sale player in there representing the North!

The North should be fairly well represented here my friend: Kieran Brookes, Paul Hill, Josh Beaumont, Danny Care, George Ford and Owen Farrell are all Northerners. If only our clubs could retain their talent, teams like Yorkshire Carnegie could have a hell of a squad.

BamBam wrote:When is the press conference?

I think it is 2:00pm.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Cockers recentyl came out and said that he could see Tuilagi moving to 12, in a similar way that Nonu did for the All Blacks.

I can't quite see it myself.

Out of interest, can someone explain to me why Tuilagi is being viewed as possibly making the switch to 12, whereas Joseph and Daly to a lesser extend are not considered as being able to?

Numerous reasons I guess Blue.

Daly and JJ play all of their rugby at 13 and their primary skills are speed and footwork, this is negated somewhat in the IC position. You also get more big runners down the 12 channel and they're both not big guys. Imagine Daly outside Ford, both can't weigh much more than 13/14 stone. Daly's defence isn't fantastic but he's quick on the cover tackle which is handy at 13.

Makes sense- thanks Sgt Pooly.

yappysnap wrote:Manu Tuilagi who's just back from long term injury? Tuilagi who can't or won't pass. Tuilagi who has no step and just runs at people. Him at 12?

Ok

Its a waste of time thinking about him now. But he does did have an eye for a gap otherwise he wouldn't do have done the damage and score the number of tries he does did. (All that is history he does have to show he can do these things again)

He can of course truck it up and run into and sometimes over people the way that, say, JJ cannot. And that is therefore the default option as gaps don't always appear.

Its good to have both heavyweight and elusive options in the back line, and if it can be made to work a Manu/JJ  center combo could be very dangerous.

lostinwales wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Manu Tuilagi who's just back from long term injury? Tuilagi who can't or won't pass. Tuilagi who has no step and just runs at people. Him at 12?

Ok

Its good to have both heavyweight and elusive options in the back line, and if it can be made to work a Manu/JJ  center combo could be very dangerous.

Manu - JJ/Daly

I think JJ is probably the better runner, but I really like the options Daly gives you. Not only is he a good runner, but he has a monster boot, and is happy to drop a goal etc when its on.